Author Topic: What are they teaching our kids !!!!!  (Read 3510 times)

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Offline S.S.

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What are they teaching our kids !!!!!
« on: October 01, 2004, 10:14:25 AM »
I have been reading these post for a while but Normally have chosen to keep
my mouth shut  and not Voice an opinion!!!
Tongue is sore enough from biting it now so I gotta speak!!!
Have any of you actually read any of the history books your kids
are getting in school these days !!!  There is so much politically
correct garbage in them that it is no wonder people actually believe
that the war was fought over Slavery!!!  Do an experiment and
ask your childs history teacher what the Civil War was Fought over!!!
If it was fought over slaves Why did the northerners not simply
turn and shoot their next door neighbors!!!  They had slaves TOO!!!
Ask them what the Emancipation (sp) Proclamation did!!!
It freed the slaves in the states that left the UNION, Not the
ones in the states who stayed in the Union!  And Lincon only wrote it because he was afraid the South would free their slaves first. Then they might have fought the North!!!  The Northerners who came
South to 'GRAB' up land that the Southern owners could no longer
pay the TREMENDOUS Taxes on Put the slaves right back to work
for pitiful wages and in many cases treated them worse than the slave
owners did!!!  There were actually a very small number of actual slave
owners in the South in the over all picture.  Slaves did not come cheap!
and most southerners were so poor that they could barely keep a roof over their own heads, much less buy slaves!!!  Don't get me wrong
in this post, Slavery was a terrible thing and I personally wish that
it was not a part of our history. I also wish that Political Correctness
would have never reared it's ugly head!!!  
Northern people sometimes have really no Idea How much animosity
there still is in the South over the Civil War.  When I can look back
and know that My family once owned a large portion of what is now
South Atlanta and basically had it stolen from them by a Northern
Puppet Government set up here after the war, Yes, I get a little irritated
about it. The north sent Animals like Sherman to come through and attempt to wipe out anything he can to further his career. And bring with him Union troops that STEAL everything they can get their hands on and burn the rest ! Sherman and all who came with him should have been
tried for war crimes! But instead they are made out as heros in politically
correct History books! It is a real shame that people are being lead to believe this crap.   One of the most terrible Humans ever to breath Gods air once said " Those who do not remember history, Will be forced to repeat it".  That was a true statement from an evil man, it was
Adolph Hitler.    We need to remember our mistakes and our great deeds
accurately so we won't repeat the mistakes!!
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2004, 11:48:28 AM »
Yes, the revisionist history writers have done a good job at twisting the truth and altering perspectives.  

It is fact that war was waged against the civilian populace as well as the troops. In the minds of many northerners the general populace of the south was traitors who brought this upon themselves and therefore should be shown no mercy.  I agree there were some instances of coincidence and perhaps more instances of collateral damage but the southern public felt the brunt of northern revenge and their direct retribution in no uncertain terms; as well as being subjected to the north’s efforts to destroy food supplies and the Southern war machine.  

There are numerous examples of these occurrences even during the occupation of southern cities which no longer posed a direct threat to either the federal government or the occupying provost and troops.  In addition the imposed reconstruction governments put uneducated blacks, many of whom could not read or write, carpet baggers and dishonest northern appointees in state legislatures who in turn imposed taxes and debt, literally stole directly from the state treasuries and bankrupted many of the States.  Many states incurred debt that was so profound it was not fully relinquished until the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. And keep in mind, very little, if any of these debts were written off by northern banks. Thus it is not hard to understand why the south is often stereotyped as poor, uneducated and backward.  Quite a change from the prosperity the south enjoyed before the war.  And as you mentioned we haven’t even discussed the real property that was destroyed, confiscated and stolen never to be returned to their legal owners.

The South may have been gradually phased back into the union but it was never totally forgiven for their transgressions against the union - while the South justifiably believed they had simply exercised their rights as sovereign states.

Consider that the South was not simply defeated in battle; the entire region, military as well as civilian, was pretty much destroyed in an attempt to bring the south to its knees and make every individual pay restitution whether it be physical, moral or spiritual. Cities were burned, crops were burned, belongings were stolen, land was confiscated, the state and municipal governments were thrown out and a new government was imposed that literally caused more suffering and abuse; civilians were wrongfully imprisoned, our women were beaten and raped and many areas never recovered and were forever changed by these actions.  And yet I suppose it really pisses some people off that although we may have been beaten down and collapsed onto one knee - we defiantly never hit the ground with both and was never completely subjugated.  And people wonder why we have trouble forgetting; even so many years later.

Finally, if it is just that reparations should be made to ethnic groups that suffered against their will, is it not unjust that the decedents of those also victimized by their oppressors should also have a basis for these claims?
GG-father: 6th Ala Inf
GG-uncles: 6th Ala Inf; 19th Tn; Wirt Adam's Cav.

Offline Shorty

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What are they teaching our kids !!!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2004, 11:57:59 AM »
Sumner, nohorse,

Africans (colonialism), Armenians (genocide), Jews (the holocaust), African-Americans (slavery), Native Americans (genocide), Palestinians (displacement).
The list is longer.  Do ya'll identify with all of those "victim" groups who keep up the "cause" for generation after generation?
I bet that you'd say to them, "That's history, get over it!".

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2004, 05:03:44 AM »
Shorty, in some instances there are similarities. In many others there are not.  Although I personally do not identify with any of those “victim” groups, make no mistake about it; I would never tell the holocaust Jews or any other group that suffered so "That's history, get over it!".  And regrettably as you point out – the list is indeed way too long.
GG-father: 6th Ala Inf
GG-uncles: 6th Ala Inf; 19th Tn; Wirt Adam's Cav.

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2004, 07:56:50 PM »
Shorty,
What is it your asking, I dont see your end, can you please explain ?
Thanks
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
WoNA historian
Un-Reconstructed Confederate

Offline l.cutler

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2004, 12:04:10 AM »
Yes this PC stuff can get to you.  However misinformation can go both ways.  Lincoln turned the war into a" war against slavery" with the emancipation proclamation.  The reason was to give the war a higher moral meaning to keep France and England from joining the Confederacy. Lincoln would like to have included the slaves in the border states but could not afford to drive them out of the union.  As for Sherman and his bummers, yes they did some terrible things.  Officially civilians were supposed to be removed from harms way and personal property not essential to the Confederate war effort left alone.   We know however this was not enforced as it should have been.  Whether the condition of the prisoners liberated from Andersonville had any effect on the troops behavior, who knows.  Oh, it was George Santayana who made that quote about history.

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2004, 06:05:18 AM »
AS FOR SHERMAN AND HIS BUMMERS, YES THEY DID SOME TERRIBLE THINGS [That’s an understatement; Keep in mind that although Sherman may have been the “poster child” the abuses on the civilian populace were not limited to him and were widespread. Note that Sherman learned a lot from Grant in these regards during the Vicksburg campaign of 1863.]


OFFICIALLY CIVILIANS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE REMOVED FROM HARMS WAY AND PERSONAL PROPERTY NOT ESSENTIAL TO THE CONFEDERATE WAR EFFORT LEFT ALONE.

Here is “official” policy [Major General Henry Wager Halleck to Major General William T. Sherman, Washington, September 28, 1864, in Official Record, series 1, v. 39, pt. 2, p. 503.]

“The course which you have pursued in removing rebel families from Atlanta and in the exchange of prisoners is fully approved by the War Department.  Not only are you justified by the laws and usages of war in removing these people, but I think it was your duty to your own army to do so.  Moreover, I am fully of opinion that the nature of your position, the character of the war, the conduct of the enemy, and especially of non-combatants and women of the territory which we have heretofore conquered and occupied, will justify you in gathering up all the forage and provisions which your army may require both for a siege of Atlanta and for your supply in your march farther into the enemy's country.  Let the disloyal families of the country thus stripped go to their husbands, fathers, and natural protectors in the rebel ranks.”
GG-father: 6th Ala Inf
GG-uncles: 6th Ala Inf; 19th Tn; Wirt Adam's Cav.

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2004, 07:44:10 PM »
Sherman and Grant  should have been tried for war crimes.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
WoNA historian
Un-Reconstructed Confederate

Offline Shorty

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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2004, 03:43:20 PM »
El Confederado,
It's all very interesting, this give-and-take on historical perspectives, but I guess my real question is, why is it still so personal for some of us?   :?

No Black person today has suffered from slavery (Jim Crow and segregation,certainly, but not slavery).  
No Southern white today has suffered from the War or reconstruction (except for the backward redneck label).   Is that what you rail against, the arrogant superiority complex of the Nawth?
Why are Southerners, the most patriotic populace, who fill the ranks of our military, and provide its greatest leaders also still fighting that old war?

Offline MOGorilla

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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2004, 07:10:06 AM »
Why is it still a sore subject?  I would say 100% relates to the Reconstruction.   After almost every war in our past, we treated the conquered with respect and dignity, helping them rebuild country and economy.  After the Civil war, the south was ravaged by greedy Northerners.   It left a taste in the mouth of Southerners that will long be remembered.   Many a theorist have claimed this was the reason Lincoln was killed, he had plans for an amicable reconciliation, that didn't flow with others.    As to the causes, I find it funny everyone who hopes on the band wagon about slavery.  That war did not abolish slavery in this or any other country.  It exists today all over the United States.  It makes our clothes, cleans the houses of the wealthy and serves far darker purposes in the peddling of Flesh.  Where are the John Brown's today?

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2004, 07:51:12 AM »
Shorty:

“It's all very interesting, this give-and-take on historical perspectives, but I guess my real question is, why is it still so personal for some of us?”:

Let’s consider another perspective:  Imagine that your ancestor and mine faced each other on the field of battle. Yours was from the north [no offense intended] and mine from the South. Yours left a home, a family, a secure job at a factory. Mine left a home, a family and a considerable acreage considering that the South was predominantly agricultural [and this was also true for my actual grandfather].  

Now after years of war and struggle both miraculously survived however each was severely wounded suffering a life long physical handicap that would prevent them from returning to their former occupations.  

The northern ancestor returned to the comforts of his home, friends and family but regretfully had to learn a new occupation.      

The Southern ancestor returned to find his home occupied and his acreage stolen. His family was scattered and although a few friends remained they suffered a similar circumstance and could offer little substantial assistance. There was no government or court that would provide either physical or financial restitution. As many others he was forced to leave his home and his state and traveled to Texas where at least there remained a more amicable view of the Southern veterans, and like his counterpart he too had to learn a new occupation.

What impact did this and similar circumstances have on future generations?  Many of the returning Southern veterans lost everything. There was no property or personal wealth except for a few unique circumstances.  They did not have the option of selling their personal property for their own gain let alone provide an inheritance for their offspring.

And when they passed they did not even have the privilege and honor of being interred in a national cemetery so many of their graves went unmarked and were eventually lost. Many of their service records were also destroyed or uncared for causing much difficulty for future generations attempting to research or preserve their lineage.

Now, years later, many states will no longer fly a flag that carries a reminder of their sacrifice. Misrepresentation in the liberal press has branded them and their cause as hateful and racist. They have been shunned and their pictures no longer adorn public buildings or hang on the walls of our schools. Monuments to their past service have been removed from town squares and their battle fields have become the victims of urban sprawl. Many prefer to re-write the history books and eliminate their valor or diminish their impact upon today’s social climate. Their ancestors have become a minority but are not granted legal minority status – because of their gender and the color of their skin [amazing isn’t it]. Few will stand up and publicly say these men fought for something, and sacrificed for something, and that their role in history is worthy of an accurate accounting and preservation. So in this context reconstruction still exists and indeed sir, every Southron still suffers and no sir, we do not “rail” against the arrogant superiority complex of the “nawth” although I am glad to hear you admit that it exists.
GG-father: 6th Ala Inf
GG-uncles: 6th Ala Inf; 19th Tn; Wirt Adam's Cav.

Offline dlemaster

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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2004, 02:44:03 AM »
nohorse
Nicely said.
I wish that all the revisionest history writers could see that point of view.
If we could convince these writers to write about the real causes of the war, and the fact that slavery was only a small part of that cause, it would go a long way in healing the wounds between both the North and South as well as between blacks and whites.
Much of the anger of blacks toward the symbols on the Confederacy is caused, they believe, by the fact that their ancestors were ripped from their homes, and lost all that they possessed and they have lost their heritage. I fail to see any difference in the way the South was treated after the war, and now they want to remove the symbols of the heritage of the South. The only thing many Southerners had left after the war. This can only foster more hatred between the races. I can't see where two wrongs make a right.
We need to get writers to write about the true causes of the war then get teachers to teach it. We all then need to admit to the true causes. Blacks could then put back together their lost heritage and let those in the South keep theirs. We would all get along much better, it wouldn't cure all the ills but it certainly would help.
What do you think?
Regards, Dave
"I love a good gun for it makes a man feel independent, and prepared for either war or peace".
David Crockett  1834

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2004, 06:41:27 AM »
Dave:

Quality education and knowledge allows us all to understand, adapt and change. Regretfully much of the information that is being relayed is biased. That is what prompted this particular discussion to start with. One thing is certain, change is going to occur and this change will impact people’s perception of their history and current social environment. Regretfully when changes are based upon biased information the foundation of our beliefs is eroded and these and similar actions and decisions become more acceptable.  As discussed in other topics on this board honesty, integrity and duty play a major role in our ability to accurately record and present the historical facts. Sadly in many instances these virtues have not been exercised and the result is historical narrative that supports a particular agenda or belief.

This is especially true regarding the symbols of the Confederacy and accurately relating our Southern heritage. Regretfully many of these symbols, particularly the battle flag, started getting a bum wrap shortly after the war and during reconstruction. It was branded as traitorous and because of its adoption by racially motivated hate groups over the years it has become an icon that represents those things that are wrong in our society to many special interest groups.  Now this has evolved to include any symbol of the Confederacy. Even Jefferson Davis’ home in Biloxi was recently fire bombed which prompts me to ask: “what did his retirement home symbolize?” It was not even his residence until after the Confederacy collapsed and he was never a member of any racially motivated hate group. In fact before the great insurrection he was a highly respected member of congress and at one time even the United States Secretary of War.  Does Mississippi and Alabama symbolize those same things? I suppose to some their very existence may.

Along with all of these questions you may realize, at least from my perspective [that you may or may not agree with] that many of these perceptions are misguided.  Consider the Confederate flag again. Many conceive that it is a symbol of slavery, inequality and racial hatred. It is not even flown at an Ole Miss football game anymore and to unfurl it in public brings an immediate response.  Yet consider what flag actually flew over this country during the slave trade, even before many of what later became the Confederate states were ratified?  In fact the Confederate Congress did not enact a “flag law” until 1863 that established the ‘Stainless Banner’ as the official flag of the Confederate States of America. So, as I said, what flag and what symbols actually reigned during America’s years of slavery and afterwards and why is this not being emphasized by the special interest groups?

Concerning the black struggle and slavery there is much to be learned and reconciled and there is also a lot of misinformation regarding this.  I agree that presenting the true and unbiased actual facts properly and respectfully to the masses would certainly change perspectives and improve relationships.
GG-father: 6th Ala Inf
GG-uncles: 6th Ala Inf; 19th Tn; Wirt Adam's Cav.

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2004, 08:37:10 PM »
Shorty,
1st sorry it has taken soo long to get to y'all, but I have been busy with Uncle Sam.
In part your correct about my feelings toward the North, after all this time them and their liberial lap dogs in Dixie still dont get it and by it  I mean the why we did as a people what we did, so yes I rail against their lookin down their nose at us, however and maybe even more important is the fact that I feel that their war was illegal, unjust and just plain wrong and for the most part very unconstitutional.As for the last part of the question, because some of us are just takin a rest and are waiting fer round two,hehehehe
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
WoNA historian
Un-Reconstructed Confederate

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2004, 01:25:50 AM »
Would you folks give the same recognition to the African-American community who suffered longer and more harshly under segregation than any Anglo suffered under reconstruction?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline El Confederado

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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2004, 07:21:44 AM »
williamlayton,
I can answer that fer ya, the answer is yes, but, alway remember this," Equal rights for all, special rights for none" that being said here I go.

First, we have to give recognition to Spain, France and Holland, because the English( which the US was part of) forced and cheated them out of their holdings in the Americas.

Second,We would own something to the Indians, what I am not sure, because lets face it  they didnt beleive in land ownership, so their claim is a bit suspect.

Third, The Mexicans, because they were given the American southwest to hold in trust until Spain could return, oh and that includes Tejas.

Hell since we are on the wagon, what about the Irish, Italians, Poles, Russians on the many european that the Anglo/English looked down their nose at, I mean lets be honest the list goes on.

But lets be honest here , Southerners are Americans and had been since the dawn of our nation, slaves were just that slaves so to compare the two is odd at the least. But I will say this, if we give to bunch, we must redress all the others also, otherwise, nbody should get anything, that simple.
Lt. J.M. Rodriguez II
Captain- K Company-- 37th Texas Cavalry C.S.A.
 Lt---2nd  Louisiana  Zouave Cavalry
( Coppens Zouaves Trans-Mississippi)
Lt.---1st Battalion of Louisiana Zouaves
WoNA historian
Un-Reconstructed Confederate

Offline nohorse

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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2004, 10:05:04 AM »
Williamlayton OK, here's some black history related to the struggle:

National Park Service historian, Ed Bearrs, stated, “I don’t want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910”.

Historian, Erwin L. Jordan, Jr., calls it a “cover-up” which started back in 1865. He writes, “During my research, I came across instances where Black men stated they were soldiers, but you can plainly see where ‘soldier’ is crossed out and ‘body servant’ inserted, or ‘teamster’ on pension applications.”

Another black historian, Roland Young, says he is not surprised that blacks fought. He explains that “…some, if not most, Black southerners would support their country” and that by doing so they were “demonstrating it’s possible to hate the system of slavery and love one’s country.” This is the very same reaction that most African Americans showed during the American Revolution, where they fought for the colonies, even though the British offered them freedom if they fought for them.

    It has been estimated that 40,000 to 80,000 Southern blacks served in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, “saw the elephant” also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free.

As the war came to an end, the Confederacy took progressive measures to build back up it's army. The creation of the Confederate States Colored Troops, copied after the segregated northern colored troops, came too late to be successful. Had the Confederacy been successful, it would have created the world's largest armies (at the time) consisting of black soldiers, even larger than that of the North. This would have given the future of the Confederacy a vastly different appearance than what modern day racist or anti-Confederate liberals conjecture. Not only did Jefferson Davis envision black Confederate veterans receiving bounty lands for their service, there would have been no future for slavery after the goal of 300,000 armed black CSA veterans came home after the war.

Ref: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm

Noted Examples:
1. The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at 1st Manassas (or 1st Battle of Bull Run) where they operated battery no. 2. In addition two black “regiments”, one free and one slave, participated in the battle on behalf of the South. “Many colored people were killed in the action”, recorded John Parker, a former slave.

2. At least one Black Confederate was a non-commissioned officer. James Washington, Co. D 35th Texas Cavalry,  Confederate States Army, became it’s 3rd Sergeant. Higher ranking black commissioned officers served in militia units, but this was on the State militia level (Louisiana) and not in the regular C.S. Army.

3. Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white confederate privates. This was not the case in the Union army where blacks did not receive equal pay. At the Confederate Buffalo Forge in Rockbridge County, Virginia, skilled black workers "earned on average three times the wages of white Confederate soldiers and more than most Confederate army officers ($350- $600 a year).

4. Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

5. Frederick Douglas reported, “There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the…rebels.”

6. Black and white militiamen returned heavy fire on Union troops at the Battle of Griswoldsville (near Macon, GA). Approximately 600 boys and elderly men were killed in this skirmish.

7. In 1864, President Jefferson Davis approved a plan that proposed the emancipation of slaves, in return for the official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain and France. France showed interest but Britain refused.

8. The Jackson Battalion included two companies of black soldiers. They saw combat at Petersburg under Col. Shipp. "My men acted with utmost promptness and goodwill...Allow me to state sir that they behaved in an extraordinary acceptable manner."

9. Recently the National Park Service, with a recent discovery, recognized that blacks were asked to help defend the city of Petersburg, Virginia and were offered their freedom if they did so. Regardless of their official classification, black Americans performed support functions that in today's army many would be classified as official military service. The successes of white Confederate troops in battle, could only have been achieved with the support these loyal black Southerners.

10. Confederate General John B. Gordon (Army of Northern Virginia) reported that all of his troops were in favor of Colored troops and that it’s adoption would have “greatly encouraged the army”. Gen. Lee was anxious to receive regiments of black soldiers. The Richmond Sentinel reported on 24 Mar 1864, “None…will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us.” “Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor.”

11. In March 1865, Judah P. Benjamin, Confederate Secretary Of State, promised freedom for blacks who served from the State of Virginia. Authority for this was finally received from the State of Virginia and on April 1st 1865, $100 bounties were offered to black soldiers. Benjamin exclaimed, “Let us say to every Negro who wants to go into the ranks, go and fight, and you are free…Fight for your masters and you shall have your freedom.” Confederate Officers were ordered to treat them humanely and protect them from "injustice and oppression".

12. A quota was set for 300,000 black soldiers for the Confederate States Colored Troops. 83% of Richmond's male slave population volunteered for duty. A special ball was held in Richmond to raise money for uniforms for these men. Before Richmond fell, black Confederates in gray uniforms drilled in the streets. Due to the war ending, it is believed only companies or squads of these troops ever saw any action. Many more black soldiers fought for the North, but that difference was simply a difference because the North instituted this progressive policy more sooner than the more conservative South. Black soldiers from both sides received discrimination from whites who opposed the concept .

13. Union General U.S. Grant in Feb 1865, ordered the capture of “all the Negro men… before the enemy can put them in their ranks.” Frederick Douglas warned Lincoln that unless slaves were guaranteed freedom (those in Union controlled areas were still slaves) and land bounties, “they would take up arms for the rebels”.

14. On April 4, 1865 (Amelia County, VA), a Confederate supply train was exclusively manned and guarded by black Infantry. When attacked by Federal Cavalry, they stood their ground and fought off the charge, but on the second charge they were overwhelmed. These soldiers are believed to be from "Major Turner's" Confederate command.

15. A Black Confederate, George _____, when captured by Federals was bribed to desert to the other side. He defiantly spoke, "Sir, you want me to desert, and I ain't no deserter. Down South, deserters disgrace their families and I am never going to do that."

16. Former slave, Horace King, accumulated great wealth as a contractor to the Confederate Navy. He was also an expert engineer and became known as the “Bridge builder of the Confederacy.” One of his bridges was burned in a Yankee raid. His home was pillaged by Union troops, as his wife pleaded for mercy.

17. One black  C. S. Navy seaman was among the last Confederates to surrender, aboard the CSS Shenandoah, six months after the war ended. At least two blacks served as Navy pilots with the rank of Warrant Officer. One, William Bugg, piloted the CSS Sampson, and another, Moses Dallas, was considered the best inland pilot of the C.S. Navy. Dallas piloted the Savannah River squadron and was paid $100 a month until the time he was killed by the enemy during the capture of USS Water Witch.

18. Nearly 180,000 Black Southerners, from Virginia alone, provided logistical support for the Confederate military. Many were highly skilled workers. These included a wide range of jobs: nurses, military engineers, teamsters, ordnance department workers, brakemen, firemen, harness makers, blacksmiths, wagonmakers, boatmen, mechanics, wheelwrights, ect. In the 1920'S Confederate pensions were finally allowed to some of those workers that were still living. Many thousands more served in other Confederate States.
 
19. During the early 1900’s, many members of the United Confederate Veterans (UCV) advocated awarding former slaves rural acreage and a home. There was hope that justice could be given those slaves that were once promised “forty acres and a mule” but never received any. In the 1913 Confederate Veteran magazine published by the UCV, it was printed that this plan “If not Democratic, it is [the] Confederate” thing to do. There was much gratitude toward former slaves, which “thousands were loyal, to the last degree”, now living with total poverty of the big cities. Unfortunately, their proposal fell on deaf ears on Capitol Hill.

20. During the 5oth Anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1913, arrangements were made for a joint reunion of Union and Confederate veterans. The commission in charge of the event made sure they had enough accommodations for the black Union veterans, but were completely surprised when unexpected black Confederates arrived. The white Confederates immediately welcomed their old comrades, gave them one of their tents, and “saw to their every need”. Nearly every Confederate reunion including those blacks that served with them, wearing the gray.

21. The first military monument in the US Capitol that honors an African-American soldier is the Confederate monument at Arlington National cemetery. The monument was designed 1914 by Moses Ezekiel, a Jewish Confederate. Who wanted to correctly portray the “racial makeup” in the Confederate Army. A black Confederate soldier is depicted marching in step with white Confederate soldiers. Also shown is one “white soldier giving his child to a black woman for protection”.- source: Edward Smith, African American professor at the American University, Washington DC.

22. Black Confederate heritage is beginning to receive the attention it deserves. For instance, Terri Williams, a black journalist for the Suffolk “Virginia Pilot” newspaper, writes: “I’ve had to re-examine my feelings toward the [Confederate] flag…It started when I read a newspaper article about an elderly black man whose ancestor worked with the Confederate forces. The man spoke with pride about his family member’s contribution to the cause, was photographed with the [Confederate] flag draped over his lap…that’s why I now have no definite stand on just what the flag symbolizes, because it no longer is their history, or my history, but our history.”
GG-father: 6th Ala Inf
GG-uncles: 6th Ala Inf; 19th Tn; Wirt Adam's Cav.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2004, 11:21:19 PM »
Good reply'sl.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Beekeeper

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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2005, 05:28:41 PM »
I don't like the garbage they are teaching in our public schools like the false belief that the South was (is) evil.
Most of my family is from West Virginia, South Carolina, and Ohio. Most fought for the Confederacy, but some did fight for the United States. J.E.B. Stuart is a distant relative, and most of my family in West Virginia served under him in the cavalry. One of my yankee ancestors fought at Gettysburg, Spotslyvania, and The Wilderness. He managed to survive all these battles despite being wounded at Gettysburg, and captured at the Wilderness-he escaped shortly after from his captors there to return to his unit. I have some ancestors though that I have been unable to trace so far since some left Ohio to join units in North Carolina, South Carolina, and I think some went to Georgia too. That war really did pit neighbor against neighbor.
Zach

Offline longwinters

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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2005, 06:10:39 AM »
I was born and raised "up north".  Still live there but wish I was even further north than I am . . . although I would be in Canada.  I asked my nephew, who teaches history in a local high school, and also asked my 18 year old son, from a different high school, what they taught or were taught about the Civil War etc.  Both said that it had very little to do with  the slavery issue but was, as many of you have stated, a power struggle over who was going to be boss (my own paraphrase).  

What is sad is that we see the horrific things going on in other countries with wars and sensless slaughter of civilians . . . and some of our people did the same thing to each other back then.  

Unlike many of you I do not have "roots/history" from back then as my family were immigrant farmers from Germany and Denmark from the very late 1800's.  But it still bothers me what can happen to a country if people don't keep their eyes open.

Long
Life is short......eternity is long.

Offline JBMauser

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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2005, 04:10:01 PM »
Come on guys, I can't believe men who are so well read about the war seem to want to Forget how it started and why.  Does anyone remember Kansas?  Anyone want to tell me that was about States Rights or economics or what ever.... That was the brush fire that started it, Then came Missouri correct? when Lincoln was elected that and the South new the had a "hardliner" in the Whitehouse they bolted.  He was not in the house when it all went to Hell was he?  Come on. we all carry around our feelings about the War.  Mine is interest wrapped in sadness.  We can all point fingers and talk about money, power and politics but you must not forget what the passions were BEFORE Sumter.  That is what caused the war.  what happened after Sumpter took on a life of it's own on both sides and neither side thought it would become what it became.  I don't know a lot but I know this.  If you want to discuss this point and you consider one day after Sumter you are being intentionally disingenuous.  If you can not look at what actually happened from Kansas to Sumter and look for the MAIN issue then why comment.  I guess we could argue if Kansas was the precursor of events that followed but please do not deny those events and please do not consider anything after the actual sessation of the deep south.  JB


( JB, you seem to have left out the fact that John Brown and his nut bags got their start in Kansas, killing" slavers" from Missouri.) (El Confederado)

Offline BibleBLever

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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2005, 05:11:44 AM »
In response to Shorty's post above, I would say that the issue of the war is taken so personally because to all of us Confederates, it was unjust, and the children in the schools are taught that it WAS just. The perverted history and the destruction of teh truth makes it a very personal issue for me. I don't want people to go around believing lies about the people who were right in the war. If you don't learn from history, you're bound to repeat it. Government takeover has happened before; the question is: "have we learned our lesson?"
BibleBLever

Offline Gatofeo

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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2005, 07:55:22 AM »
Re: the Emancipation Proclamation:
"... And Lincon only wrote it because he was afraid the South would free their slaves first. Then they might have fought the North!!! "
--- S. Sumner

I assume you can prove this? What's your source? Or is it opinion?

"When I can look back and know that My family once owned a large portion of what is now South Atlanta and basically had it stolen from them by a Northern Puppet Government set up here after the war ..."
--- S. Sumner

And where did YOUR family get that land? It was originally stolen, no doubt, from Native Americans.  Perhaps your family didn't do the stealing but a little perspective here ...

"One of the most terrible Humans ever to breath Gods air once said 'Those who do not remember history, Will be forced to repeat it'. That was a true statement from an evil man, it was Adolph Hitler.

Check your facts. It was George Santayana (1863-1952), Spanish-born American philosopher, who said, "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Oh, I agree that Sherman was a terror to the South. He got results and that's all that mattered to his commanders of the time. I agree, he should have been tried for war crimes but in those days trials for "war crimes" were virtually unknown.
I agree, the South could have been treated a whole lot better after the war. But then, blame one of your own for that: John Wilkes Booth. Had Lincoln been uhharmed I have little doubt he would have used his Presidential Fist to keep Union businessmen and soldiers from running roughshod over the South.
Lincoln's successor, Johnson, turned a blind eye to everything. When he left office, precepts had been established and no succeeding president wanted or cared to straighten out the injustices done to the South.

Of course, I'll be shouted down for my own opinions. After all, I was born and raised in the North (Washington State) and live in Utah (a financially powerful theocracy inconveniently located within American borders  :roll: )

But then, I don't expect objectivity in this site. Not when I see the title, "War of Northern Aggression" in one section.
Doubt I'll ever see, "War of Southern Treason" as a title in here.

Now, before all of you go flying off the handle you should know that treason is defined as, "The offense of attempting to overthrow one's country or of assisting its enemies in war."
Given that definition, the American Revolters were traitors; they tried to overthrow the existing government. My own mother was a traitor when she fought with the Belgian Resistance in World War II, since she was doing her part to overthrow the existing government (a Belgian puppet government controlled by the Nazis).

Well before the war there were terrible crimes committed by both sides, particularly in Missouri and Kansas.

As for what's in today's textbooks, I couldn't agree more that the schools are rife with Political Correctness. So is the media.
I was a newspaperman for 12 years before I came to Utah. A fine, old editor with more than 60 years of journalism experience pointed out that in today's media --- and going back decades --- there are three groups of folks you will never, ever see the media go after.
No matter how wrong they are, how ill-intentioned their cause, they will never be questioned or brought to task in the media.
Those three groups are striking teachers, Native Americans and environmentalists.
And he's absolutely right. I'm an old-school newspaperman who told the facts as objectively as I could, and let the reader decide.
I don't see that today, not in TV, radio (talk radio is the worst, because it introduces items as facts and rarely quotes a source, or the source is dubious), movies (clearly, certain agendas rule this roost), magazines or newspapers.

I agree with some of what you say, S. Sumner but not all of it. Frankly, I just wish all this bickering about a war that ended 140 years ago would end. We've become like an eastern European country, continually dredging up old hatreds and war borders generations after the last shot was fired.

As Thomas Jefferson said, "Can't we just all get along?"
(Actually, it was the 20th century convicted criminal Rodney King who said that, but this is the internet and I'm allowed to say anything I want without it being factual or objective. :roll: )
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline JBMauser

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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2005, 06:11:25 PM »
Well it is almost 10 months since my last post on this thread and so I will pick up like it was yesterday.  the comment about John Brown is a "so what?" how does that change anything?  My point to reply is to all.  Why do you all labor this issue?  Surely all must conciede the fact That Slavery would have collapesed under it's own weight after the war even if the North withdrew and the South stood seperate and individual.  The second point that all must consider and if you look at the world at that time you must acknowledge that if the North withdrew because of lac of resolve. the South would have been preyed apone by the hugely powerful countries in Europe and would have ceased to exist as a free country by the end of the Century "by hook or by crook" one of the European countries France or England would have made a tremendous effort to pull the South into their Empire and the North would not have been able to prevent it.  I study the struggle but it is clear to me that the South lost no matter which way the War turned out.  You all have to know that.  The best outcome I am sad to say was that the North won and Europe focused on each other to war against from the Prussina war with France through 1919! If lincoln threw in the towel, Europe would have fallen on the South and some may say they would have accepted it, and slavery would still have been overturned as Europe was out of that business! Lee knew that, they all knew that.  I guess I do not know why this continues to be debated as if the outcome if the South stood would have mattered.  I am glad not to speak French here in VA.  JB

Offline Jim N Mo.

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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2005, 07:51:04 AM »
When they teach that slavery was one of the main reasons for the W.B.T.S.  they are correct . The problem is when they teach that it was the only reason . In order to make it a more noble war it has become a war only to free the slaves , which it was not . To some that was all the reason they needed and to others it mattered very little .
     Most people today have a hard time understanding the loyalties that many felt for the state they lived in . Most of us have lived in several states in our lives and few live in , much less on the land of our forefathers .
      All of us have grown up with a strong Central Government and most  ( not all ) see no problem with that . Different story in the 1860's as many did not want the Federal Government to have the powers it now exercises . It is hard to fully understand the War if you are not aware of this .
       Today I know of no one who would support slavery of any race or religion . Yet to apply this mindset to people of the 1860's is unfair . They were raised in a different atmosphere and so felt very different . I see the same happening today to our Gun Rights . Even just 30 years ago , very few people would find it strange or wrong for a gun to be setting in a gun rack in the open or to be leaning in a corner behind a door , even a home with kids . There was very little gun crime then and the kids knew better than to mess with the gun . Today a growing segment feels it is wrong for us to own firearms in any way shape or form  and others feel it is fine to own them but they must be locked up . I fear in a hundred years that people will not even begin to understand why we thought it was important to own guns in the first place and that it was a right we deserved . I am not trying to compare the 2 issues other than to show how peoples thinking can change over the years .
     There is no way we can feel the same way and see things the same way they did back then because we have been exposed to so much they were not and vice versa . Then if we try to apply todays rights and wrongs on them , there is no way to make sense of it all . The more you read of their diaries , letters and books the better you understand them but there is no way to become them . I feel it is better to honor those who did what they thought was their duty whether I agree with it or not .

Offline spitpatch

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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2005, 04:42:52 AM »
Just linked to this thread........You guys know some stuff! Thanks for the higher education........I've always been a southern sympathizer and never been politically correct (never will be) and proudly display the Stars & Bars of the Confederate States of America. If this offends.......I do not apoligize.
Quality will be remembered long after price is forgotten

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2005, 11:30:35 AM »
I'd just like to ask:

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT, from GOVERNMENT schools, which kids are forced by law to attend-- and not for educational purposes, but to indoctrinate them with pro-government literature.... starting being forced to pledge allegiance to a flag, and the "Republic of the United States of America" for which it stands-- along with the outright lie, that the USA is "one nation, individisible--" along with the contradiction that forcing them into such government education-centers, corresponds with "liberty and justice for all"?

Schools exist to politically brainwash kids, in order to make them accepting and docile to arbitrary government rule-- that's it. That was also always the plan.
The Civil War established that the individual is not "dually sovereign" via being protected by both state and federal governments, but rather is subject to being ruled by both; likewise, his only recourse is the federal government against abuses by the state government-- never the reverse. Naturally, this leads to unchecked abuses by both.
Once this happened, it was only a matter of time before the end of freedom came not with a shout, but with a whisper.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2005, 11:47:19 AM »
Quote from: Jim N Mo.
When they teach that slavery was one of the main reasons for the W.B.T.S.  they are correct .


Actually, slavery was not the "reason" at all, but rather just a technicality of the conflict-- like tea in the Revolutionary War; the only reason, was the issue of sovereignty, i.e. whether the states or the Union were supremely sovereign. As such, slavery became a point of order, since the states held that the Union had no sovereign right to interefere with state domestic policy on this issue.
Likwise, the Union's reasons for such, are being heavily distorted; they did not seek to inhibit slavery out of humanitarian reasons of universal rights and liberty, but rather racist ones to prevent the expansion of blacks in mainstream society in new territories and states.
Prior to becoming president, Lincoln even had supported laws to prevent blacks from living in Illinois!
Finally, the entire Civil War was premised on the supposition that all blacks would be sent back to Africa when it was over-- never on the concept that they would be integrated into mainstream society-- no Northerner would have ever agreed to such a condition, and Lincoln would have had no support if this was revealed that this indeed would be the outcome.
As such, Lincoln made this promise of deportation lightly-- as he made all his promises-- and then once the war was won, he immediately reneged on it, stating that "it would be the death of them" (as if he nevever realized this while MAKING the promise), denying that he ever made such a promise, etc; indeed, I was reminded strongly of Bill Clinton after his victory in 1992, going back on his promises to allow Hatian refugees into the US, reneging on tax-cuts etc, claiming that things were different (which they were most certainly were not). Rather, the promises were simply Machiavellian, i.e. made via ruthless lies in order to achieve power-- which, once atained, could not be rescinded, and thus justified any means to attain it.

The deliberate omission of this fact, creates a willful distortion in understanding, and thus reverses the truth-- thus making the North look good and virtuous, when in reality they were heinous and racially intolerant by their own standards.

Likewise, the facts are hidden, that
1) both sides owned slaves in the Civil War,
2) that slaves were owned by all races,
3) that slaves were comprised by all races, with the first slaves being white, (and I DON'T mean "indentured")
4) That the Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in the North.

Hence, in direct opposition to the facts, the Union did not seek to end slavery in order to free blacks out of love of liberty, but to deport them out of racist hatred!

True, abolitionism did exist-- but never in the majority; rather, the notion of blacks being integrated into mainstream society and living among whites, was abhorrent to the average Yankee. Thus, by seeking to destroy the freedoms of the south, they found themselves hoodwinked by their own hand.

It's time we started facing facts on ALL sides.

Offline ironfoot

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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2006, 07:17:35 PM »
"Finally, the entire Civil War was premised on the supposition that all blacks would be sent back to Africa when it was over"

Didn't you claim the war was not about slavery?
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline BrianMcCandliss

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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2006, 09:57:43 PM »
Quote from: ironfoot
"Finally, the entire Civil War was premised on the supposition that all blacks would be sent back to Africa when it was over"

Didn't you claim the war was not about slavery?


Actually LINCOLN claimed that.