Author Topic: 30-30 semi-wildcat? (Read 2754 times)

handirifle · « **Reply #30 on:** October 07, 2004, 06:45:16 PM »

Buffalo
Let me ask you this, at the velocities you quote, does the recoil rise as much as velocity?

I assume this was an NEF rifle, and do you have any extraction or hard opening problems?

Buffalogun · « **Reply #31 on:** October 08, 2004, 07:19:22 AM »

Handi,

My rifle is a T/C Contender w/24" barrel.

After reading your post, I went to Point Blank and figgered the recoil as close as possible. My rifle with std. 30-30 velocity and powder charge generated just over 10 ft/lbs recoil. However, my rifle with the 30-30AI load generated just over 14 ft/lbs.recoil.

So, there is an increase in recoil, although it is still below that of a .270 Win.

It is interesting that the T/C Custom shop is chambering Contender barrels for the 30-30AI, yet the Contender frame is not rated for high-pressure cartridges!!!

Buffalogun

handirifle · « **Reply #32 on:** October 08, 2004, 09:38:28 AM »

Mac
About the 200yd thing, I knew you'd say that and in many rights you're correct. It's just a that a little higher velocity will flatten the trajectory enough to allow for any slight error in range estimation. Like "it was really 250".

My main idea was more along the lines of the other improvements I emntioned above. I'll let you and Buffalo argue the pressure/velocity maximums.

This guy has some interesting info on this round. http://eabco.com/Reports/report03.html He does not call it the AI but as well as I can determine it is the same. He has almost stated as much to me in emails. He uses slightly LESS shoulder angle than Ackley. Note that he is referring to 180gr bullets in all his charts as well. This is because of the higher SD and BC of the longer bullets.

J-Milner · « **Reply #33 on:** October 11, 2004, 11:36:42 AM »

Mac,

after reading all these posts concerning "pressure" in the N.E.F., I had one of my shooting buddies pressure test my N.E.F. that I had rechambered to the 30-30 Ackley Improved. Bill set up his Oehler 43 PBL and silver soldered the wires of the strain gauge to my barrel. With everything set up and running, the five shots through the barrel measured an average pressure of 40,000 psi., which is an acceptable and safe working limit of the N.E.F. single shot and cartridge...

After the 30-30 Ackley Improved testing, we then hooked the strain gauge up to an H&R 280 Remington that has the 26" barrel and black plastic stock. The pressures of this barrel averaged 52,000 psi. and the SPEER #13 manual shows a maximum working pressure of 60,000 psi. for the 280 Remington...

Our next test was on a heavy barreled 223 that has been rechambered to the 222 Remington Magnum Ackley Improved. The pressures for it averaged 50,100 psi. with the load that was worked up for it...

A regular N.E.F. 30-30 Win. shooting Hornady's 170 grain factory ammo registered 36,000 psi....

The last gun to be tested was a Weatherby in 257 Weatherby. The pressure reading on it was 52,000 psi. and was with factory ammo....

I don't guess any of this really proves anything but with all the talk about "pressures", I just had to see if I might be going overboard on my loads for my 30-30 Ackley Improved...

J-

J-Milner · « **Reply #34 on:** October 11, 2004, 11:57:39 AM »

Something else I thought about doing and did, was to take just one case and load it over and over with the same load that I am hunting with. I loaded this one particular case 16 times and it is still loadable. The primer pocket is still fairly tight, no cracks or signs of case fatigue. I tried this with a regular 30-30 case and I got 9 firings out of it before the case had to be trashed because of it cracking at the web area. I tried again with another case and on the 8th. firing, the shoulder split. Looks like the 30-30 Ackley Improved is one of the best choices I made in a long time....

J-

J-Milner · « **Reply #35 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:03:19 PM »

And you guys talk about the 30-30 being a 200 yard gun! My son and myself can consistantly hit and explode gallon milk jugs full of water at 300 and 400 yards. Of course we have to dial our scopes in to be able to hit at those distances but we find this to be easier than falling off a log. Please understand that I'm not bragging, I'm just letting you know how accurate these little guns are.

J-

Buffalogun · « **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:45:45 PM »

J,

Thanks for all your testing on your rifle and I hope the strain gauge didn't mess up the finish. If you don't mind, could you measure the bore diameter of your bore. I just bought a Handi 308 HB and the slugged bore measures almost exactly .308".

Thanks,
Buffalogun

Fred M · « **Reply #37 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:18:01 PM »

J-Milner.
Now we have some proof of the performance. My estimate of 50kpsi is right on the money. A 5% variation in pressure is a normal ocurance. So we are looking at 52.5Kpsi. I know this case can do better than that but 52.5ksi is perfect for the Handi.

The loads mentioned by Mac are for the anteques and leavers. The powders bear this out. In a modern 30-30 all of them are too fast for a good performance even your H4895 is too fast.

The fastest powder you should be using is Varget up to H4350 and H414 in beween for lower pressures with higher velocities.With these powders you should get the powder to the underside of the bullet with a slight compression. I say about 43.0 gr.

In my 25Hunter I use H414 with a 100 gr bullet and H380 with the 85gr match bullets. The case volume for the 25 Hunter is 46.5 gr of water the 30-30AI is perhaps around 48gr Or much in the same class.

On a scale of burning speed from 1-89, IMR3031 is #47, W748 is 52. RL 7 is 46. H4895 is 55, Varget is #61 H414 is#71 and H4350 is #74.

You are right all calibers based on the 30-06 308 types will easy handle 60kpsi. Factory loads are usually 55kpsi with the + 5% variation margin.
Use the above powders with the 150gr Triple shock and the Danzec coating and you be getting the best out of your 30-30AI. Fred M.

handirifle · « **Reply #38 on:** October 11, 2004, 08:11:00 PM »

Mac
Out of curiosity, how many actions does a factory test for each caliber before it is considered proof tested?

lik2hunt · « **Reply #39 on:** October 12, 2004, 02:38:16 AM »

Quote

and for those of you who actually believe you can...remember this...I'm from Missouri...and we have a saying here...." Show Me "

Mac

:-D

J-Milner · « **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2004, 04:08:29 AM »

Mac,

why does all this junk about the 308 keep coming up? Me personally, I don't like the 308 and have no use for one! I did not say that it was not a good cartridge, because it is. I just don't like that particular round. I am also NOT trying to get 308 performance from my 30-30 Ackley Improved. I for one cannot see a 30-30 Ackley Improved round pushing any bullet faster than a 308. It has a larger case capacity and higher working pressures, so theoretically, it cannot be done. If I wanted 308 Velocities then I would have bought a 308! I went with the 30-30 Ackley Improved because of the accuracy that is achieveable from the round and it has more than enough velocity to anchor anchor a deer with my chosen bullet at the furthest range I will be shooting, which will be between 150 - 175 yards. You are right! A 308 it is not but for what it is and it's intended purpose, I find it to be the best cartridge going for the job at hand....

J-

handirifle · « **Reply #41 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:24:08 AM »

Thanks Mac I really had no idea how much they did test their guns. I suspected they tested till failure, otherwise how do they know how high to tell us (consumer) what safe levels are.

I strongly suspect they figure the maximum and give us a figure far below that, to account for differences in steel quality in maunfacturing.

J.
I see where Mac is coming from on both counts and as far as what you say you get or what the 308 can do is neighter here nor there, but the points he are making are valid.

On the other hand it's a matter of personal choice when one goes into customizing their rifles. Some see no sense in it, and others find that is the thrill of it all.

Enjoy and be safe.

Fred M · « **Reply #42 on:** October 12, 2004, 12:49:41 PM »

Mac .
I thought we were talking 50k, sometime I don't see so good. At 40k there is not much advantage when you have a rifle that will nicly operate at 50K.

I never found that seating to or into the lands increases pressure much.
Loading 10-15 thou into the lands is quite common. I do it all the time.
With different OAL I have never seen much increase in chrono readings either. If anything seating long reduces pressure by increasing case volume.

A 308 or any other cartrige designed with a machine gun shoulder is a dog for hand loading. You are lucky to get 7-8 uses out of these cases.
with no end of trimming reaming measuring checking for case seperations etc. While a AI or an Imp shoulder will give you 25-30 uses or more.

Used to go out PD shooting with a 243AI with a tight neck and take 5 cases and shoot all afternoon. Seating bullets with your fingers and finish seating with the bolt into the lands. 5 cases were build with the most simple tools in the time the rifle cooled down. Loading them 10-15 times or more depending on available targets. That is why I like AI cases. Fred M.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #43 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:51:33 PM »

Fred:

I've been around way to many benchrest shooters...these past few years...and most of them load and shoot...load and shoot...all done with extremely nice arbor presses...and barrel powder hoppers...right at the bench...these guys shoot the full range of cartridges...22's...6mm...6.5mm...7mm.....and 30 cal...all in just about every conceivable type case and from everytype of action...from true behemoth rail guns...done to light weight hunter class...some do it for fun...others are truly serious and quite talented,and compete and often win their respected class......but all of them will tell you...if the bullet is into the lands...any amount...the pressure will go up...and these fellows...know...they all have had their pet loads...tested...and most of them have had dedicated barrels cut to do this,there are places you can have this done for the price of the barrel......and if you want to know how much that cost...pick a powder company...and ask them...I've been told $10,000 will get you started...and you know...I really didn't need them tell me this...but it is nice to have friends who have went to the trouble to do so......I'm rather lucky to know some of these very talented and dedicated shooters...and over the years have gleaned quite a-bit of information from them to aid me in my shooting and reloading passion...

A few rules of thumb.... so to speak...gathered over the years...

Bullet makes contact with lands...pressure will increase...period... and this really isn't even arguable...call any bullet manufacture...or powder company...or ammo manufacture...this is one fact that is indisputable....

Use a bullet with a longer bearing surface and everything else the same....pressure will increase.....

Use a magnum primer...or a primer that is hotter...with everything else the same...pressure will increase......

Velocity gains are not free...there is a price to pay...and usually on standard bullets... that is a pressure increase........

All things being equal...these rules of thumb apply to any rifle or pistol...there is no formula for calculating exactly how much increase you'll get...at best it is a guess...because of all the variables involved...nor is this quatum physics...this is just plain old common sense in Handloading.... learned buy folks over the years.... and past down from when they first started stuffing powder in a pipe...ramming a ball down it... and touching a flame to the end of it......and it really isn't that difficult to understand...provided you have common sense to begin with....

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #44 on:** October 13, 2004, 05:52:37 AM »

Mac.
Thanks for the lecture.
I don't just hang around with BR shooters, I shoot BR hunter class with a 25Hunter, Varmint for score with a 30BR and Light varmint for group with a 6ppc.

I don't know if I have any common sence but I have lots of experience.
Whether one makes up for the other, I don't know that either.

You read too much into of what I said. The guy's 25-06 opens the latch with certain loads and talks about accuray, I found out different. Iam not as protective as you are of the NEF Wunderkind. :lol:

But I love the 30-30AI Handi. Notwithstanding that it is not as good as a 308. Some day I find one and turn it into a real shooter. My smith has a reamer and can do it in a jiffy. I really do need that one. for sure no other will do. Fred M.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #45 on:** October 13, 2004, 06:21:51 AM »

Fed:

Quote

Thanks for the lecture.

It wasn't written to mean it that way...if you took as such...sorry...but since others here also have the opourtunity to read things...it was passed on...as I recieved it...

Protective...

...nawwwww not really...I've done my fair share of souping up cartridges...but...long before I started reloading I had developed a good common sense approach...which...for me... is nothing more than comming to terms with a given problem and having the reasoning power to develope a solution...and the ability to let things go..when I can't...by not allowing my pride or stubborness to get in the way...and I have to apply a great deal of logic to the problems as well...so that I can figure out if it's me...or something else that's really causing the problem in the first place...

I too love the 30-30 AI...in a cousins short barreled Whinchester carbine...I can actually get the advertised velocities of the parent cartridge...and this makes it just right for his hunting areas and his use of the gun...something few standard 30-30 do anyway with regular factory fodder......and after all...wasn't that precisely want Parker was trying to achieve :wink:

Mac