Author Topic: does NEF make barrels ???? (Read 1976 times)

ScatterGunner · « **on:** October 04, 2004, 11:40:14 AM »

hi -

my 223 arrived last week and it had some tooling marks and burrs under the scope mount rail. this prevented the scope rail from seating properly so back it went to the factory for a bit of cleanup.

while i was talking to the lady there at the factory, she mentioned that "the barrels arrive at NEF with the scope rails installed so they would have never seen the tool marks"

hmmm !??!! they don't make their barrels or even install their own scope rails

?

anyone here of this ? i thought NEF was manufacturer, not just an assembly house.

sg

(california bound again this wednesday for a week)

handirifle · « **Reply #1 on:** October 04, 2004, 05:04:48 PM »

News to me. maybe marlin moved the operation when they took over.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2004, 05:27:41 PM »

Based on the rifling style, it's a safe bet that Marlin is making the barrels for the NEF subsidiary. When this happens, and it happens a lot with corporate mergers, the subsidiary lacks the control over the supplied parts that it has when it builds them itself or when it buys them from an outside source. NEF has to take those barrels and the person responsible for the defects may be higher in the corporate structure than anyone at NEF.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2004, 06:17:10 PM »

The last time I spoke with James Garrison, he told me that H&R barrels are made by Green Mountain Barrels and shipped to the factory. I think if Marlin where producing them, we would see micro grove rifling :roll:

Don't know :?

Paul5388 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2004, 06:29:24 PM »

I think I remember the Montanan being right about certain barrels being made by Green Mountain. Those are probably the barrels that aren't micro grooved and the micro grooved are Marlin products. Seems like there was a mention of Green Mountain on the old forum.

Fred M · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:04:30 AM »

The grooves in my rifle are are only 0.002" deep. Never seen a rifle barrel with that shallow of grooves. Don't know whether they are "Micro Groove", but they certainly qualify as micro for sure.

As I mentioned before the groove diameter on mine is 0.0015 to big. Whoever makes these barrels either does not now how or makes them too big on purpose, or they have no quality control.

A barrel that much out of specs should be scrap, but I am stuck with mine, can't send it back. But somehow they seem to get away with sloppy barrel and chamber work.

I never heard of anybody on this forum that slugged a bore to cherk the size. It would be intresting to know how many barrels are out there that are out of specs. Fred M.

BuzzKill · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:59:20 AM »

I guess I've always assumed they got their barells from someone else because the CS is always refering to 'when they get the next bunch of barells in' when calling to ask about barell fitting time or when to expect new calibers. Several people will be waiting for the same caliber barell addition, and then all at once they mysteriously get done within a week or two of eachother.

As a side note, can anyone give a brief overview of the types of rifling and their pros/cons. I guess I've always taken this for granted. BuzzKill

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2004, 06:23:01 AM »

I don't know who is producing the barrels after the Marlin merge, but I was told by someone who should know that Rossi used to be the supplier.

jeff223 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2004, 07:37:59 AM »

i remember from the old nef talk that some one said the muzzle loader barrels came from Green Mountain.the green mountan barrels are very good quality. knight rifles have green mountain barrels, Knight and green mountain barrels may be one in the same.i dont know for sure but that is what i think.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #9 on:** October 05, 2004, 09:37:18 AM »

I have never heard and do not believe that Rossi has ever made any barrels for H&R. I have been told by CS however that sometime after Marlin took over, the .22 Rimfire barrels began to produced by Marlin in the Micro Groove style. The older H&R .22 rimfire barrels were of 6 and some 8 groove style, the newer ones, the more accurate ones, are produced by or for Marlin and are of the micro groove style....<><.... :grin:

handirifle · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2004, 10:09:09 AM »

Fred M
I must say I'm suprised you even keep your NEF rifles. I haven't seen you post ANYTHING good about yours.

These are NOT $1,000 rifles. Oh for the record ALL their barrels are not oversized. The bore on my Buffalo Classic was .450 and the lands was .457, hardly oversized for a .458 caliber.

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2004, 10:37:01 AM »

i think fred m gives a pretty darn good, and accurate, analytical analysis of the handi's he has. in retrospect, if you don't read too deep into what he says, you would think he uses the barrels for tire irons and the stocks for firewood. ! (haha !)

his comments provide insights into the designs and engineering that went into building these $100 price range rifles.

one thing in particular he mentioned a while ago was that his 25-06 handi has larger than specified groove (?) or was it throat ?. that round is a pretty hot little number and i'll bet those barrel dimensions where used by design to keep the rifle in one piece.

just a thought ! :grin:

and my 22 rimfire handi shoots real nice too ! scrubbed it up nice and shiny, cleaned out the factory crud and put a box of LR's and a box of shorts through it, what a fun gun !!!

sg

Fred M · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2004, 10:38:33 AM »

handirifle.
Perhaps not over size but not any where near in spec. Does it actually group? No I won't say anymore about that 25-06 Ultra, since I am going to give it away. With what I have done, it shoots not too badly. This is the only one I ever had and no won't ever buy another one. You just have given me a good reason to say good bye. The experience has enriched my shooting know how. See you later alligator. Fred M

handirifle · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2004, 11:51:30 AM »

Too bad if you leave, but I just don't think its fair to the rifle or maker to judge them soley on the experience with one rifle. It's like if I had only shot the 165gr Nosler through my Savage 30-06. it grouped no better than 5" no matter what I tried. Yet the Savage puts the Hornady 165gr into 1",3 shot groups or less on multiple groups.

I guess I could say savages are junk and group no better than 5" or that Nosler bullets are junk. My point is NO manufacturer make perfect rifles and even top compaines make junk sometimes.

If you hade gotten 3 or 4 rifles and ALL had this sort of problems it would be safe to blame the companie and suspect overall quality. But the fact is too many posters here get outstanding groups with the 25-06 to declare NEF's junk.

I've had issues with my son's 223's but now they are beginning to really shoot well and I have to say I am pleased with them.

I sometimes buy power tools at harbor Freight, but I do not expect them to work or last like Milwaukie tools. In most cases, you do get what you pay for. In the NEF you MOST times get a very accurate servicable hunting rifle.

If that makes you want to leave then so be it. Your call.

handirifle · « **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2004, 12:04:31 PM »

Fred,
I appolgize if I offended you. I have often called others to task for these same reasons. In my opinions these are fine little rifles, for the money.

My post was not meant as a personal attack but more a call to reality in what we're dealing with as far as these rifles go.

You obviously have a LOT more smithing experience than I do and many here respect your experience and opinions. If I pissed you off it was not intentional, but I can and will defend these little guns when the need arises. Like you, I have opinions too.

All I was saying was keep it into perspective. It's too bad your first time and aparently only experience was a bad one with these rifles, and there is nothing we can do about the border issue. 9-11 changed a lot of things for our country and sometimes good things are washed away with the bad. But I understand the reasoning behind the laws.

Going or staying is your choice, just wanted you and everyone else to know what my post was really about.

hellacatcher · « **Reply #15 on:** October 05, 2004, 01:07:43 PM »

My wife thinks I have a closet full of NEF's the only one I have had a real issue with was a 280 ( took it back) I know they are not benchrest guns but are a lot of fun to try to make them into one, and it is a lot of fun when they do real good and out shoot the hi dollar stuff . :-D

Mohawk · « **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2004, 02:42:14 PM »

I've never had a problem with NEF or H&R products. I don't expect three shots to cover a quarter at even 100yds with my .280. But it brings home venison and pork with authority and that is why I bought the rifle. I've had experience with "superior" higher-priced rifles and when it comes to the hunting fields.........I HAVE NOTICED NO DIFFERENCE. So I don't really care what the rifling specs are. As long as the thing kills game the way is does it makes no difference, at least to me.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:23:03 PM »

Fred M., Please realize I love you like a brother and wish you would stay around............, but to Handirifle, Hellacatcher and Mohawk, this one's for you - :agree: :toast:....<><.... :grin:

handirifle · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:43:33 PM »

Thanks MSP

Fred M · « **Reply #19 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:52:45 PM »

handirifle.
Thanks for the appoligy.
Well you just rubbed me a bit the wrong way. I am well aware the Handi is no BR rifle. The point I am trying to get across really is that too many owners take it too easy on H&R. Not a day goes by with out somebody sending a rifle back for all sorts of reasons.

If I was living in the States I would get after these guys big time. It is not fair to the buyers to keep sending guns back. You are wrong by intemateing that I don't like the Handi's. I think these rifles are really nice to handle, very simple to operate, and with the exposed hammer very save. Good scope mounting and quite good looks and finish.

I ment what I said by never buying another one, at least not for myself.
I am a wildcatter by heart and these rifles are not the best canditates except the 30-30AI for very obvious reasons.
The work I did on my 25-06 is really not in the books for most home tinkers, and some of that work should not be needed.

I used 19 brand new 30-06 RWS cases to do the load testing, This brass is about as good as you can buy besides Lapua. Most cases after eight reloads show signs of case head seperation. Because of the latch moving and pushing the shoulder back in shape to establish proper head space three to four thou each time. O fcourse the cases are toast now. That speaks for a very poor lock up. No sweat if you use factory fodder.

After this the rifle will not see any more handloads. Since my friend is not a handloader. I had him promiss not to use anyones handloads.

There is no reason why the latch could not be made to fit better, and a stronger spring to hold it in place. No?

These are the item I gripe about. Well I wont gripe about the barrels any more, its of no use in Canada. I did a few things right when I shrank the groups down from 4" to nearly 3/4 at 100 m with several three shot groups.

If these rifles came out of the box shooting 1-1/4" you won't hear no squags from any body. With a little more attentention to details H&R can do it. So what is being done about it? I have been in engineering when I was working, we never got away with poor design and products. Fred M

handirifle · « **Reply #20 on:** October 05, 2004, 07:00:49 PM »

Fred
You're welcome and like I said that wasn't my intent.

Good points all but I do feel that the gripes we see here are a small percent of the rifles sold and many are just happily used.

The have to make choices that control costs vs quality. Some of them should be easy and cheap to fix and tthey SHOULD be made aware, but collectively we have a greater voice for them to hear.

bubba · « **Reply #21 on:** October 06, 2004, 12:37:23 AM »

I own a 25-06 ultra. I shoot 117 grain sierra game king btsp in front of 51 grains of IMR 4831. It is a heck of a shooter. I just wonder if all the negative stuff would be said if the other 25-06 would have shot well. Fred where are you in Canada? I have a brother in law in southern Ontario who would but the gun from you. Send me a pm if you are interested.

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** October 06, 2004, 04:24:56 AM »

Bubba.
The rifle is not for sale, because I bought it for a gift to a friend. If I would not have been able to make it shoot, I would have sold it. At present it is
tuned and tweaked to shoot the Rem 100gr factory loads very well indeed. In that way it is unusual, because I never had a gun that would shoot as good with factory loads as my best handloads.

It was a heck of a job. Not just one thing but a whole bag full. Of course accuracy is one thing to some persons and something else to another. Many folks are quite happy with a 2" group or random flyers that they discount and only look at the two shots that are close together.

Thanks for the offer just the same.

Fred M.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #23 on:** October 06, 2004, 05:41:34 AM »

Fred don't you dare leave, your knowledge is far to valueable to some of us hear. I still want one of your springs when you get time. I know exactly how you feel about these barrells,because I have the same problems with mine. Any time I can't beat the accuracy of a Rem. corlokts, I get very upset. These things have about drove me crazy trying to get the heavy barrels to shoot right,and the spring thing you tried just may be the answer. While I'm at the keyboard, I bought a bull barrel on a 95 Mauser action a few wks. back and the barrel has what appears to be blue heat rings about 2" apart the length of the barrel. It has not blued,so I think its been heated treated somehow. Is this normal? The only groups I've tried was 40gr. of IMR 3031 and 168 gr match sierras,and they make 1 hole at 40 yds. It's a 308 cal.( probably a little to much for the 95 action). Digger

Fred M · « **Reply #24 on:** October 06, 2004, 02:51:53 PM »

Ditchdigger
What I think you have on your barrel are heat treating marks, or what is called stress relieving. The barrel is placed in a furnace with a row of small blue flames directed at the barrel while being rotated. Once the metal has reached a certain temperature the heat is turned off and the furnace with the barrel is allowed to cool until room temperature is reached. Which will take several hours or over night. Or some such system often twice between machining operations. and rifleling.

Stress relieving is also done in liquid nitrogen 300 below zero, cryogenic stress relief. Good stuff to keep a barrel walking around. Many gun barrels are done this way.

Oh I forgot that 95 Mauser was not designd to handle 60kpsi, don't know what they can stand, But I guess the 308 could be close to a proof load. Better use that barrel on 98 action. Or else have the old action Rockwell tested.
Fred M.

De41mag · « **Reply #25 on:** October 06, 2004, 04:27:51 PM »

Fred M;

I seen where the thought of you leaving this sight has come about. And just had to speak up. Your knowlage and input about these rifles, are something not to be taken lightly. Your help to others has been unselfish. We sure like having you around and hope you stay. It's a pleasure to have someone like you from the Great White North.
Hope you stay, ehh. :grin:

Dennis

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #26 on:** October 08, 2004, 03:56:36 PM »

i'm out in california this week, last friday, before leaving, i called NEF to see when my 223 handi would be done. the barrel had tool marks and burrs on it and i wanted that cleaned up. they said it would be returned by last wednesday.

so here it is friday, a week since i talked to them, and the rifle hasn't shown up. i called home today to see if it arrived, nothing.

on the surface, it looks like NEF had a lapse in quality control, and now they seem to have had a lapse in meeting their promises.

the last three rifles or barrels i bought had to be returned, my 17 sportster had firing problems, the 223 lacked in craftmenship, and my 410 barrel was lost in the shuffle last fall at the opening of quail season.

this doesnt change my opinion on NEF stuff, i still like my handi's ! but if you are like me, you like your toys, want them to be perfect, and want the people who make them to be forthright and prompt with their commitments.

i'm watching the debate between president bush and john kerry. check out kerry when he talks, he uses the same thumb-over-fist that clinton used. the thumb action was one of james carvilles' best ideas !

sg

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #27 on:** October 11, 2004, 05:37:53 PM »

hi all -

i called NEF this morning to inquire as to when they would be shipping my 223 back. to refresh your memory, the barrel had a bunch of tool marks and burrs under the scope rail when i received it so i sent it back to have that stuff cleaned up.

the nice lady told me that they had to send the barrel out be refinished, and, it had arrived back today. they will be boxing it up and shipping it out tomorrow, tuesday.

so it is safe to say that NEF doesnt make their barrels, nor do they repair or refinish them.

still not a problem for me, i like the stuff they make ! i need to send my 22 rimfire barrel back for iron sights, probably a month or so to do that.

sg

MSP Ret · « **Reply #28 on:** October 12, 2004, 02:14:59 AM »

SC, I am not sure if it is true or not but when I was looking for my .22 Mag Sportster for a short range coyoye gun (100 yards and under) I was looking for the Micro groove barrel. I was told that since the Marlin take over that Marlin was going to start making the barrels (Sportsters?) and if I waited until all the older non-micro-groove barrels were used up then the Marlin MC barrels would become the norm. Now all the Sportsters barrels are MC, as well as are most other H&R barrels....<><.... :grin:

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #29 on:** October 12, 2004, 02:45:09 PM »

funny you mention this msp -

i was doing an al gore (looking down the barrel) and noticed how shallow the rifling in my 17 and 22 were compared to other rifles.

i shoved a piece of softened paraffin down the barrel from the muzzle end then slowly twisted and pulled it out. the grooves looks pretty much "Micro", can't be more than a few thousandths.

trying to measure the grooves was difficult, couldn't use a micrometer or caliper directly. the wax seens to hold the dimensions but is pretty much impossible to work with using regular tools.

not that i really need to know the rifling depth, but do you know any simple tricks to get a measurement shy of casting the chamber and barrel ?? maybe lay a piece of wire in the grooves that just fills the groove ??

sg