Author Topic: Black Mag 3 Powder (Read 5522 times)

Keith Lewis · « **on:** October 03, 2004, 03:47:41 PM »

Has anyone had any experience with this powder? Their advertisments sound like the best thing yet. I am about to send for four pounds since I have to pay $20.00 Hasmat fees for $25.00/pound powder. I have tried American Pioneer (Cleanshot) and 777 and Pyrodex loose and pellets. So far the AP looks the best to me for lack of crud after the first shot. AP sticks seem to have a wide variation in weight which bothers me, 777 is probably the next best if you don't use a 209 primer. My Omega has been converted to the .25ACP rifle primer set-up.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 04, 2004, 12:40:42 AM »

I have not tried it, I am having great success with the triple7 and the 25ACP conversion. It will be hard to beat 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards.

Let us know how it works for you. :grin:

Bob_K · « **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2004, 05:51:55 AM »

I shot some of the original Black Mag 3 and it was very good. Left just a little grey ash in the barrel, and I don't remember any crud buildup. I made that one container last thru five years of hunting. Stored well, and the little bit of clumping that was evident in the later years of storage was gently broken up with a brass rod. I'll give the new production run a try when I find some. From their website, it looks to give a bit more velocity than 777 for a 300 grain/sabot combination.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2004, 12:30:35 PM »

I ordered mine from Midsouth Shooters Supply. Since I had to pop for the $20 hasmat fee I bought four pounds.

Cuz · « **Reply #4 on:** October 07, 2004, 07:51:52 AM »

what is the URL for Black Mag powder?? it sounds good, as Keith alluded to. always looking for a cleaner burning powder.
am puzzled tho, talk is that you use LESS? how much less. what is recommended load for a .50 inline? 209 ignition.
currently shoot 90 or 100 gr RS with most of my loads and get satisfactory results.
did a search and could not find a thread on Black Mag but this one.

Cuz

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** October 07, 2004, 08:10:31 AM »

Found these...
http://www.blackpowderjournal.com/vol1no4/articles/blackmag.html

http://www.cabelas.com/products/Cpod0027585.jsp

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0023200310

I found the Black Mag3 web site about a month ago or so, but it's being pretty elusive, now.

Bob_K · « **Reply #6 on:** October 07, 2004, 08:39:32 AM »

The Black Mag 3 website is:
http://www.magkor.com/index.html

Cuz · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2004, 04:38:18 AM »

Thanks for the URL, I found the other sites from quckdtoo on Google. this stuff 'sounds' to good to be true. But, on my next order to Midwest there will be a request for some of this 'magic'.
The costs was mentioned, but IF the low charges indicates are accurate, you will save $$ using Black Mag 3.

boy oh boy, redhawk1 really has a thing for his 'conversion'. . . and I quote "great success with the triple7 and the 25ACP conversion."
Heck, I converted once, from PBR to Michelob, but I let it go, figured folks could tell I was more elequant as a drunk on Mick rather that PBR.

But, what do I know?? Anyway, thanks for the URL and I will give this stuff a try. Certainly sounds good.

Cuz

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2004, 06:45:21 AM »

Mine should be here next week and as soon as I get it I will be off to the range. I have tried real black, pyrodex, 777, clean shot, clear shot and American Pioneer powder. So far I like AP and 777. I have the .25ACP conversion and still get some powder ring with 777. Sometimes I can load a second shot with a Powerbelt bullet but it is difficult. AP allows a second shot most of the time but a swab between shots still works better. The Black Mag3 actually recommends no swab between shots for best accuracy. For my hunting I think this one is going to be the nuts. American Pioneer sticks really vary a lot on weight especially compared to the weight of Pyrodex pellets or 777 pellets (yes I'm one of the reloader guys that measures volume and then weighs charges to see if they are consistent). I think weight is more accurate than just volume;
however, I have had some groups with 777 where I had variable volume when I had to rush my shooting due to bad weather and they seemed to shoot pretty accurately. I will post when the BM3 gets here. I'm guessing next Thursday.

Bob_K · « **Reply #9 on:** October 08, 2004, 09:54:59 AM »

Yes, Keith, let us know. I'd be particularly interested in your observations on BM3 vs 777 in power/velocity for same weight charges.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2004, 08:22:21 PM »

I will do that. I just got my chronograph back. Had to send it in for repair. I burned through the front of a cheap model Chrony and now will be shooting with a shield in front of the readout. Muzzleloaders are a little rough on chronographs. I am not quite as concerned about the comparison of 777 to BM3 for power as I am about fouling. I really want to be able to easily reload a follow up shot that is accurate (hit same point as from a clean barrel) and from the BM3 ads that should be possible. 777 usually comes close but the second shot without a swab is a little difficult to seat completely without more force than I am comfortable with. I am leaning towards Powerbelts for my Elk hunt mostly because I can reload them more easily. I have some 300gr. Hornady SSTs that I would really prefer if the reloading thing can be fixed. I will be shooting the BM3 out of a .50 Omega (stainless) and a .50 Pursuit LT (Blue). Probably will shoot 348gr. Powerbelts, 300gr. SSTs, and some cheap lead 300g. 45 bullets in Harvester sabots for starters. Much more and I will be there for a week.

VTDW · « **Reply #11 on:** October 08, 2004, 11:32:27 PM »

I e-mailed Knight Rifles a question about using the Black Mag3 in their rifles. I will let you know if they respond.

Dave :-)

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #12 on:** October 09, 2004, 06:05:01 AM »

As a point of interest. I picked up another bit of information. Black Mag was out as Black Mag2 which apparently compared to FF black powder. It is now only being advertised as Black Mag3 which I assume means it compares to FFF black powder. I do not think they any longer stock or advertise Black Mag2. I think they found the finer grains work better across the board which is similar to reports I am getting on American Pioneer and/or Clean Shot. For what it is worth.

VTDW · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2004, 11:09:56 AM »

Here is the response I got from Knight Rifles:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DEAR SIR;

THE BLACK MAG THREE IS SAFE IN OUR GUNS. WE HAVE NOT DONE A LOT OF TESTING WITH IT AS FAR AS HOW WELL IT SHOOTS YET.

THANKS

Steve Widmar
KNIGHT RIFLES
21852 HWY J46
CENTERVILLE, IA 52544

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Williams [mailto:williams.dave@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 5:44 PM
To: customer_service@knightrifles.com
Subject: Black Mag 3 Powder

I have been reading quite a bit on various hunting/gun forums about Black Mag 3 Powder. Does Knight have an opinion about the safety of this black powder in their rifles? If so, I would appreciate a response.

http://www.magkor.com/index.html

Thanks,

Dave Williams

Nic_58 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2004, 02:24:55 PM »

Quote

(yes I'm one of the reloader guys that measures volume and then weighs charges to see if they are consistent). I think weight is more accurate than just volume;

Keith, I do the same thing. I weigh all my Triple 7 charges on a scale. Every little thing helps when shooting for small groups!

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2004, 10:11:48 AM »

Just got my order of four pounds of BM3. I hope to be out this week-end or just after to get some data. Stand by!!!

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2004, 07:54:22 PM »

Here is the schedule for the evaluation: Plan to shoot the matrix on Wednesday if everything works out. I have not tried the chrono since I got it back so I am a little edgey about function with the protection added. I should have data by Thursday and be back to the computer by Friday. If all goes well I will post results Friday.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #17 on:** October 21, 2004, 05:56:33 PM »

OK Here are the results:
SETUP:
1. Weather cool 60 deg. F. windy with gusts increasing throughout the test.
2. T/C Omega 50cal. stainless (which has been difficult to load sabots since I got it)
3. First comparisons shot with 25ACP conversion using Winchester std. rifle primers.
4. Bullets 300gr. flat nose in Harvester Sabots
5. All powder charges 100gr. volume checked for weight and all loads corrected for weight.
6. 3 shot groups each load shot at 100 yards.
7. When required wet patch was T/C with No. 13 bore cleaner.
8. Black Mag3 is very fine (fffg??) all other powder was ffg
SHOOTING RESULTS:
BM3
First three shot group was with BM3. Group measured 7/8 inch center to center and velocity averaged 1920fps. No swab between shots and all loaded as easy as the first. Recoil was surprisingly mild for the velocity and the fouling was almost none. Only a slight gray powder on the patch after the three shots.
CLEAN SHOT
Next three shots with Clean Shot accuracy over 2 inches (with gusty wind)
velocity averaged 1670fps. Recoil about the same as BM3 above. Required wet patch between shots followed by dry patch (broke one ram rod trying to load without it) Medium gray fouling rather easy to remove.
777
Next three shots with 777 accuracy about the same 2 inches (with gusts)
velocity averaged 1643fps. Recoil was sharp and painful! Required wet patch between shots, sometimes two then dry patch. Fouling more difficult to remove than Clean Shot. Fouling medium gray to black and somewhat difficult to remove.
BM3(control group)
Since fouling was increasing and velocity appeared to be decreasing a second control group with BM3 was shot. Accuracy not as good as before approching 2 inch groups but wind gusts pushing me around on bench. Velocity average 1865fps. Fouling same as first group and all three shots loaded without swab between shots. Confirmation that test data is good to here.
BM3 (with 209 primer)
For anyone that is still using a 209 primer I shot one group to see if the primer had any effect. Winchester 209 had velocity average 2004fps. I gave up on trying for accuracy due to wind gusts. Second and third shots were possible without swab however there was a slight hint of a very mild crud ring with the 209 primer which was not apparent with the rifle primer.
Recoil was similar to group shot with rifle primer.

Based on data to date my conclusions are:
1. BM3 has more energy per 100gr. volume than ffg Clean Shot or ffg 777.
2. BM3 recoil is more manageable (likely due to pressure rise rate which accelerates bullet more slowly as bullet travels barrel) Final velocity greater with less perceived recoil. I love the feel of BM3, I hate the feel of 777 which is sharp and painful (in case if forgot to mention painful)
3.BM3 fouling practically non-existent. Multiple shots possible without swab between shots which does not appear to affect accuracy. Slightly worse with 209 primer but still allows multiple shots without swab.
4. Clean-up easy and BM3 manufacturer claims non-corrosive (I have not checked this out yet)
4. The only negative I can find is $25.00 a pound if you can find it.

I WILL BE USING BM3 FOR MY ELK HUNT THIS YEAR.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2004, 06:01:20 PM »

Forgot to mention the comparison was shot at about 7500ft. elevation which is where I Elk hunt.

Flatland Hunter · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2004, 02:51:57 AM »

Thanks for the report!! I have read of similar reports from other ML'rs as BM3 begins to get out there... hopefully the prices will come down, sounds like T7 will have a challenger if only they can stay afloat.

AndyHass · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2004, 03:01:27 AM »

Just want to mention that the important factor in a ML is pressure, not grains. We all know that a gun advertised for 150gr Pyrodex/BP is only supposed to get about 130 grains of 777. If BM3 produces more velocity for a given weight, you should probably drop the max charge accordingly. Higher velocity = higher pressure, for the most part. From your data I'd guess you'd want to stop around 120 grains.
Thanks for the report.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2004, 11:55:15 PM »

At almost 2000fps with a 300gr. bullet I have no intention of shooting any more than 100gr. loads of BM3. I actually will probably start working down to see if I can get decent 100yard accuracy around 85 to 90 grains (volume). The soft recoil indicates to me that the powder is accelerating the bullet rather than socking it hard at the start so the pressure rise rate is more gradual than what is experienced with 777. The only thing I am concerned about is making sure there is enough upset of the bullet at the start of the ignition to insure decent accuracy (this is critical with Powerbelt bullets). I had some bad experience with Clear Shot that Goex made for awhile when I tried 80gr. of that powder (Powerbelt bullets would keyhole at 100 yards). According to CVA the pressure rise rate was too slow to properly upset the bullet into the rifling causing instability. The fine grain character of this powder also tells me that a 100gr. volume load is packed full of energy due to the density of the charge. With the breechplug covered with one layer of pink teflon tape and a small amount of choke tube anti-seize I had no problems removing the breechplug with any of the loads I shot. I have some 348gr. Powerbelt bullets that I will likely try with around 80gr. of BM3 next time I go out. Anybody have a pet bullet that needs to be shot with this powder? I will try to do some trials for the first couple of weeks if I can get the bullets locally.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2004, 12:15:18 AM »

Keith Lewis, I found the Shooter's Choice All Weather High-Tech Grease works great. I shoot a lot of triple7 and I never have the breech plug hard to remove.

scienceguy · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2004, 03:47:17 AM »

Keith,

I've been following this line concerning Black Mag 3, and I appreciate your efforts in getting some first hand data out. I am definitely a fan of any product that increases the accuracy of my muzzleloader, or makes loading and clean up less of a hassle. There isn't much information out there concerning use of this powder. You offered to test some other bullets in your last post. I have had excellent accuracy with 777 and 295 grain copperclad Powerbelt hollowpoints. I get groups between 1 and 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards. I use the same 25 ACP conversion that you do. I would switch in a second to Black Mag if it has the burning characteristics to allow the plastic belt to seal the bore and if accuracy is comparable to what I am getting now. I don't care what the ads say, cleaning 777 takes longer than what the ads lead one to believe, especially when doing it away from my bench in a deer camp. I can get away with two shots before I have to swab the bore. I would love to be able to load a series of shots, if I needed to during a day of hunting, without having to swab the bore. I know that isn't really that big of a deal, but finding a simpler, better way is, well ...better! I would appreciate it if you could find the time to test some 295 grain powerbelts. Black Mag 3 is not exactly filling the shelves in my area at this time. As soon as I can locate a supply, I'll test my own rifle. Any additional input from you would be great! Again, thanks for doing some groundwork for the rest of us.

scienceguy

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:16:10 AM »

I am reluctant to try it. Reason is, no one around where I live stock it. I can get triple7 anywhere.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2004, 12:00:11 PM »

I couldn't find it locally either so I ordered some from Midsouth Shooters Supply. I have sold a pound to a friend and after he falls in love with it we will get together and order more and split the HazMat fee. I plan to try some 295 Powerbelts next as I intend to hunt with either that or the 348gr. Powerbelt or the 300gr. SST. Apparently I have a difficult time making up my mind. So far I have killed one Elk with a 348gr. Powerbelt one shot big cow and she went 30 yards and fell over shot through center of heart. I expect that the Powerbelts will shoot just fine with BM3. The velocity I got on the first trial tells me the pressure should be there for the base of the bullet to seal. My Omega shoots Powerbelts with Pyrodex and at 80 yards I have shot touching four shot cloverleaf groups. As soon as I get additional data I will post. Thanks for reading and adding to the trials. Multiple shots are the norm with BM3. I would guess that I could shoot all day without spit patch or swab between shots. Apparently that is not a big thing with most but for me and big Elk it is a big thing. I hunt alone most of the time and do not want to chase Elk to the bottom of a canyon before it drops.

SAW · « **Reply #26 on:** December 20, 2004, 03:02:42 AM »

I will be heading to Cabelas next week and have read the above post. I guess I was wondering now that people have had the chance to use it for a hunting season I wondering if they think it is better than T7? Advantages, Disadvantages, Accuracy? Power? Clean up? They all seemed great in the above posts just wondering if the opinions have changed. Also if anyone thought it would be becoming more available in local stores?
SAW

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 20, 2004, 04:06:14 AM »

I have spoke with a couple of local gun shops, and they are not going to carry it. Reason is lack of interest in M/L shooters. They say triple7 is the number one seller. (Pellets and power)

Critter · « **Reply #28 on:** December 20, 2004, 04:57:51 AM »

I have been looking for it locally with no luck. I have gotten the same responses as Redhawk, no one has asked for it and we sell a lot of T7. I would like to try it in my ML and in cartridges for CAS. I am heading to Cabela's after the holidays so maybe I'll get a lb to check out.

DannoBoone · « **Reply #29 on:** December 21, 2004, 04:19:48 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

I have spoke with a couple of local gun shops, and they are not going to carry it. Reason is lack of interest in M/L shooters. They say triple7 is the number one seller. (Pellets and power)

Heck, a lot of ML shooters haven't heard of BlackMag3, so how could
they even request it? Hodgdon has had a very successful marketing
campaign with T7, whereas the makers of BM3 (I don't even know who
makes it) have seemed to try to keep it a secret! A previous moderator
of this forum is claiming in other forums that he got a pound of it, and it
was just one big clump -- he's making sure BM3 is getting plenty of
negative advertising. Personally, I would trade my 2 1/2# of T7 for a
pound of BM3 just to try it -- T7 causes such a horrible crud ring in my
Encore that it's very difficult to get a spit patch through the ring after even
one shot. More power to those who like it, but I'm using up the rest of
my Clear Shot before shooting one more shot of T7 (don't care for the
"smack-whack" job it does on my shoulder, either -- another reason I
would like to try the MlackMag3).