Author Topic: Brown bear and hand guns- still think its a dumb idea? (Read 10093 times)

tundragriz · « **Reply #30 on:** October 06, 2004, 02:25:30 PM »

I've seen this debated at least a dozen times on different forums. I am not saying there aren't any cases, but I personally cannot recall any, and no one has posted a verifiable instance where a handgun carrying person has been killed.

If there are cases then it must be at least a 10 to 1 ratio where the handgun has worked. There are many verified instances where a handgun has been used to save an attack victims life. Some have been mauled but ultimately the bear was either fended off or mortally wounded while the attack was happening.

Most bear attacks happen instantly and with no chance for pre-emptive action. Some maul victims report not even knowing what hit them. Some of these attacks happen to hunters carrying long guns and not a single shot is fired.

I don't believe it comes down to skill after contact is made, much of the evidence suggests that the people that have defended their life had no special skills, they just happened to have a handgun. If a bear takes a person down anyone can point a gun at 1 foot or less and just keep firing. Of course a single shot to the nervous system would be best but apparently multiple non-lethal point blank hits have effected enough trauma to dissuade the bear and save a life. Again, there are cases confirming this.

Sometimes the bear is found dead at the scene, sometimes they run off and are found dead in nearby brush, sometimes they run off never to be found, but the person survives the incident.

I carry a Taurus 41 mag titanium at 21 ounces. Only used it once to persuade an overly curious griz from walking alongside my daughter and I while backpacking in the Brooks range near Anaktuvuk.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #31 on:** October 06, 2004, 02:56:03 PM »

I shot 2 bears with the bow this spring and watched one more shot. What was amazing was the speed and quickness of what appeared to be slow lazy animal suddenly turned into a dragster.

When they decide to act and you don't know they are there, almost anyone is in trouble.

This fall out on Hichenbrooke my partner and I neared a salmon stream and could hear and smell the fish. Trails rubbed bare everywhere. With only a 30/06 and a .308 we retreated even before we saw the bears. Moments latter we could hear a cub bawling on the stream. Wise decision I think on our part. Avoidance

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 07, 2004, 10:27:41 PM »

With all the talk lately about the futility of a handgun in bear defence I thought I would try to check myself and my ability to draw and shoot my 4" 629. I had my 629 in my shoulder holster and had a guy say "NOW", I pulled and fired all six shots as fast as I could aim and shoot. I did this twice in a row at 15 yards and the target below shows my results.

Mind you it wasn't any champion speed shooting, more like a one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and-five-and-six. I learned long ago in pin shooting that blazing away as fast as you can jerk a trigger doesn't help you any. In all honesty I couldn't accurately fire as fast as I would like to, about half as fast as I can accurately unload a 8rd clip out of one of my 1911s, but six shots didn't take me more than 4-5 seconds. I would also like to see my groups shrink up a bit more, I don't know where those three flyers came from.

The other guys at the club seemed to think that this was pretty good but I was a little more critical of my abilities. I know that in a high stress situation that group will at least double, maybe triple in size. I normally consider myself a fairly good shot with a handgun. I have shot a lot of pin matches and that really helps with fast accurate shooting. The main thing that todays little experiment taught me is that I need a lot more practice with my 44. I have been shooting 100-200 rounds a month thru it, while better than none its just not enough. If I am going to trust it to possibly save my life. Judging by my performance today i think that realisticly I have probably about a 30% chance of making a CNS hit on a bear, and probably 3 or less shots before he would get to me from 20 yards. I still think it would be faster than a securely slung shotgun or rifle though. Maybe not best but better a lot better than nothing.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #33 on:** October 11, 2004, 05:27:06 AM »

Looks like dinner on the table to me. Good shooting. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #34 on:** October 12, 2004, 09:18:22 PM »

The Bear, how much distance do you suppose a charging bear can cover in 4-5 seconds? I think I'd rather get off one good shot with a 375 H&H.

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #35 on:** October 12, 2004, 11:13:38 PM »

Hmmmm....let me think about it. Would I rather get one good shot with a 375 H&H vs 3-4 with a 44 mag??? Of course I would rather get a shot off with a heavy rifle than a handgun! Heck I'd rather get off one shot with a 30/06 than 3-4 with a 44 mag. Undoubtably any rifle would be better at stopping a charging bear.

The thing is that the nature of man is to leave that rifle sitting against a tree, or in the boat instead of carrying it with you all the time. After a few thousand hours of not having any trouble with bears you tend to get "lazy" for lack of a better word. A pistol is also a lot easier to shoot when your laying on your back being mauled too. I am just way more likely to be carrying a handgun than a rifle. Don't get me wrong, there IS a rifle in the boat, maybe even against a tree nearby, but the handgun is always on me.

Admittedly I have a lot of practicing to do but I am very sure that having a pistol on me is better than a rifle or shotgun on the bank. Just for kicks strap a rifle across your back, not just loosly slung but snugged down tight enough that it won't keep sliding around or interfere with fishing and see how fast you can get it into play. I garantee you that it takes that long just to get the long gun out.

I have actually seen first hand how fast a bear can be. They are unbelievable animals, truely awesome. I have a lot of respect for them.

dabigmoose · « **Reply #36 on:** October 13, 2004, 02:51:49 AM »

:grin: FINALLY
You just saved me from having to post that about why carry the hand gun .Its on you 24/7. Also charging Brown Bear A CNS SHOT IS A MUST!
being complacent is a human trait

Dabigmoose

Rmouleart · « **Reply #37 on:** October 13, 2004, 04:35:03 AM »

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Aim small hit small RAMbo.

RaySendero · « **Reply #38 on:** October 13, 2004, 05:24:04 PM »

Thanks all for the good read.

Have never been to AK but judging from the arguments presented here I;

1st - See the need to bring a gun to a bear fight! (Handgun better than no gun).

And

2nd - Wouldn't care less what the neighbors think of the shotgun or rifle I'd carry!.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #39 on:** October 13, 2004, 05:37:01 PM »

At least no one has stated that pepper spray and wearing little bells is better than a firearm, of any kind.

I heard that the bell thing was actually started as a joke. It was actually such a bad joke that professionals tested it thinking it had merit.

Actually.............for animal rights activists..........they should wear little bells as protection. :roll:

I am certainly going to look at the new S&W .500 with the 5" barrel and the muzzle break. It might be the ticket if a person can survive shooting it.

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 13, 2004, 06:46:35 PM »

Dave-

I haven't seen the 5" version of the 500 yet. I was looking at the 4" version today. I had also been interested in the 6.5" PC version. The 4" model 500 is actually pretty well balanced and from all the charts that I have seen on the 4" 500 are on average only 166fps slower than the 8 3/8" barreled version.

I just put a set of square butt finger groove ahrends grips on my 4" 629. They fill out my hand a little better than the round butt grips and should make the full power loads more controlable.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #41 on:** October 13, 2004, 07:10:02 PM »

My error. I thought it was a 4" with a 1" compensator.

But it was a 3" with a 1" compensator or 4". Twelve hour teaching day today so I get one error allowed today.

Should be a great packing gun though. I know someone who has a .445 SuperMag for sale also. Since I have a Contender barrel in that cal. I am thinking on it. We have a 200 yard gong at the range here and the .445 rings it pretty clear.

I am like you and carry a 6" 629 in .44 now with 300 grain hardcasts.

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #42 on:** October 14, 2004, 12:06:52 AM »

I was at a gun shop in anchorage today and saw a guy walk in and buy both a 4" 500 S&W and a 329pd at the same time. I guess he was in the pistol buying mood. I got the square but ahrends grips from him for a box of shells. It was a good deal for both of us, he would never use them and its a lot cheaper than buying a new set for me. Those 4" 500s are nice but I wonder how easy it would be to make repeated shots. You might be just as well off with your contender as a DA 500 that is uncontrolable.

S.B. · « **Reply #43 on:** October 29, 2004, 04:59:23 PM »

Thebear_78, You might just have something there? Maybe we should start shooting at least a couple of tables of pins, at each pin match, with our dangerous game carry revolvers. I have shot pins with my .44, but not with the idea of practicing for the wolf at the door.

Thebear_78 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 29, 2004, 06:25:44 PM »

SB-

I really feel my background with pin shooting helps me a lot with fast paced/stressed situation shooting. I have 10 pins that I will regularly take to the range with me and shoot off an old folding table. It is amazing how humbling a situation people can find themselves in when they miss all 5 bowling pins at 7 yards. If nothing else it helps you learn how to deal with recoil and faster follow up shots.

tundragriz · « **Reply #45 on:** November 04, 2004, 12:34:25 AM »

I use a Taurus Titanium 41 mag. I am usually backpacking when I carry it. This is how I practice.

I have a creek on my property with fairly steep banks. I put the backpack on with a 50 pound sandbag in it. This is also my get in shape rig. The 41 is holstered on the waistbelt. I take an old volleyball/basketball/soccer ball and throw it as hard as I can up the bank, as it rolls and bounces back towards me, unhloster and start firing.

A significant amount of stress is created as you are off balance from throwing the ball as hard as you can especially with the weight of the pack. You can't throw it very far so you have to unholster and fire very fast.

A word of caution- "ONLY" fire in double action. Originally I was cocking it as I was bringing the gun up -BIG MISTAKE- I am right handed and use my left hand to guide the gun up for a double handed hold. The gun went off at about half draw while my left hand was still around the end of the 4" barrel. To my elation I only received 2nd degree burns on the inside of my palm and fingers, ached up to my elbow, but still had all fingers. Now I only fire double action in this mode.

I always search yard and garage sales for old balls. Please no comments on that last statement.

S.B. · « **Reply #46 on:** November 04, 2004, 12:55:20 AM »

tundragriz, sounds like you need to start out a little slower, if for no other reason than to save your own body parts! We used to get the same kind of shooters in the action matches. When they first started shooting, they invariably wanted to be the fastest gun in the west. Know your own limitations.

Sourdough · « **Reply #47 on:** December 01, 2004, 11:25:14 PM »

Dave: Your mentioning the little bells makes me laugh. I remember in the late 70s running into groups of young women, hiking in the Keni mountains. They were all wearing little bells to alert the bears that they were in the area. Don't know what the bears thought, but it sure scarred the heck out of my horses.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #48 on:** December 02, 2004, 05:24:24 AM »

I think anybody would prefer to be able to use a rifle, that's why I have a Marlin 1895GS 45-70 or a Rem 700 375 RUM or my 18.5" barreled Rem 870 12 gauge just to name a few of the long guns that I would carry.
In many of my bear encounters my rifle is not in my hands or I'm carrying other equipment at the time. That's why I carry a 7.5" barreled Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull with 330gr hard casts @ 1615fps, 360gr hard cast @ 1520fps or 395gr hard casts @ 1415fps.
Due to the amount of time that I am in the bush I have been close to over 70 black bears this year and having a powerful handgun definatly makes me feel safer.

:shock: Am I? :shock:

:lol: Beats a stick or a knife......... :lol:
Cam

Dand · « **Reply #49 on:** December 02, 2004, 06:14:53 PM »

Man, its still going!

Bells, seems like a few years ago a researcher set up bell along a bear trail, then ran a string to an observation point well off the trail. When a bear approached the bell was rung and the reaction noted. I understand that most times there was NO reaction. I sure wish I knew the source of this so I could verify it and give a citation.

Camp cook, if you're packin that Super Redhawk day in, day out I figure you could just wrassle those bears down! :lol: Makes my lower back hurt just to think of packing that much iron. I don't enjoy my 4 inch SW 57 and I use a bandolier for my redhawk or bisley.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #50 on:** December 02, 2004, 07:04:05 PM »

Dand:

I remember the same thing about the researcher. I'll see if I can find it.

Hell, back in New York I was hunting deer within 150 yards of a guy building a porch, running a compound miter saw, hammering and driving his truck around.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #51 on:** December 08, 2004, 02:31:18 PM »

Quote from: Dand

Camp cook, if you're packin that Super Redhawk day in, day out I figure you could just wrassle those bears down! :lol: Makes my lower back hurt just to think of packing that much iron. I don't enjoy my 4 inch SW 57 and I use a bandolier for my redhawk or bisley.

Dand.... I should mention that I have bears so close to me sometimes that I think I may have to wrestle them. :lol:
I'm 45 years old, 6' 2 1/2" tall and weigh 215lbs. I got married for the second time 2 1/2 years ago and my wife is 30 years old. I'm not in as good of shape right now as I should be but that is because I'm not jogging 5 to 6 miles 3 times a week which I could do in an hour or swimming 1.5 miles twice a week. It was taking me 1 hour to swim 1.5 miles. This is when I'm not working in the bush where I always have at least a 30 pound pack on with my hiking and working gear in it as well as I usually have my Marlin 1895GS with me.
I live in South Western British Columbia where all of our mountains are extremely steep. When the big bears are sleeping I may pack my Colt Delta Elite or Glock 20 10mm handguns instead, I also shoot Cowboy Action competition so I have 2 s/s Ruger Bisley Vaquero's in 45 Colt which I load up for bush carry as well.
The thing about the SRH is that when I pull the trigger it fires and if I ever have to take my 6 I just reload quickly with 6 more with a speed loader, that is if I have time.
No jams it just goes bang!

Cam

S.B. · « **Reply #52 on:** December 15, 2004, 06:03:26 PM »

Quote from: Thebear_78

SB-

I really feel my background with pin shooting helps me a lot with fast paced/stressed situation shooting. I have 10 pins that I will regularly take to the range with me and shoot off an old folding table. It is amazing how humbling a situation people can find themselves in when they miss all 5 bowling pins at 7 yards. If nothing else it helps you learn how to deal with recoil and faster follow up shots.

An interesting story: First pin match I ever shot was with several friends. One of my buddies was military and prison guard (Larry) all in one. Range officer said to knock all the pins off the table, quick as possible, fastest time wins. When it was Larry's turn he made ready and on the buzzer drew his pistol and had an A.D. (accidental discharge) shot one of the legs out from under the table and the range officer was so shook up, he let Larry's time of . 65 seconds stand and he won the match? Larry's time has never been beat, not even by Rob Latham! True story.
By the way, Dand, excellent thread. I read it with much interest from the view point of people who live in bear country. thanks.

TimWieneke · « **Reply #53 on:** December 23, 2004, 06:23:53 AM »

Very cool story. Sound like a 1-gun type of guy.

As to handgunning for brown bear - it's a life goal for me. I did my first handgun hunt for feral hogs from the ground about a year ago and learned some very important lessons about dangerous game handgunning from the ground. I have some more years to put into my training in it before I go for the real big guys but I'll get there.

Tim

S.B. · « **Reply #54 on:** December 26, 2004, 12:24:50 AM »

Larry is an excellent shot, and a safe one to boot and served with some of the first combat troops in Vietnam. Pressure can be a strange thing. Hard to simulate the adrenalin rush that comes in the heat of a real battle and he has seen the elephant.

S.B. · « **Reply #55 on:** January 18, 2005, 07:39:07 PM »

Quote from: TimWieneke

Very cool story. Sound like a 1-gun type of guy.

As to handgunning for brown bear - it's a life goal for me. I did my first handgun hunt for feral hogs from the ground about a year ago and learned some very important lessons about dangerous game handgunning from the ground. I have some more years to put into my training in it before I go for the real big guys but I'll get there.

Tim

I don't think we're talking about bear hunting here, but about being hunted by bear or why it's a good idea never to be unarmed in bear country. There is a difference.

Spyro Andes · « **Reply #56 on:** January 24, 2005, 11:03:24 PM »

The Bear,

I hear you.

For a gun to be effective, it has to be on you.

On the horse, back in the boat, over on the bank & etc makes that weapon useless. Other than to mark your grave.

In most situations, I think that a handgun is more than enough because it is ease for it to always to be carried.

No if I was going into an area or situation that I knew was at higher risk... It is time for a rifle.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #57 on:** February 23, 2005, 12:21:06 PM »

I got a late post here. I'm with lawdog. Best thing to do with a handgun is shoot your partner in the foot then run like hell! If you live in bear country, you learn to live with bear's. A bear hanging around justify's caring a rifle. Take a trip into bear country, carry a rifle. If your going fishing, carry a fishing rod!

I've hiked into a number of remote areas in Alaska and, once I got over the hebe jebe's, never felt the need to carry a gun unless I was hunting.
spent time fishing for Dolly Varden down by Portage, actually up river a couple mile's. Saw lot's of big bear track's but never bothered by them.

Probally the most dangerous place is the most northern city in the lower 48, Anchorage. To many people, to much trash to attract bear's, lot's of moose in town. There the stage is set for trouble.

Would I carry a handgun? Hell no!If I'm worried about it, I'm carrying a rifle. The rest of the time I'ed pay attention to where I was and make enough noise to warn a bear off. All those people in such close proxsimity with bear's at McNeil Fall's and there has never been an incident. If you treat bear country like Central Park, you may well be on the menu.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #58 on:** February 24, 2005, 04:28:02 PM »

Those of us that live, work, and recreate in big bear country certainly appreciate someone from Oregon telling us what works and what doesn't. My goodness, what was I thinking all those years and in all those circumstances where carrying a long gun was just not possible.

Want to tell us how to manage our wildlife, or talk about our wolf control program? Certainly us residents know nothing.

Pretty audacious, don't you think?

victorcharlie · « **Reply #59 on:** February 25, 2005, 02:34:07 AM »

I went to the range a month or so ago and shot a buddies 500 S&W several times....IMO...with the hot loads a fast second shot would be hard to do......The milder loads arn't real bad, but with the heavy bullets the gun just plain hurt my hands and I had gloves on.......Fully loaded it's no light weight, at over 4 pounds......I think, with a pistol that big, I'd have a hard time finding a comfortable way to carry it all the time.........At least for me, lots of practice would have to be done before I could be comfortable with fast shooting........That said.....I don't think it's the gun for me!