Author Topic: Handi Switcheroo! (Read 1928 times)

Buffalogun · « **on:** September 22, 2004, 02:09:19 PM »

Hi All,

I have an NEF Synthetic Handi SB2 chambered in .45-70. The second character in the serial # is an "M", so I assume I can't have it mated to any of the high pressure chamberings.

Here is the plan!

I will order a Survivor chambered in .308 Win. I will switch the stocks and forends. This will give me a conventionally stocked, heavy Handi chambered in .308. :eek:

The .45-70 will then be in the Survivor stock and the storage compartment can hold extra weight to help tame the recoil from the .45-70. :eek:

Can this switch be made???

Thanks,
Buffalogun

MSP Ret · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2004, 04:13:34 PM »

As easy as 1-2-3. I am still looking for a Tamer buttstock for my 45-70. My plan is to carry extra 45-70 shells in the holders made for the .410 shells and to put a "storarm" forearm on in and use it for my "walking around" hunting gun....<><.... :grin:

shaner · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2004, 01:32:30 AM »

dont ya just love it when a plan comes togather?

as forthe tammer stock only thing with them is the length of pull is short

Paul5388 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2004, 05:31:46 PM »

Sometimes I wonder at the need for "taming" the recoil of .45/70's. That's not to say the recoil of some loads is quite stout, but I wonder at the need for quite so much energy, forward and backwards.

Most people will readily agree that a .454 "Catskull" with a 300 gr bullet travelling at 1100 fps is sufficient for most game a person will encounter. I shot some 300 gr in .45/70 today that were loaded with 16.5 gr Blue Dot. I haven't put them through the chrony yet, but the recoil was very light. This load is advertised at 1100 fps by Lee. Tomorrow I am going to shoot the same 300 gr Rem HP with 25.0 gr 2400 that is advertised at 1400 fps. That change will increase the recoil from 6.63 ft/lbs to 11.43 ft/lbs, which is close to double what it was today, but it's less than half the recoil of a 400 gr at 1400 fps (23.14 ft/lbs).

Handloaders can "tame" the recoil by selecting their loads based on recoil and the type of game being hunted.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 24, 2004, 03:06:28 AM »

Paul:

The need for taming the recoil...comes from wanting a flatter trajectory...hence the increased recoil...is it needed...depends on that paticular individuals wants and desires for his rifle...most folks who handle the large bores rather well without having a serious issue with recoil...know how to shoot them with out getting punished...watch some of the large bore shooters in the feild...they roll with the shot...and are not all tensed up and try to stay ridgid...same for large bore pistoleros...they allow the gun to roll up at the break...otherwise they would get hurt.......

Mac

Paul5388 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 24, 2004, 03:41:34 AM »

Mac,

I can understand what you are saying, but I have my doubts that a .45/70 will ever be "flat" shooting. The .45/70 has a trajectory about like the St. Louis Arch, regardless of the load and likely won't ever have one that would compare to the Eads bridge. :-)

If flatter is actually needed, a switch to .30-06 with a 200 gr bullet would probably be a better course to take, with less recoil. :wink:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 24, 2004, 04:36:02 AM »

Quote from: Paul5388

Mac,

I can understand what you are saying, but I have my doubts that a .45/70 will ever be "flat" shooting. The .45/70 has a trajectory about like the St. Louis Arch, regardless of the load and likely won't ever have one that would compare to the Eads bridge. :-)

If flatter is actually needed, a switch to .30-06 with a 200 gr bullet would probably be a better course to take, with less recoil. :wink:

Paul...

For the 45-70 and getting the velocities to make it somewhat flatshooting...you will have a-lot of recoil....that's a given...for some folks that are recoil intolorant...your suggestion of getting a 06 makes some sense...however...if a person truely wants a 45-70...and that person wants a somewhat flatter shooting load...that person is the one who makes that decision...you cannot make it for them....again...while it might not make any sense to you,it may to someone else,and suit their needs... I choose to shoot a hot loaded 300 grain Nosler parttiton load out of my Guide Gun...because of several reason...the somewhat flatter trajectory at 200 -250 yards is only one of those reasons and that's what I'm talking about here...does that make me right and you wrong...nope...just different ...I know what I expect out of my load...and achieve it...and I certainly wouldn't expect anyone else to even want to shoot it...and that's ok for me...I'm good with my load and set up out to 250 yards and have shot and practiced at that range enough to know that would be my limit...and I have the confidence in the load to know it will do the job...does it kick...yep...does it kick a-lot...yep...especially when I shoot it off the bench...but a bench rest gun it's not...and never designed to be.....some folks like to shoot big bullets...some...like to shoot big bullets really fast...those of us that do accept the realities...and learn to work with it...instead of against it...others can't...and that's ok too...

Mac

Paul5388 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 24, 2004, 06:03:52 AM »

Mac,

Yes, it's a matter of choice and there isn't any "right" answer. As I said, I was wondering, but even after your response, I'm still wondering. :-)

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2004, 08:26:04 AM »

Paul:

Well.....I sometimes look at it very siimalr to your veiw point on certain rifles...but then when dealing with a 45-70 and my rifle...no...I've tried some milder loadings and they just don't group the way I like,and it isn't intended for my boys to use.....so this is one of the other reasons I have for the increased velocity and resulting recoil...Ho Hum accuracy I can get with slower loadings and the Partition I use in it...but I just love it when I can clover leaf all my shots,and in my rifle...it needs that extra velocity to get there...... and,that to me is worth the price of the extra thump I get with it...but I really do see the need for some reduced loads for certain folks...they just want to shoot and shoot theirs and with the added expense of the extra powder and the added recoil... it makes financial sense to go that way...now for me...my 45-70 isn't a plinking rile...I have others that I utilize for that...and I'm working on some loads for my NEF Whelen to fit that bill as well using some pistol bullets for it...and this is something the kids can shoot in it...so there really is a need for reduced loads...please don't think I only shoot magnum loads...that's just not the case...

Mac

Buffalogun · « **Reply #9 on:** September 24, 2004, 11:53:52 AM »

Paul5388,

It is true that you can select your loads based on the amount of recoil you are willing to take. This type of approach is often used when selecting loads to be fired by children and small framed adults.

However, I am 50 yrs. of age., 5'8", with broad shoulders and weigh 225 #'s, yet I see no need to take anymore recoil than neccessary. The loads that produce velocities in the 1,300-1,400 fps. range with 300g-400g bullets in the .45-70 are approved for shooting in all rifle actions(even 100 yr. old actions). This means they are they can be safely fired in the weakest of actions. It also means they are the mildest of recoil.

I have used for target and hunting, rifles chambered in .243 Win., 6.5x55, .270 Win., 7mm-08, 7mm Rem. Mag, .35 Rem., .45-70 and both .45 and .50 cal. blackpowder rifles. Of all the deer that I have taken with the above cartridges, there is only one chambering that has dropped every deer taken in it's tracks. The .45-70! I have taken three deer with it since starting to use it about four yrs. ago, and none have taken even one step after impact. They just collapse where they are standing. I like this!

So, as mentioned in another post, to get the flatter trajectory one must accept the greater recoil. I accept the greater recoil in order to get the greater harvesting ability and flattest trajectory available from the .45-70. It is an individual thing!

Incidentally, if you want to really experience recoil, load the .45-70 with a 405g Rem. over 53g. IMR3031, in the Handi Rifle. This kicks the 405g out at about 1,700-1,800 fps.:eek:.

My other rifle chambered to the .45-70, is an 1875 Sharps. This is a 10 # rifle and in I shoot a 500g :eek: cast, flat-based bullet at 1,600 fps. This load is "the Bear with all his teeth and claws". It's a Buffalo load for a Buffalogun :lol: .

Buffalogun

Paul5388 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 24, 2004, 01:18:09 PM »

BG, it may be that you will see things a little differently when you get to be 60. :eek: I just don't seem to enjoy heavy recoil as much as I used to, especially at the bench.

Buffalogun · « **Reply #11 on:** September 24, 2004, 02:24:09 PM »

Paul5388,

You couldn't be more right. This is why I am trying to get out west and take an Elk, asap, while I still have a little get up and go. I just had to have the Sharps! Thought it would make a good Elk gun. Heck, I may even decide to go on a Buffalo hunt.

Until then(when I ain't got no more get up and go), I'll add a little weight to the Handi's stock and tame the recoil a bit. The Sharps shoots sweet with lesser loads.

Additionally, when that big 500g cast goes down range, it is about 5" high at 100 yds. and about 5" low at 200 yds. And, that's flat enough for me!

Buffalogun

Natman · « **Reply #12 on:** September 24, 2004, 03:10:30 PM »

My Handi weighs in at 7lbs even..With factory 300grain Winchesters it generates 22ftlbs recoil...compare that to my Mossberg 835UltiMag Turkey gun generating around 60ftlbs recoil and suffice to say I believe I would rather shoot some of the hotter loaded 45-70 ammo...I'll be ordering some 300grain nosler partitions sunday...Try to get a little tighter groups than what the factory ammo can offer..

Paul5388 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 24, 2004, 03:14:17 PM »

BG,

You've got the right idea! I started taking hypertension medicine 6 years ago and now I don't go very far unless it's on an ATV! I just don't operate very well on what is considered "normal" blood pressure.

I was just on a PM with Stuffit and found out on Point Blank I can reduce the recoil by almost 5 ft/lbs if I can get 1800 fps with a 300 gr using 55% less powder. That's close to a 25% reduction in recoil with the same bullet and velocity.

I loaded some 30% loads of Blue Dot tonight to test tomorrow. If the accuracy and pressure is OK, I'll work it up some more before I chrony the velocity.

JPH45 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 24, 2004, 04:27:53 PM »

An interesting topic evolution.....

Funny thing is this, Kill an elephant with a 475 Linebaugh revolver pushing 400 grain bullets at 1400 fps, and the world will tell you "Great Job"! Take a .458 400 grain bullet and drive it to a measly 1375 fps and everyone wants more gun!

While it may not mean much, I think that the 45-70 is a short range rifle. It does what it does, deliver very heavy bullets at low to moderate velocities better than any other chambering available. It does this in single shot or lever actions with barrels of 20" length nominally, weighing in at 7 pounds or less while offering "knock 'em off their feet" power in a package that can be easily carried all day, yet will penetrate a fleeing north bound buck completely from a southern vantage point. This is what the 45-70 does better than anything else available.

Long range shooting is the art of mastering trajectory. Boosting velocity in an effort to negate the rainbow of a brick traveling less than 2000 fps is faulty thinking at best. A 45-70, regardless of load or velocity will be shooting 10" or more low at 250 yards when zeroed at 150. When using standard velocity loads, this can approach 20" What this means is that regardless of how fast the bullet is traveling at the muzzle, it is shedding it's velocity so rapidly that hitting at extended range requires either rezeroing the sights, or so much time spent learning "Kentucky elevation" that one could buy a more modern flat shootin' iron with the money spent on ammo. For extended range shooting, I would suggest having 2 if not 3 zeros for the load and taping that info on the stock so that it can be rapidly applied in the field. Otherwise, get a flatter shooting rifle.

On this continent the 45-70 using 400 grain bullets at 1375 fps has killed everthing that walks. Everything that walks on this continent has been killed with 45 caliber 300 grain bullets at 1600 fps. I think a "low powered" 45-70 is a far deadlier rifle than it is given credit for in these days of the magnum.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 24, 2004, 06:08:06 PM »

JPH45:

First off...my logic or thinking isn't faulty by my standards...and since it's my standards I rely on...those are what I go by.

Secondly... booosting the velocity to 2300 fps...gives me a advantage over the nominal BP loading of a 405 grain bullet at 1300-1500 fps...and I can maximize my maximum point blank range accordingly to the kill zones I select...and that allows me not to worry about any Kentucky windage or guess work on hold over,and yes 250 yards is a resonable range for my paticular load... and I agree with you...the 45-70 is a great short range gun...it also does a great job further out too...my load with a 8" kill zone gives me a PBR of 230 yards...with a 10" kill zone...it goes to 250 yards...with a 12" kill zone it goes to 267 yards and at 250 yards it still is packing 1368 ft.lbs of energy...more than enough for whitetails...and that is sighting in 3" high at 100 yards...just like all of my other rifles...

Third....while the nominal BP loading with a 405 grain bullet might be your choice and satisfy your needs...it doesn't for mine...which brings me to...

Fourth....accuracy.....everyones rifle is different...and mine paticularly likes the Nosler partition at app. 2300 fps and doesn't group them no where near as good at the slower velocity and I would rather have a tack driver that kicks a-little harder... than a mild recoiling one that sprays the bullets in a 4-6" group anyday...and I can shoot these from a field position without any injury to myself or my rifle...as much as I choose to. Borrowing a phrase" There's only one kind of rifle that interest me...an accurate one...." suits me to a tee,and I didn't come to this loading by accident...I spent countless hours trying several differnt combinations to find the most accutrate load I could come up with...

I know how effective the slower loadings can be...but for my wants & needs they don't work..... We can argue this fact till the cows come home...and nothing will change that...at least till I get another rifle and see how it shoots...who knows maybe it will group better with the slower loads.....which means starting all over again from scratch .....

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** September 24, 2004, 06:27:50 PM »

Mac, what is the load you speak of? I too am interested in a more reach-out-and-touch-em load for my .45-70. In my elk hunting area I have the possibility of 200-250yd shots and would prefer a load that will get there without any holdover, I like to hold color, if you know what I mean, I don't want to hold 18" high to make a good hit.

Joel · « **Reply #17 on:** September 25, 2004, 05:20:05 AM »

I shot the Barnes 300 gr semi-spitzer at 2200 fps for a while and found it dropped only 6.5 inches at 200 yds, and grouped into 1.5 inches. Unfortunately it wouldn't expand at any range from point blank out unless it hit bone...being designed for higher velocities. The point is most 45/70's are flat nosed/round nosed bullets with lousy BC's even with the heavier bullets.
They don't shoot all that flat in the 45/70 anymore than they do in any other caliber. Understand there are full spitzers out there for it, but never have tried them. Shot the 300 grainers for 13 years at steadily decreasing velocites to meet my hunting needs...which the farthest I've ever shot ANY deer is 125 yds in 45 years of hunting. For my needs, loads around 1840 fps with any 300 suited. Recoil, if that is a big subject with you, was moderate with the 300's at just about any velocity. The only time I calculated it was with my 2200 fps load which generated 28.5 ftlb at 15 fps in my 8.2 lb handi.
This year, I've switched to the 400 gr Speer FN at 1750 fps, and THAT load will wake you up as far as recoil at the bench goes. Looking forward to what it does on deer. Funny thing; I've shot 22 deer with the 45/70 at mostly close ranges with a variety of 300 gr bullets, and the only ones' that ever dropped in their tracks were 3 that were hit either in the spine or had their necks broken. Didn't matter if the bullet was starting out at 1800 or 2300. The higher velocity ones just ruined meat at those heavy woods ranges with no apparent increase in "killing power". 'Course these central PA mountain deer are nice sized. Never had one run more than 50 yds though...all the others were heart/lung shot.

RussB · « **Reply #18 on:** September 25, 2004, 09:25:34 AM »

Quote from: Paul5388

BG, it may be that you will see things a little differently when you get to be 60. :eek: I just don't seem to enjoy heavy recoil as much as I used to, especially at the bench.

Paul...Funny how that age / recoil thingy works but, darn! I think you may be on to something.

Recoil is my biggest reason for going to cast bullets ONLY in my 45-70. Grouping is good, recoil is good, range is limited, and I'm one happy camper. That little Handi will kick your brains out if you let it....trust me on this, even with cast bullets. But ya gotta love 'em.
Russ

Paul5388 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2004, 10:03:12 AM »

Russ,

Here's what I'm talking about on recoil:

Quote

The numbers are:
17.5 gr Blue Dot
300 Rem HP
Starline brass
Win LR Staynless No. 7-111 (yellow and red box)
1326 fps average velocity at 15'
1351 fps corrected to muzzle velocity
1216 ft/lbs energy at muzzle
Taylor KO 26.52
9.55 ft/lbs recoil

Here's what the target looked like at 100 yards. The 4X scope probably has a lot to do with the horizontal stringing. I wasn't taking too much care with these shots, I probably had too much going on and it looked like rain at any minute.

I guess the group will get better when I increase the powder again! I think I can safely take Blue Dot up to 20.0 gr and about 1550 fps. The resulting energy is 1588 ft/lbs, but the recoil is only 13.22 ft/lbs. I just don't know the extra 250 fps in Rem factory loads is worth an additional 10 ft/lbs of recoil. :eek:

Buffalogun · « **Reply #20 on:** September 25, 2004, 11:18:15 AM »

Guys,

The three deer that I have taken with my Handi .45-70 have been taken with cast bullets. Two were taken with the Lee 340g FB and one with the Lee 405g HB. I have some other .458 moulds, one of which is the 500g that I use in the Sharps. This bullet is a long-range spitzer with a higher BC than most .458 bullets and it shoots pretty flat. But, I won't use it in the Handi.

I took the deer with both the 340g FB and 405g HB loaded over 25g IMR SR4759 and the velocities hover around 1,450 fps. This is a sweet shooting load and is effective. I use 50/50 Crisco/Beeswax for the lube. But, I'm thinking of trying the Hornady 300g. this year.

Oh yeah, I ordered the Survivor last Thursday!

Something else that I have noticed is that the bore of my Handi .45-70 looks as smooth as glass. I shot some of the 300g loads a couple days ago and could not find in jacket fouling. :lol:

Buffalogun

Paul5388 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 25, 2004, 06:34:46 PM »

BG,

True to what I said, the group got better with more powder.

This group was shot with 19.5 gr Blue Dot at 100 yards. I already have 20.5, 21.5, 22.5 and 23.5 gr loads ready to try tomorrow. I shot one 23.5 gr today, just to see if the gun and I would survive. :eek:

I'll probably set up the chrony and check velocities while I'm checking accuracy.

Buffalogun · « **Reply #22 on:** September 26, 2004, 02:16:48 AM »

Paul,

That newest group looks good. You might want to give SR 4759 a try. It gives good groups in my Handi.

Buffalogun

RussB · « **Reply #23 on:** September 26, 2004, 03:15:32 AM »

Quote from: Paul5388

BG,

True to what I said, the group got better with more powder.

This group was shot with 19.5 gr Blue Dot at 100 yards. I already have 20.5, 21.5, 22.5 and 23.5 gr loads ready to try tomorrow. I shot one 23.5 gr today, just to see if the gun and I would survive. :eek:

I'll probably set up the chrony and check velocities while I'm checking accuracy.

Paul, I personally find nothing wrong with your group. At least it rules out the possibility of the 4X scope being a problem.....one more controlled variable! Hang in there! You're looking good on paper!
Russ

Paul5388 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 26, 2004, 03:42:12 AM »

Russ,

I didn't think there was anything wrong with the scope other than not having enough magnification for my older eyes! :lol: It may help if I switch to another type target with a pronounced "cross" to help line up the scope. :roll:

Paul5388 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 26, 2004, 10:06:29 AM »

I posted some targets and chronograph results here if you want to view them. I thought the recoil numbers were quite iinteresting.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2004, 11:52:09 AM »

Here's what 20.0 gr Blue Dot, Win LR, 300 gr Rem HP, with R-P brass looks like at 100 yards. I haven't checked to velocity yet, but suspect around 1400-1450 fps. I think 1.125" is good enough for the purpose I have in mind!

RussB · « **Reply #27 on:** September 28, 2004, 12:50:04 PM »

"Here's what 20.0 gr Blue Dot, Win LR, 300 gr Rem HP, with R-P brass looks like at 100 yards. I haven't checked to velocity yet, but suspect around 1400-1450 fps. I think 1.125" is good enough for the purpose I have in mind! "

Paul, IMHO, your 100 group is GREAT! I get the same groups,
If.......I flinch just right, and get two friendly flyers. :oops:

You are to be complimented for your persistence. You hanging in there and getting the job done shows the old work horse is capable of some pretty good work.
I'm currently working on a load for a 482gr cast PL (Lyman# 458671) that is showing "one hole" promise. I will get some pictures up as soon as I can.
How are you holding up to the 20.0gr BD? I would suspect this to be an "all day load", but in all honesty I've never shot BD in a rifle.
Respectfully, Russ

Buffalogun · « **Reply #28 on:** September 28, 2004, 02:06:54 PM »

Russ,

Speaking of flinching, in our hunting club we have a kindly, aged gentleman who has a nerve problem. I don't know what he has and wouldn't ask him, but he sometimes misses and skips a little when he talks. And, you can see the shakes in his hands.

Most years he has someone else check his rifles for him before the season begins. Last year he took three bucks with one shot each using his new 7mm Rem Mag, while some other seamingly normal folks missed, using their favorite rifles! :eek:

Buffalogun

Buffalogun · « **Reply #29 on:** September 28, 2004, 02:15:19 PM »

Paul,

I don't know what your purpose is, but that group looks fine to me. And, it is dead on at 100 yds. I have also a 4x scope on my Handi and I think it is just right. By the way I have decided to buy fixed power scopes from now on! I think I'll move up to 6x for bottlenecked cartridges, though.

Buffalogun