Author Topic: Barrel loosness (Read 955 times)

Donaldo · « **on:** October 04, 2004, 07:07:00 PM »

I only have one handi so have nothing to compare mine with. Except one I handled up at the gun store today. My rifle is the 223 Ultra. When it is open there seems to be a lot of wiggle waggle side to side. (Thats tech talk). :roll: I miked the barrel lug and the slot in the receiver where it sets when closed. There is about 0.014" clearance. I put a brass 0.010" shim between one side but doesn't seem to make any difference. Also the firing pin hits the primer off center. Only had one misfire so far and only once the barrel unlocked when fired. Not sure but I may not have had it locked good, but surprised me just the same. Now the question is... Do I have a problem here or is this standard slop for the Handi. The one I had in my hands at the shop today felt nice and tight when open.

lik2hunt · « **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:09:19 AM »

Hey Don

Sounds like a call to H&R Customer Service is in order here. They recently replaced my Ultra....no kidding......getting a Brand new one and extra barrel replaced that had been fitted to my old one. That number is:
978-632-9393.
If they ask you to send it in to them then you ask them to issue a UPS call tag and it won't even cost you anything to mail it in.

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2004, 03:50:01 AM »

You guys are lucky to be able to send in your guns. Yes I had to solder two shims on the lug and fit them. I also used Decon Steel to bed the barrel into the action. Together with the stronger latch spring all is now rock solid. Fred M.

oktx · « **Reply #3 on:** October 05, 2004, 04:14:51 AM »

My 243 handi had some vertical play and a gap between the barrel and the breech face. How good are your groups, mine would not group at all. I sent it back and the work order said that they heat treated the barrel latch and this took care of the problem. oktx

Donaldo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2004, 06:12:52 AM »

Thanks John,
Well my rifle locks up nice and tight, no movement either way and no gap at all between the barrel breach and receiver. Just loose as a goose when it is open. And it shoots the WW white box 45 JHP stuff pretty good. Always 1.25" or less at 100. Some even down around 1/2". Haven't had a chance to shoot any handloads yet, just got the shell holder for my old Herter's press the other day. Loaded up some varget with 50 grn Speer TNT HP. The other commercial cheap junk shoots anywhere from 2" to all over the place, (Wolf steel case stuff). In case anyone needs any Herter's stuff give me a PM, I know of a guy that specializes in Herter's stuff.

Fred,
I diked my latch lug and there is contact only at each side, none in the center of the latch. I don't want to start honing the lug latch but that minimal amount of contact concerns me a bit. Am contemplating doing a trigger job but am going to wait on suggestions and probably will talk to customer service. Will try to get a trigger job if I do send it in, but mine breaks at 4-4.25 lbs. This still feels like a ton as my other rifles all have adjustable triggers, down around 1.5 to 2.0 lbs.

Fred M · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2004, 06:43:29 AM »

Don.
You don't want to do any honing on the latch only on the latch seat on the barrel below the chamber, and only very little. Nothing at all on the rear edge. I peened the rear edge up to suit the radius travel of the latch to make a concave latch seat. Because the bottom of the latch is round and the seat is straight. After peening I enhanced the seat with a small amount of Steel Bed. Two part Devcon Steel epoxy will do it too, I think?

With the accuracy I am getting now there is no more movement in the latch. If you take out the latch you can stone the forward face to get rid of some rough mashine marks for max forward travel.
Two .032" washers in the in the latch spring hole will give you a bit more pressure against the latch. See my write up for more details. Fred M.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2004, 08:56:30 AM »

Donaldo, the only thing that is a safety concern is looseness when closed. Since your is tight with no space between the end of the barrel and the breech face when closed your good to go. The looseness you describe is caused by space or play between the rear of the plastic spacer which is screwed to the rear of the forearm and it's mating surface on the forward curved section of the receiver. The spacers come in several (at least 3) different thicknesses. The proper thickness is dependant upon and must be judged by the location of the internally threaded lug which is attached to the barrel that is used to attach the forearm and the distance between it and the forward end of the reciever. The forearms are fitted at the factory with the plastic spacer which best accomplishes the task of least "barrel wobble" that you describe and being loose enough to open and close smoothly and easily. To see what I am explaining, remove the forearm completely and check the amount of side to side looseness or wobble in the barrel. Either replace the plastic spacer on your gun with one a bit thicker (by thousands of an inch) or make a shim out of a piece typing paper, either one of 2 thickness's should have yours nice and tight when open. The spacers are held on by 2 phillips head screws inside the curved part. Also be careful when checking play or looseness with the forearm removed, the barrel will just fall off if not held in place by hand. I have switched and swapped several of these from gun to gun, forearm to forearm, for myself and for friends to remedy just the problem you describe.

Remember as long as the gun locks up securely with no excessive space between the barrel and breech face (not taking headspace issues into account) your good to go, and safely also....<><.... :grin:

Donaldo · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2004, 11:47:43 AM »

MSP Ret,
Thanks for the info on the plastic spacer. Don't know why I didn't think of that because I had used a round rasp on the hole in forend. I opened it up a bit because I thought it fit too tight. Trying to float the barrel,etc. That is why I have the wiggle, waggle when the barrel is open, DUH. :shock:

Hey, Fred,
Don't leave us now! Who we going to rag if you leave.

Seriously, Fred, how did you devcon your receiver? Are you talking about putting devcon down in the recess where the barrel lug goes?

Also something I just noticed recently on my ultra. You know how the scope base sticks out over the contour of the barrel, about 1/4 of the rail is free floated above the barrel. It has a set screw that you can turn down until it contacts the barrel. Well I did this, not really any pressure, just kissing the barrel a bit. It changed the point of impact and also the rifle did not shoot quite as good as it did. So I turned it back out till it cleared the barrel. Will see maybe tomorrow if things went back where they were. Can't remember when I had a rifle that I liked to shoot as much as my handi.

Fred M · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2004, 04:52:41 PM »

Don.

Quote

Seriously, Fred, how did you devcon your receiver? Are you talking about putting devcon down in the recess where the barrel lug goes?

No you don't want any Devcon along side the underlug. The barrel would get stuck. The Devcon goes only in the top rounded part. Careful not to get it in between the standing breech and the barrel. I did not do it all the the way, only 3/4" in two places on each side. That is behind the hinge pin and in front of the standing breech. The Decon Steel I use is industrial type and is machineable. Don' forget the release agent

You have to do a light sanding and use a thin epoxy prime coat, because Devcon Steel does not stick too well by it self. It is quite dry withvery little
catalist.

What I did with the scope rail is to glue it down with epoxy and tighten the screws. Apply release agent to the screws. When all is set up and solid I then bent the piece of cantelever rail down with a clamp about 1/16".

Then you tighten the front screw until the rail is back up level and lock it with the set screw as before. You now have tension on the rail and barrel, vibration will act on the rail in the same manner for each shot. This has worked well on my rifle.

I had thought of soldering a steel block to the barrel and drill and tap for the screw for a solid fit if you needed that front rail slot.

If you put shims on the underlug they have to be on both sides and fitted well. Good slow epoxy will hold them in place or solder them like I did.
Always remove oxidation or bluing for a good bond.

The forearm hinge cap should also be bedded solid with Steel bed. As a matter of fact my forearm is bedded solid to the barrel with foam with the forearm screw very tight against the rubber washer. This is a dampened free float. Fred M

MSP Ret · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2004, 01:48:55 PM »

Donaldo, How did your gun shoot when you backed off on the (Ultra) scope rail forward stabilizing screw? I am interested if the groups again went to as good as before you lowered the screw to just barely touching the barrel....Thanks in advance for the info....<><.... :grin:

Donaldo · « **Reply #10 on:** October 06, 2004, 04:48:15 PM »

MSP Ret.
Well I didn't get to go to the range today. It rained. Plus I had to work about 4 hours this afternoon. Probably won't get to go Thurs either as I have voluntary work to do. Friday looks like a maybe if weather holds. I don't like to go on the weekend, all the working folks are at the range on the weekend, plus I think we are having a rifle match this weekend or maybe it is next weekend. Anyway soon as I get a chance I will go and then report results.
Hey, by the way. Fred or someone, is there a way to calculate the rpm on bullets? Say at X rpm out of a 1/X twist barrel. Reason is, I have some Speer TNT's that say don't fire at more than 3400 fps out of a 1/10 twist cause of the thin jacket. I suppose they will explode before getting to the target. Anyway, how fast can you push them out of a 1/12 twist barrel. I'd like to use them in my 22-250, but nearly all the loads start above 3400 fps.

Fred M · « **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2004, 06:05:55 PM »

3400 ft/se 1:10"twist= 4088 RP/sec or 244800 RPM
3400 ft/sec 1:12 twist = 3400 RP/sec or 204000 RPM

204000/244800= .8333 or 16.66% 3400x1.166 = 3964 ft/sec is what you can push it with a 1:12 twist.

A 22-250 should have a 1-14" twist. Most .224 bores use too much twist.

Fred M.

Donaldo · « **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2004, 10:15:08 AM »

Thanks Fred,
See, you are needed here. I could have eventually calculated it myself but that would have required me to do some serious thinking and I knew you would have it right on the tip of your pencil. My 22-250 has a Shilen barrel with a 1/12 twist. Lets you shoot slightly heavier bullets than the 1/14. Guess I will be aloadin' up some of them pretty little bullets and see what they can do. What powder would you recommend Fred.
Edit: I think Fred went goose hunting if I bemeber right.
Anyone else got recomends on powder, say 4895......

Fred M · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2004, 04:08:32 PM »

36.0gr IMR 4064 55gr bullet 3700. 26" 1-14" twist. I wore out the barrel with this only load. I tried others but always came back to this load.

39gr IMR 4320 with a 50gr bullet at 4000 ft pretty hot load but the 55 gr worked much better at longer ranges. Fred M.

MINNESOTA DICK · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2004, 01:57:38 PM »

Donaldo,

I have been shooting 50gr TNT's out of my Ruger #1 220 Swift 1-14 twist at 3754 fps average thru the corny with no problems. They group about 1 to 1 1/2 inch at 100 yards.

Check out page 155 in the Speer #13 loading manual. They talk about using 50 gr tnt's at about 3600 to 3700 fps.

I hope this helps ya out. :-)