Black Bears, Lung Shot vs. Shoulder Shot?

[insanelupus]

Okay, hope I'm not beating on a hornet's nest here, but I have a question.  I've been hunting black bears in Montana for 2 years now.  I've only seen a few big enough I'd like to shoot, but haven't been close enough.  I normally hunt with a single shot Browning Hi-wall, .45-70 or .30-06 Remington 700 ADL.  The .45-70 I use a 405 grain Remington at around 1700-1800 fps, the .30-06 is a 180 gr. Sierra spire point at 2400 fps.  Anyway, I've always figured it would depend on circumstances, how near to a cliff, thickness of brush etc., as to shot placements.  But all things being equal, I'm looking for theories from those more experienced than I as to the benefits or disadvantages of Lung Shots vs. Shoulder Shots.  I understand, anchoring with a shoulder shot and following up with a coup de grace.  BUT, I can also understand the lung/hopefully heart shot they will die quickly, but may run a ways argument as well.  Ethics of hunting, safety of the hunter, are all involved here.  I'd just like to get some input from those of you that have, seen the elephant as it were.  Thanks for your input.  I'm interested to see the response.

[Cabin4]

Heart lung shot. No reason to try anyting else. If you hit heart/lung, it will die.

[talon]

Concur with cabin4. Again, this technique is for black bears. Brownies are a completely different thing.

[Lawdog]

insanelupus,

Bears are Bears.  Brown Bear or Black Bear both are carnivorous and can be hard to put down for keeps.  Don't underestimate a Black Bear or you could end up seeing just how good your medical insurance is(worst yet your life insurance).  I have seen Black Bears hit through both lungs go a long ways before dying.  I love bear hunting but learned a long time ago NOT to trust Black Bears.  About time you think you have them figured out they will throw you a curve.  SHOULDER SHOT ALWAYS.  Lawdog
 

[victorcharlie]

I agree Lawdawg........Hard for them to run if you break both shoulders, clip the lungs and hit the heart.........the shoulder is where it needs to be!

[HipShot]

There are four words that I was taught when I was young that apply to all dangerous game:

Go For The Bone.

[oso45-70]

Gentlemen,
You have all hit the nail on the head, As an X guide i have seen many rodeos at the kill site, Most due to poor shot placement. If you break the bear down you will have time to finish it off. If you don't he will have way too much time and that can be tragic. To the gentleman who is going bear hunting,,,,Best of luck to ya........Joe.........

[snowdog]

Spending years in archery hunting.  my first impulse is the  lung/heart
    area,   My son  got his bear this year with his marlin 336  30-30,
    one hit in the lungs,  it went down in under 25 yds........Just over a week
    ago
    a good friend borrowed my 45/70,  and took a bear,  he shot as I
    asked him too should he find bear.   I wanted to see just what my
    350 grn reloads would do so I asked him to take the shoulder shot.
              shattered both shoulders. and damaged out lungs!!! that from
   350 grn FN hornady  loaded up on  52 grns of IMR 3031.   the bear
   went about  2 yards that was only because the  bullet pushed him.

[IntrepidWizard]

SHOULDER ALWAYS,lung shot will activate your lungs.

[Cabin4]

I gotta tell ya guys, this is the first time I have ever heard that a shoulder shot is preferred on a bear over a heart/ lung. All the years I have spent in bear hunting and at bear camps, and I can never remeber a guide ever recomending a shoulder shot on a black bear. Theres no guarnatee that if you shoulder shoot a bear, your going to break both shoulders. You may break one, but he can still move with 3 wheels and without a vital hit, your in for a problem with little or no blood trail to follow.

Why risk or take any chances. I have never seen a bear that took a heart lung shot go very farl. The goal should be a boiler room shot that passes completly thru the animals vitals. No animal is going far with a heart/lung pass thru shot. Even if it does, you will have a good blood trail to follow. A shoulder shot is very risky and makes no sence at all. Even if you do break both shoulders, now you have a wounded bear that will require a follow up shot. If black bear hunting, which is 95% thick, big woods, who wants to deal with that !! Talk about the likly hood of using your like insurance policy ! Rummaging and crawling thru thick woods to find a wounded bear for your PLANNED follow up shot.

No bear, will live long at all with a vital heart/lung hit.

[insanelupus]

I'm glad I posted this, as I was looking for discussion from those that had been bear hunting and drawing from their experiences.  As I can see, this is about as pat a topic as asking a deer camp what is the "best" caliber.  I've studied the diagrams from both Alaskan Fish and Game that were posted in the Bear Hunting Forum, as well as those Outdoor Life put together.  I've also read an article from Craig Boddington describing actual aiming points, etc., for shoulder shots.  As it appears to me, admittedly, someone who has yet to kill a bear, the shoulder shot has a lot of if's involved with it, the number one being, if you truly try to take out the shoulder blade, upper shoulder itself, aside from the spine and maybe the artery from the heart, there's a slim chance of a lung shot.  If you go for the lower portion of the shoulder, or more aptly named, the upper leg, the chance of hitting the heart and lung increases, and at least the on side bone structure should be destroyed.  I have no real desire to go traipsing into the woods looking for a wounded bear, but I can't help but agree with those that would take the lung shot just behind the shoulder, and hold on the lower one third to take the heart and lungs, as they are as about as stable and as stationary as could be asked for when comparing them to the shoulder/leg structure.  All others who would like to weigh in I would be interested to read the posts from.  I'm curious as to those who have taken either shot, shoulder or lung/heart shots, and had to follow them up because they failed to accomplish their goal.  Theory is wonderful, but real world experience is better to learn from.  Thanks for the discussion so far.  Keep 'em coming.

[Cabin4]

Every bear I have ever shot has been a heart/lung hit. In every case, I have not had to go more than 40 yards to find my dead bear.

In every case I have seen at bear camp as a hunter or as a guide, all the heart lung hits are easy finds. Lots of blood and dead bear not far from the bait site. I mean like 60 yards max. There was one case were a hunter used a 243. In this case we had well over 100 yards, but still had decent blood. It was a perfect shot, but the 243 just did not do enough lung damage to anchor a 285lb bear. By the way, this caliber is to light as a reliable bear anchor. Last year we had one hunter show up with a 223. The camp owner refused to let him hunt with it.

In nearly every case were someone tries the shoulder shot or even worse, neck shot, we have issues with wounded bear, long tracking ordeals or even worse, we never find the wounded bear. If the shooter is skilled enough and has the correct caliber gun, a shoulder shot quartering-in may work because the bullet may pass thru the shoulder and then into the vitals. I say MAY, because after the bullet hits the shoulder, theres no telling were its going after that. It may never reach the vitals unless your using a very heavy round like a 338mag,375 mag, 45-70, ect. Last year I shot a bear with a quartering shot. The bullet passed thru the vitals and exited the his shoulder. This took out the vitals and a shoulder. He ran  20 hobbeling feet and dropped dead. The prior year I had the perfect  broad side shot, thru the vitals. Bear dead at point of impact.

Over the years I have seen literally hundreds of dead shot bears and tracked countless wound bear. All the best kills I have ever seen are a bullet to the vitals, PERIOD. By far, this is the your best insurance for a good clean kill. ALL the bad kills have been hits to non-vital areas.

Its real simple stuff. A bear cannot live long with a hole in his heart or a lung. He can live with a hole in his shoulder and many other areas of his anatomy. And your chance of the opportunity for a second follow-up shot are near impossible. As soon as your gun goes off, so is the bear. How many of us are capable of following up with a shot from a tree stand in the heavy woods on a bear running 30 mph ?

There is nothing fun about following a blood trail in the woods when it pitch black and you hear crashing in the woods ahead of you knowing your pushing a wounded bear. Now its time to retreat back to camp for the night and hope that he dies over night and pick up the tracking the next morning. As a guide, it usually brings on great praise from the hunter when you find his bear (if you do) and a very nice tip $$. But I still rather have the hunter save his extra tip$$ and prases for another occasion. There nothing better than going to pick up a hunter from his stand to find he has shot a bear. Take a walk over the the bait site and see good heart/lung blood right there. Then I know we have a vital hit and a dead bear not far.

Nuff said.

[rookie_j]

why has'nt anyone mentioned a neck shot?


shot my first bear in the neck, broke his neck, he dropped without taking another step. no tracking, no worries of finding a pissed off wounded bear in thick brush.

[Cabin4]

why has'nt anyone mentioned a neck shot?


shot my first bear in the neck, broke his neck, he dropped without taking another step. no tracking, no worries of finding a pissed off wounded bear in thick brush.

I did mention the neck shot. I recomend not doing it. It does not always work. A heart/lung shot is overall, the best way to go.

[IntrepidWizard]

You guys must be making long shots,mine are under 50 yds. and usually under 25 yds and moving.I will take the frontal head/breast shot or the shoulder shot,I have seen what happens to a man that lung shot a bear with a 444.

[Cabin4]

You guys must be making long shots,mine are under 50 yds. and usually under 25 yds and moving.I will take the frontal head/breast shot or the shoulder shot,I have seen what happens to a man that lung shot a bear with a 444.

And what happened to the lung shot bear with a 444 ? And wht would you prefer a head/breast or shoulder shot ?

[oso45-70]

Gentlemen,
It seems like we are talking about two different types of bear hunting. I'm from the south west and we don't have the jungle like conditions that most of you guys do in the northern part of the country. Our bears are found at the higher altatudes from 6.000 to 8.500 feet. We don't bait hunt we use dogs and this makes a lot of difference. when you catch up with the bear you have many things to consider depending on wheather the bear trees or backs up to a ledge or what ever. At this time you are right there with him, we are talking about feet not yards. In my case i will at least have one and maybe more DUDES and dogs and horses. The bear is hot and pissed off and i will assure you that a heart and lung shot will get someone hurt and dogs killed. I have been on well over one hundred bear kills and have not gotten any one hurt.. I can see where you all are coming from with the type of hunting you do. I guess if there is no one around close a heart shot lung would be fine but in my case it wouldent work at all. Good hunting to all you guys............Joe........

[Cabin4]

oso45-70,

I don't do anything with dogs, so this is an area I'm not very familiar with. There is a hound season for bear in Maine. But this is later and I'm not involved in it.

If your hunting bear over bait or fair chase, I can't see any reason, as a general rule, to use a shoulder shot. It just seems to make no sence and I don't understand what the goal is of a shoulder shot. If I speculate, and understand the goal to be that when putting the bullet into the shoulder it achieves two things 1). it breaks the bear down and he can't move and 2). the bullet will go into the vitals. I say). Aiming for the shoulder on a bear does not mean the bullets going into the vitals and 2) why try this shot when you can take the path of least resistance with a broad side shot to the vitals ?

Yes, if you make a shoulder shot and the bullet makes it into the vitals and exits, this would be a good shot. This is a task for the heaviest of calibers only. If this does not happen, you made the hunt significantly more difficult and you have a pissed off wouned bear on your hands. So why risk it, just make the broad side shot and be done with it. No bear will live long from a well executed pass thru vital shot. If he manages to go off into the woods or wereever, you will have a good blood trail to a dead bear. All the talk about a bear charge after a vital hit is significantly over rated. Even a large coastal brown is significantly more likly to retreat after being hit. After all, how does the bear know were you are anyway in the case of a bait hunt or fair chase ? I can see this being an issue in the case of a hound hunt.

[IntrepidWizard]

Cabin,when he was "retrieved" ,he was is several pieces.

[oso45-70]

cabin4,
All i can tell you is when you have several people in a very small area
plus your dogs and horses. The first thing you must think about is the safety
of the people and your dogs. Ideally if the bear trees you don't have much of a problem. If not you have to keep the bear from killing the dogs
and raising cane in general. The best shot is if the bear is looking your way is to take a center shot hoping to reach the spine which will be into the vitals. I wish i could take you on a bear hunt with dogs but thats not possable. I had all my dogs poisoned in 1966 and have not hunted bear since. I may not be able to put words togather very good but when it comes to hunting i don't take a back seat to any one, While you were giong to school i was out making a living hunting and trapping. I didn't have the opportunity to make it past the eight grade in school. So if it seems like i'm a dummy.....You are right but don't sell me short on lifes
experiences. Been there done that. good luck..........Joe........

[Lawdog]

oso45-70,

I too used to run hounds but not for bear.  Bobcats, fox and such were my targets then.  Sold my hounds when I went into the service but I still keep a Bluetick around as a reminder.  Tell you what, you find the SOB that poisoned your hound pack and I'll help hold the idiot while you shove some of the same stuff down their throat that they fed to your hound pack.  And I'll buy the beer to drink while we watch SOB roll around on the floor.

cabin4,

Aiming for the shoulder on a bear does not mean the bullets going into the vitals and 2) why try this shot when you can take the path of least resistance with a broad side shot to the vitals ?

I too have been in many a bear camp(Black Bear, Brown Bear and Polar Bear) in my life and I have never heard a bear guide recommend a heart/lung shot over a shoulder shot.  In all the bears I have taken or been in on their kill, I can’t think more than 25(+/-) were true broadside targets.  Most were an angle shot of some type so you have a good chance of taking out the vitals while taking out a leg.  If you only take out one leg with a shoulder shot the bear will most always drop at the hit giving you time to get in another shot.  Also a three legged bear moves a lot slower than a four legged bear.

While a neck shot will put your bear down” hard”, as they like to say, it is a chancy thing to try.  Too much of a chance of ending up with a wounded bear that you are going to have to follow(this will separate the men from the boys while making you unpopular with your insurance company).  The spine shot goes into the same category as the neck shot.  A Black Bear is a dangerous animal and deserves the respect given to any dangerous animal.  Lawdog
 

[oso45-70]

Lawdog,
Like i said in my last post, If you are in a tree or hidden in the brush some where and you was by your self it might be ok to take a heart lung shot but not in situation we were in. Some one said the wouldent run more than a few yards, Thats great but, when you are like we would be
if the bear had that much git up go he sure could do lot of damage in just a few seconds. I have seen bear shot in the vitals and when they are heated up they can be a hand full.

AS for my hounds getting poisoned, I tried every thing in my power to find
the sorry Ba$$$$d that did it, There was a logging camp about 1/4 of a mile from my place and i'm sure one of the loggers did it but couldent prove it. My old strike dog cost me 4.000 dollars and this was in 1966.
That same dog today would coat 7 or 8 thousand dollars. Out of six dogs four were poisoned. You can rest assured if i had cought them they would not ever do any thing again. I loved my hounds and they made me a lot of money. It took all the starch out of old Joe, Never been bear hunting again. Take care Lawdog.........Joe.......

[Cabin4]

Lawdog,

There must be a geographical difference or something at play. In all my years of hunting bear, I have never worked with a guide who would recommend a shoulder shot on a bear as a general rule. Setting my personal experience aside, I have read a few articles now and then, that have discussed the shoulder shot option on bear and the associated risks and rewards. But from what I remember, is that all these articals ended in a similar way, and that it is risky.

Anyway, here are some words from a man who is well known through out the US as likely one of the best authorities on black bear hunting. The following quote is from Wayne Bosowicz, pro guide and owner of Foggy mountain Outfitters:

" The black bear demands shooting excellence before he will fall to a hunter. Even at these close ranges, a precision shot is essential. Your target is a 5 inch square (boiler room) area just behind the front shoulder"

Who is Wayne Bosowicz ?
"Even his competitors agree that Wayne Bosowicz is the best black bear guide in the world."
  -Dick Metcalf,
   Shooting Times
   Handgunning
    Magazine

From the Alaska Fish & Game web site on shot placement for bear hunters:
" The correct answer is the heart-lung vital zone. Any other shot has too great a chance to wound the animal "
"The best shot placement is when the animal is broadside to the hunter or slightly facing away"

I could go on and on listing the traditional broad side shot as the preference for killing bear. But I thought I would offer these two from well know authorities. Another point, unless you have the perfect angle on a bear, there are are vitla behind the shoulder.

[Rmouleart]

The heart and lung shot is the best shot for a bear, he can only run as far as he can hold his breath, A head shot is the fastest kill, but there head is always moving making it hard to place your shot, if you opt to shoot the shoulders, remember the bullet most of the time will take the course of least resistance, so you may find your bullet will deflect, but if you do penetrate and break shoulders the bear can't run at all, but thats the chance you take shooting a heavy boned animal. You would not believe how well a three legged bear can run;) I wait for the front arm to step forward, then I put one behind the shoulder, never had any problems with lung shots, the problem shooting bears, there body fat can plug the holes and it makes it hard for tracking, just mark your last point and circle till you find another spot, most of the time you will find your bear no more than 100 yards away curled under a tree taking a dirt nap;) Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

[snowdog]

I certainly don't claim mass knowledge on bears.  but  350 - 400
   grains of bullet traveling at 1900 FPS.   doesn't deflect off a black
   bears bones.   yes,  I agree a heart/lung is almost a must with
   the 30-30 rnd.   My  45/70  blew thru both shoulders.   It did as
   the  Tribal guide I was talking to said it would.

[Cabin4]

I think this is an important point.

The vitals on a bear are not sandwiched between the shoulders. The vitals are lower than the shoulder and towards the rear of the shoulder. On a broad side shot, if the aim for the shoulder, you will shoulder, no vitals. On any shot at the shoulder, its high above the vitals so this is the risk. Yes, it may imobilize him if you can take out both shoulders. Now you likly have a wounded bear wirth 2 broken shoulders and it requires a follow up shot to the vitals. As the bear lay there wounded or trying to get away, how likly is it that a vital shot will present itself ? Unless you were luky enough that the shoulder hit delivered enough impact to cause CNS damage.

Just seems like the safe bet thats known to work, is the good ol fashion broadside vital shot. I also think a frontal hit to the brisett can work. I would leave this work to the heavy calibers on a big bear.

[Gowge]

A GOOD shoulder shot will often take out the top of the heart or the arteries comin' out the top that go to the brain.   A high shoulder shot is risky, but can take the spine if you get lucky.   When either happens, it's lights out for Mr. Brown or Mr. Black.   Study the anatomy so you know where to shoot a bear.   Heck, if you never seen one in the wild before, go visit the local zoo and check out the bears!   Take this diagram with you...

Lotsa' guides & hunters been mauled or killed by bears with their hearts and lungs turned to mush, but bones intact...

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/hunt_trap/hunting/huntak/huntak16.cfm



GOOD LUCK!   :wink:

[DirtyHarry]

On any dangerous game the first thing I want to do is take away it's capacity to hurt me,and a great way to do that is to break at least one (preferably both) shoulders. Once this is done you are at a great advantage. I have personally seen whitetail deer run almost 100 yards after receiving perfectly placed vital shots, both from a centerfire rifle and a shotgun slug (have also seen them go down in their tracks from the same shot). So if this can happen with a deer there is no reason to think it couldn't or doesn't happen with bear. So mark me down for a shoulder shot..

[DelGue]

I always take the shoulder shot with a heavy bullet.  It breaks them down, plows into the innerards, and puts them on the ground.   A follow up shot is much easier.

The bears out here in the Mtn West seem to me anyway, tuffer to kill, than the bears back east.  Maybe its because their meaner and orneryer than the eastern bears.

Never use the neck shot.  It's to easy to miss it and I do not recommend it.  If you sever the spine it's a done deal, but their is to much margin for air.

[Lawdog]

Gowge,

Lotsa' guides & hunters been mauled or killed by bears with their hearts and lungs turned to mush, but bones intact...

True, so very true.  A heart/lung shot has let many a bear, Black Bear included, travel father than many would believe.  Lawdog