Author Topic: 30-30 semi-wildcat?  (Read 2755 times)

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Offline CullenH

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« on: September 27, 2004, 01:08:08 PM »
It is my understanding that the limiting factor in reloading for the 30-30
handirifle is not in the strength of the rifle but in the strength of the
30-30 case itself.  It is walls are too thin to load above factory pressures.

Since, as I believe, the 30-30 was formed by necking down the 38-55
and the 375 Winchester is a slightly shortened 38-55 and the 375 case
has thicker walls for higher pressures, why can't the 375 be formed into
30-30 brass. It would seem to me that the new cases could then be
loaded to increased pressures and therefore higher performance.

The resulting case might be a little shorter than the original 30-30
but this shouldn't be a problem in a single shot rifle.

Does this make any sense or am I all wet?

Thanks for any opinions.
old goat

Offline Leftoverdj

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2004, 02:33:32 PM »
Sounds to me like a lot of work for problematic results. Sure, you could jack pressures up a bit in the reformed cases and get decent case life, but I doubt you could get much more than 150 fps gain before you ran into sticking cases. Maybe less because you would still have the .30-30s limited powder capacity.
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Offline handirifle

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2004, 03:42:27 PM »
Cullen
I agree with leftover.

The 30-30 case will take a lot more pressure that factory loads and the leverguns are usually the limiting factor.

If you want to push the most from a 30-30 go with the Ackley Improved version and experiment with your loads.  I think you'll find case capacity the biggest limit.  The AI will help on the pressure end as well with less bolt thrust.

The other way is real expensive.

I have a 375 and I wonder if you're willing to pay $15 for 50 pieces of brass.  You could buy several hundred 30-30 cases for that.
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Offline JPH45

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2004, 06:03:47 PM »
My experience so far though limited as yet is that as soon as you hit 2400 fps, brass starts sticking. Now keep in mind that this is neck sized brass only, and it has not occured with brass that is once fired and necksized. Some cases will go as many as three firings before sticking, but they are the exception, not the rule.

The AI is probably the best way to get greater velocity out of the 30-30, but I am pretty sure that any velocity increase that is over 150 fps is also exceeding SAAMI pressures. Since the AI is not a cartridge covered by SAAMI, that may not matter to you. The Handi will handle far more than the 30-30 can deliver, but as will be seen, faster is best approached another way.

Case life so far has been very good, and I doubt that the brass will fail after 3 or 4 firings because you are raising pressures, even to as much as 50,000 psi, you will just find that case life is shortened.

Last, driving Hornadys SST 150 grainer at 2365 fps from my Handi using BL-C2 equivilent surplus powder, the trajectory is +2 at 100 and -2 at 200, zero at about 170 yards. The velocity is within SAAMI specs, and the pressures are too, BL-C2 will easily do this. 748 will probably come close as will Reloder 15. A simple bullet change gives the 30-30 a 50 yard increase in point blank range in the Handi and is probably equal to an  increase in pressure driving those round nose bricks.

There are people who offer pressure testing of ammuntion, but I can only tell you to do a google search to find them, unless someone here has contact info. It would be worth the expense just to know you are not operating with proof quality ammo. I wouldn't be afraid of using new or once fired 30-30 cases at a pressure 50,000 psi, but the rule of thumb is that it takes a 6% increase in pressure to realize a 3% increase in velocity. This means that  to realize a 3% increase of velocity over 2350 fps (70.5 fps) a pressure of 35,000 psi must increase 2100 psi to 37,000 psi.

Now carry that to its logical extreme, a 30% increase in pressure to 45,500 psi in theory yeilds 350 fps or an increase to 2670 (assuming a 150 grain bullet and that reality matches theory) This puts you at starting velocities for a 308 driving a 150 grain bullet and in the maximum we would expect from a 303 Brit or 30-40 Krag.  Increasing the pressure to 50,000 psi will still leave you inside 308 velocities and never quite equaling them, using 50,000 psi as a ceiling you can only gain another 140 fps or so from the 30-30 case or 2810 fps. We are now approaching max 308 velocities from a 30-30 case and are well into 30-06 velocity territory while the 308 operates at nearly 60,000 psi to get us in this velocity range. Obvioulsy, the math tells us we don't want to go here.

The 30-30 is very good at what it does, being an accurate short range cartridge that is mild in recoil. If you need more than the 30-30 delivers, the logical way to get there is with more gun.
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Offline Donaldo

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2004, 06:16:21 PM »
JPH45
Excellent, couldn't have said it better myself.   :-)
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Offline Buffalogun

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2004, 02:39:42 PM »
JPH45,

I think the increase in velocity of the Hornady 150g SST over the 150g RN is because the Hornady spitzer has less bullet metal contacting the bore than the RN. Thereby offering less resistance!

I have both the 30-30 and the 30-30AI. I think the 30-30AI is the way to go! Even, if you don't load it to it's max potential, it will still yield a substantial increase in performance over the std. 30-30.

My 24" Contender in 30-30AI will put out 150g bullets at 2,700-2,800 fps. all day long. But, I could load them to 2,600 fps. and still have a good advantage over the std. 30-30! Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 grainers are good for 2,900 fps.

Bear in mind that P.O. Ackley chambered the 30-30AI in lever-action rifles! :eek:

Just a thought!

Buffalogun 8)
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Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2004, 03:38:20 PM »
CullenH.
There is no problem with the 30-30 case when converted to 30-30 AI.
This case has been used in HBR competition for a long time in the shape of the 30Aardvark propelling a 125-130gr match bullet 3000 ft plus.
Cases have been reloaded so many times that they actually wore out the barrel. This of course is with bolt guns. These rifles are usually loaded to about 55000 psi and produce super accuracy.

The big hang up with the Aardvark is converting the case to a rimless one, which has to be done on a lath. Of course this is strictly a competition senario and is about winning. The Aardvark has quite a reputation.

The handi will easy take 49500cup with an 30-30AI case and that will put it in the lower bracket of the 308 Win. If there ever was a suitable case for the AI converison in a Handi, the 30-30 would be the one. The minimal taper of the AI case will stop most of the sticking with a smooth chamber.

This all has been yaked about before, nothing new here. Just make sure the 30-30 shoots well before turning it into an AI. Otherwise there is no point doing it. Fred M.
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Offline JPH45

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2004, 03:57:23 PM »
Buffalogun, if you study the manuals, driving the Hornady SST 150 at 2360 fps is not an increase in velocity over any standard loading of a roundnose 150 designed for use in the 30-30 and tubular magazines. Winchester selss factory ammo whihc does 2450 from a 24" tube. The increased range offered is a result of the ballistic effeciency of a good spitzer design, not velocity. I'll stand by what I have said, taking the 30-30 to 50,000+psi will result in velocities around 2800 fps. I also stand by the idea that there are better ways to get there.

 Ackley did indeed intend his improved 30-30 for use in leverguns, as well as several other AI's, the 38-56 AI comes readily to mind. However, I doubt that Ackley intended for his designs to be used as proof level daily fodder in a rifle. Ackley lived in a time very different from our own, and there was a very different approach to cartridge design in those days. Many were products of military designs. The 303 Brit, 30-40 Krag, are ready examples, and the 38-56 in it's original form another from the civilian market. The generous taper of the case was to aid extraction. Ackley simply acted on the obvious and exploited the available capacity of a blown out case. He didn't do anything new, in fact the military had experimented with near straight case designs as early as the 1910's. Being conservative in orientation lead them at that time to remain with tapered cases for full extraction reliability. Ackley knew there was a lot of difference between the performance expectation of a sportsman and a military trials board. All that is just one side of the development of the straight bodied short neck centerfire case and has little to do with the fact that exceeding SAAMI pressures and velocities takes one into a no mans land. I'm not saying don't. I'm just saying that the better way to get to 2800 fps with a 30 caliber 150 grain bullet is with a 308 or 30-06. We have been designing arms and munitions to do that very thing for nearly 100 years now, and the 30-06 from 1906 and the 308 from circa 1955 have a solid and proven track record. Souping up a 30-30 case to get there is not an improvement on the concept.
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Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2004, 08:22:15 PM »
30-30Ai at 50000PSI is not a proof load in a Handi designed to handle 270Win and the like which throttle at 60000psi in a standard load. The case will take it for sure. We are not talking about using these loads in an ancient black powder low carbon metal relic. This is the 21rst century.

The 30-30AI is a fine cartridge, we all know you can do more with a bigger case, more powder , more recoil, more of everything, but with a hell of lot less efficiency. Whats wrong of getting 2800 ft with a Barnes x 130gr triple shock and 40gr of powder? This is a lot more than a 100 ft.
Some day I run some Quick Loads on this cartridge using 50kpsi.

Who needs a 25-06 when you can get 3200ft with a 100gr bullet in a dinky shortened 250Sav AI case and 23% less powder than the 25-06. Oh ya the 06 is gettig 150 ft more velocity if you are lucky. Yes go ahead and burn 60gr or more powder.

If the modern shooting fraternty had all nay sayers like this board has we would never had a 6PPC or a 30BR 6BR 30x46 6.5x284 and so many others. The guy wants a 30-30AI give him some good pointers and let him enjoy this wonderful cartridge notwithstanding Ackley's unknown.  intentions. Fred M.
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Offline handirifle

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2004, 07:51:39 AM »
Fred
Those are all good points.  Some of the very ones I am running through my head in my, so far, planned conversion of my Savage from 30-06 to 338-06 AI next summer.  I want it for deer through elk.  It is VERY close to factory 338 Win Mag velocities, with much less powder and recoil.  Plus the benifit of '06 cases being way easier to find and cheaper than the win mag too.

The 30-30 AI makes a lot of sense to me especially when you consider the 30-30 factory stuff still easily fires from it, in a pinch.  30-30 ammo is a lot cheaper than 308 or higher and the total recoil would probably still be less.

Besides, wildcatting is what got us most of the rounds we take for granted anyway.
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Offline Buffalogun

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2004, 03:00:02 PM »
CullenH,

The brass case does need its strength because it serves as a seal between the burning powder and the breech end of the chamber. If the case ruptures, gases can escape to the rear or sides.

However, action strength more than anything is what holds things together. You only have to look at the lifespan of the .45-70 cartridge, to see this.

The .45-70 came to life as a low-pressure blackpowder cartridge chambered in the Trapdoor rifle. An action that today is considered a very weak action! Through the years as action strengths have increased, the pressures the .45-70 can be loaded to have been slowly edged upward.
The original load pushed a 405g cast bullet at 1,300 fps. Todays premium loads can push the 405g bullet past 2,000 fps. with complete safety.
However, todays premium loads should not be fired in the old weaker Trapdoor actions.

The original loads would take a Buffalo and have been given this credit. Recently, one of our current outdoor writers took his .45-70 and some premium loads to Africa. He fired these at Cape Buffalo. His loads took the bull he was aiming at, but went completely through the bull and also took a cow that neither he nor the quide saw.

Imagine taking two "capes" with a cartridge designed over 100 yrs. ago. I don't remember SAAMI specs for the .45-70 cartridge, but am sure that it doesn't call for a 405g bullet at 2,000+ fps.

The 30-30AI also takes advantage of stronger actions!

Buffalogun 8)
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Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2004, 12:28:21 PM »
Buffalogun.
Of the various wildcats and other improved cases I have fired and used I have never come accross a case rupture. In a properly fire formed Wild cat and well maintained cases with a minimum head space; case ruptures are practicly unknown.

While I have seen 303 cases come apart in three loads made by people with no knowledge of proper hand loading.
The cases are never at fault it is the configuration of the case that causes the  rupture and excessive head space, but even that can overcome by good hand loads.

All BRASS CASES ARE VERY WEAK because the yield strenght of brass is only 17kpsi so they will stretch at will and do come apart when stretched more then once or twice.

A brass case will stand up to 70kpsi at that point it will melt and flow. With high pressure loads the only reason the stand up so long is because the high pressure only lasts a fraction of a milisecond and the 30-30 AI is no exception.

Quote
Souping up a 30-30 case to get there is not an improvement on the concept
.
Improving the 30-30 case has nothing to do with souping up, but it is about improving powder burn, long case life, easy hand loading, limited case stretching and more velocity by the way of more powder. The 30-30Imp has astablished substantial records not by souping but by an almost perfect expansion ratio. How much more can you ask?

Cases with the long sloping shoulders allow for continious forward brass flow. Hence they will rupture when used to often, and that is the basic difference between the AI and the standard case. Fred M.
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Offline Buffalogun

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2004, 01:51:45 PM »
Fred M,

The only wildcat I have is the 30-30AI and I like it. When you can get velocities in the range of the .308 with only 38-39g powder while the .308 is using around 10g more, you know it's burning efficiently. It's also accurate out of my T/C Custom barrel. Is it a needed cartridge? No! We do have a myriad of cartridges that can replace and surpass it's performance. But, it sure is fun and educational to play around with wildcats. Mr. Ackley thought the 30-30AI was one of the best.

I have P. O. Ackleys books and enjoy reading them. One of the more interesting articles is about pressures. You may have read that he removed the locking lug from the bolt of a old beat-up M94 chambered to the 30-30AI. Only pressure from the finger lever was holding the bolt against the chambered case. Because of the minimum taper of the case, there was very little thrust against the bolt. The action stayed closed and this was done several times.

I don't think you can ask for much more!

I think Mr. Ackley knew what it was about!

Buffalogun 8)
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Offline J-Milner

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2004, 09:27:08 AM »
I'm new over here so I hope I'm not over stepping my bounds by posting....

I just recently had my sons as well as my own N.E.F. 30-30 rechambered to the 30-30 Ackley Improved, had the barrel recrowned and a muzzle brake added. We also had the triggers reworked to a very clean breaking 40 oz.. The purpose of the brake was to be able to watch the bullet impact through the scope plus, with less felt recoil, my son and I get to spend a lot more time shooting together. We got lucky that BOTH of our guns shoot the same exact load and are pushing SPEER's 150 grain Grand Slam bullet to 2,600 fps.. The average group size for 3-shots at 100 yards, measured center to center is exactly 3/4". Not too shabby in my book....

J-
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Offline handirifle

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2004, 11:56:57 AM »
J-Milner
Not too bad sounds like an understatement to me.  Did you do the AI yourself?

Do you mind sharing your load data?
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Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2004, 06:46:41 PM »
J-Milner.
Finally some one comes up with a 30-30AI. Thes rifles are good news. Your velocity is just what I thought it should be. If you tried the 150gr Barnes Triple shock you will have a real surprise. Barnes claims super accuracy, less fouling and more velocity, that is a mouth full. But I can vouch for this statement to be true.

I was told that by Barnes last spring at the Shot show in Vegas, and I told them that any Barnes bullet I ever tried copper fouled like crazy and with that accuracy goes out the window and never mind more velocity. They really made a believer out of me. Hope I don't sound like a sales man.

I used this type of bullet in a Ruger #1 25-06 with phenomenal results. I was going to try them in the H&R 25-06 but since I won't keep this rifle I did not want to waste these good bullets.

All I can say you have perhaps the best caliber suited for the Handi in the 30-30AI  par non. This is a super accurate and an extremely well balanced cartridge. Give N150, H414 or H380 a try. Lets hear more about it. Fred M.
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Offline handirifle

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2004, 06:56:26 PM »
Fred
I'm not attacking you but there seems to be a contradiction in your experience with Barnes bullets.  I'm very curious about them and was wondering if the did foul and if you were pleased.

Quote
Barnes claims super accuracy, less fouling and more velocity, that is a mouth full. But I can vouch for this statement to be true


Quote
I was told that by Barnes last spring at the Shot show in Vegas, and I told them that any Barnes bullet I ever tried copper fouled like crazy and with that accuracy goes out the window and never mind more velocity


Please clarify for me.

Thanks
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Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2004, 09:00:58 PM »
Handirifle.
The good looking  woman Coni a Barnes owner told me about the Triple Shock bullets after I gave her a hard time about the bad fouling Barnes Bullets. I did not believe her about what she said as above.

But it did irk me  so I bought a box of 100gr 25cal Triple shock the ones that have the three grooves. I did Moly plate them not the sprayed on stuff. I use the NECO system.

After some work on the Ruger#1 forearm I tuned the rifle for the 100 gr Hornady Interlocks my favorite 100gar 25 call which always performed in my 25 Hunter. With them I  got the Ruger shooting 5/8" at 100m using 56gr Of Reloader 22  loaded .015" into the lands.

With the Moly plated bullets I do not clean the bore too much this load was doing 3375 ft.

Then I loaded the same load with the 100grain Barnes Triple shock for a velocity of 3440 av. with a very low  variance in velocity not quite 10 ft.
and three groups of three shot each 1/4" and under the smallest .216".
That is one of the best hunting bullet groups I ever fired.

No copper fouling to speak off no more than any other Moly coated bullet.
There are a few streaks but this barrel is well used and has some heat checks visible only with a 20X bore scope.

Don't confuse the Triple Shock with any other Barnes bullets, these bullets cost 80 cents each in Canada but they are good. I will hunt with them this year. I have not tried them in my 25 Hunter yet but will do it soon.

Do I like them? The answer should be obvious, but I would like them more if I did not have to shoot a dollar bill down the bore each time I pull the trigger.  :lol:
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline J-Milner

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2004, 04:57:53 AM »
handirifle, Mac and Fred M,

my son and I took the rifles by David White's shop aka.  Precision Rifleworks in Mississippi, while on our way to visit family in Texas. Mr. White allowed us to watch the making of and machining of his brakes, barrel threading and recrowning and rechambering of the barrels. He let my son testfire both 30-30's after they were rechambered. We did a before test and after test with the muzzle brakes and I was really shocked at the amount of recoil those brakes took away. Even if I don't have any work to be done, I will definantly be stopping by Mr. White's shop again, just to visit. He is one of the most knowledgeable and friendliest gunsmiths I have ever met and I have met several throughout the years and it's amazing to watch him work at his lathe. I guess facsinating is more like it but I'm just a plumber so what do I know.

I have never like the "Barnes bullets" because of the BAD copper fouling and the deteriorating accuracy that follows, but this is just me and my findings.

Using the two powders that Mr. White recommended, W-748 and H-4895, our best load was as follows:

W-W 30-30 Win. cases with the flash hole deburred.

Federal 210 Match primers

H-4895 / 38.0 grains

150 grain SPEER Grand Slam bullet - seated to just barely touch the rifling

Velocity was a very uniform 2,618 fps. from my barrel and the same EXACT  load from my sons gun was a very uniform 2,662 fps.

Accuracy from both guns from from the bench averaged 3/4" for three shots measured center to center. My son shot his first "Mickey Mouse" group with his gun last week and had his mom buy a frame for it so he could hang it in his room to show all his school buddies. That group measured 5/16" center to center. Talk about a happy kid!
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Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2004, 07:46:24 AM »
J-Milner.
This is a pair of fine shooting rifles. The young fellow should be very happy with that kind of accuracy.

The Triple Shock Barnes is a new design with three grooves milled into the shank. It is not like any the other Barnes X bullets which do foul awful. I just bought another box of them to try in my 25 Hunter.

I am glad you came on line to proof a point just how good the 30-30AI really is. I have harped about that caliber for a long time. A few people say to use a bigger case if you want 308 velocities????? Not me!

I believe you did the right thing by using a gun smith to do the chamber, that is what I would do. On a lath you have control and further you can fit the proper pilot to the reamer for perfect concentricity of the chamber.

Like T/C, H&R should chamber for the 30-30AI. But that is not likely to happen.

Man you are right up there with an 06 with a 180 gr bullet. I thought you first said you were using 150gr bullets?

Here is a little jewel that I use, a 30BR using a 125gr bullet with 33.8gr of H4198 doing 2990ft/sec, now that case is only 1.500 long a short 308 win.
With a 155gr Palma Match bullet it beats the 30-30 hands down with ony 33.0 gr of powder. Little cases are so much more intresting and they don't blow you ears out.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline handirifle

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2004, 07:55:39 AM »
Fred
Did you try the triple shock bullets without the moly coating?  Having zero knowledge of moly, what is the NECO method?  I've only read of spray on DIY stuff.  Woud the spray on work as well, why not if so?
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Offline J-Milner

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2004, 08:12:41 AM »
Fred M,

my mistake Sir and I do apologize for it. I went back and corrected my mistake in the above post. The bullet I am using is SPEER's 150 grain Grand Slam and NOT the 180 grainer.

What barrel length is your 30 B-R? I bet that is a super accurate round, especially with that particular Sierra bullet.

I did not think about it until handirifle mentioned it but, I also coat all of my bullets. I use a product called Danzac and use the "impact plating method" to coat my bullets.

J-
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Offline J-Milner

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2004, 08:24:08 AM »
Mac,

I did correct my mistake as I was shooting 150 grain bullets and NOT 180 grain bullets. I apologize for the confusion.

J-
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Offline handirifle

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2004, 09:22:38 AM »
Can someone enlighten me on the various methods pf coating bullets?  Does it affect accuracy?

If you have a particular load that is accurate and only change the coating on the next batch, what does it do to them?  Would it move the impact point?
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Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2004, 09:56:42 AM »
J-Milner.
Danzac coating is really slick, I use Moly plating on all my bullets for all calibers the 30BR has a 24" Shilen match barrel 1-15" twist. The bullets I am using at present are 125 gr TNT. But waiting to get some BIB bullets for competition.

Posted and calculated velocities don't really mean much, specially when fired in other rifles and with different powders, barrels and a whole lot of other things which influence the performance of a bullet/load.

Besides, what about case volume nobody ever posts any of these in some cases the velocity can vary quite substantial, I have a lot more faith in a chrono reading. I don't think you are out very far.


Fred M.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Buffalogun

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2004, 11:44:21 AM »
Mac,

You do the numbers. My rifle is a T/C Custom 30-30AI!
My rifle flings the Sierra 150g SPT over 38g IMR 3031 out of it's 24" barrel at my chrono'd 2,804 fps. The 125g Nosler Ballistic Tip fly's out at over 2,900 fps.

Typical rifles chambered to the 30-30 Win. shoot 150g bullets around 2,300-2,400 fps. over 30-33g powder.

And, it is very accurate!

Buffalogun 8)
Don't worry about the mule..........just load the wagon!

Offline Fred M

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2004, 02:11:53 PM »
handirifle.
I have never used Danzac but have used Moly since it came on the market by NECO in the mid 90 tees. You have to make up your mind whether you want to use it or not. You can't change from day to day and get any kind of performance.

Layers of Moly and copper fouling sandwiched in a bore is asking for trouble. I clean my guns after every use most of the time. During hunting season I do not clean unless it is raining or snowing. Never over clean a Moly bore. But hear I am talking about match barrels.

Moly plating is done in a tumbler with steel shot, and bullet tumbled again in a different drum with a small amout of carnauba wax.

 Moly does not nessarily improve accuracy. but will improve long range performance, because a Moly bore will produce a much smoother engraving on the bullet. In this way the bullets will fly with less wind resistance and tubulance created by otherwise rough ingraving.

It prevents a lot of copper fouling, in a very smooth bore hardly any.
It makes barrels very easy to clean, and you need only to remove the carbon deposits. You can shoot a whole lot of ammo without cleaning if you feel like it. It has been noticed that barrels using Moly bullets last longer because of less friction between bullets and bore.

You will get higher velocities but will have to use some more powder because of the enhanced lubricity of the barrel and bullet. It is debatable whether there is much advantage in using Moly bullets in a limited used hunting rifle. Moly is non toxic.

Spray on is not what I would use, it makes a build up on the bullet and in the barrel, while impact plating (NECO System) is not on the surface but harbours in the microscopic pores of the bullet skin.

I have a web page on Moly and how to build your own tumbler for very little cost. I shoot a lot of BR targets and plate several hundred bullets at a time so the hunting bullets are easy to pick out.

Buffalogun is right about the 30-30 AI but since I don't have one I can only look at some data for the famous 30 Aardvark which is a 30-30 Imp with a 46gr water volume and the 219 Zipper Imp another 30-30 Imp wich is in the same league as the 22-250. So if anybody has any doubts
about the 30-30 AI he should try one.

How to get a 30-30 Handi with a good barrel that is the big question?

And don't come up with anymore of those long winded questions, I am going goose hunting in the morning for about five days. Fred M.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline handirifle

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30-30 semi-wildcat?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2004, 06:30:23 AM »
Mac
I have no experience with any AI but I am confused with this issue and the worry about pressures in the Handi.  I fully understand the limits on the Handi as far as pressure goes ,but, if the Handi can take the 52K of the 308 with no issues, then why not the 30-30 case to the same levels?  

That is assuming the case does not start to show signs of overpressure in the process.

Granted, in its original design, for lever guns, the 30-30 was a low pressure round.  But shouldn't one, when making a new cartridge (ie. 30-30 AI) load and look for signs of overpressure for the NEW design instead of limiting oneself to the old?

With its straighter case wall and less (or reduced) bolt thrust due to this, would the AI not be able to handle, in theory, as much pressure as the receiver it's in?

Again, the emphasis being on "working up the load and watching for pressure signs along the way"?  This seems to me the same as working up reloads for any cartridge.  I'm not defending anyones numbers here but it seems wrong to me to keep quoting SAAMI pressure limits for a case that this is no longer, and for a different style gun.  The 30-30 was developed for the low pressure guns, but I cannot see the application of 30-30 SAAMI numbers being applied.
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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2004, 10:55:20 AM »
Mac
All good points, thanks.  Like I had sad, it's about working up the loads.  I have no idea what the numbers would come out like but it is an interesting conversion to me mostly cause, it is rimmed, it will make the 30-30 an HONEST 200yd cartridge, (not 300 or 400) and the extended case life.

In my mind it's a worthwile move but as I said you have the experience and good points to keep in mind.  I really do not personally see how one could get 400-500fps gain in that small case improvement but I am not that knowledgable about burn rates etc.  But some do have that knowledge and I cannot dispute them.

I'm also NOT one to push the limits of an action with reloads.  Heck, when my 223 UV starts getting hard to open, I back off the loads.  I cannot push my 223 loads at any of the published max loads before that happen, but all of my most accurate loads have come from loading them just 1/10thgr less than the load that makes it hard to open.

Now my Savage '06 LOVES the hot loads and max loadings give zero pressure signs in it, at least in the loads I have shot so far.  Again, these were loads I worked up to, and felt recoil is no different to me.

Thanks for the feedback.
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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2004, 10:57:47 AM »
Mac,

I too, have seen the numbers from the "Reloading Bench". And, I have wondered why there is such a difference between this data and the data from Mr. Ackley's book.

The data from the "Reloading Bench" is quite conservative and doesn't truly reflect the capabilities of this cartridge.

You seem to be stuck on SAAMI specs. But, you have to remember the 30-30 Win. and 30-30AI are completely different cartridges.

Here is the data regarding 125g and 150g bullets, from Mr. Ackleys book "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders":

125g
  39g--3031---2,940 fps.
  35g--4198---2,940 fps.

150g
   34g--4198---2,700 fps.
   36g--3031---2,535 fps.
   37g--HiVel#2--2,700 fps.
   38g--3031---2,700 fps.
   40g--4320---2,500 fps.
   43g--H375---2,535 fps.

You will notice that some of the listed powders are no longer available.

You should notice the rather large increase in case capacity, over the std. 30-30 Win.

You should also notice that my velocities with 150g bullets are a little faster than Mr. Ackley's. But, they are well within reason and create no situation of excessive pressures in my rifle. Mr. Ackley used a M94 carbine w/20" barrel, while my rifle wears a 24" tube.

However, my velocities with 125g bullets are right on the money.

You are free to believe any data that you read, but I find Mr. Ackley's to be just right!


Buffalogun 8)
Don't worry about the mule..........just load the wagon!