Are trade union members all idiots?

[Questor]

I've seen the pro-gun literature prepared by the Kerry campaign and distributed to some of the trade unions. It makes him sound very pro gun and pro hunting. Of course, anyone who reads or even bothers to check basic facts knows this isn't true.  

Are all of you trade union members idiots? Or is the Kerry campaign just treating you like you are?

[oso45-70]

Questor, Some Maybe but not all. What strikes me is most of the union workers are hunters and outdoors men and woman and how they could swallow the stuff that the Demo.s are trying to sell is beyond me. If i was standing in water up to my nose and John Kerry said your shoes are wet i would probobly drown checking my shoes. BUSH all the way and FLUSH THE JOHNS..........Joe..............

[CJ]

I am a Republican and a Union member. It boils down to Reps= gun friendly and labor hostile or Dems= Labor friendly but gun hostile. Kinda rock and a hard place. I vote for guns, and catch a lot of flak over it, but can see both sides of the issue. Then you throw in a "moderate" Dem who only wants "sensible gun control" and only wants to ban most guns to really muddy the waters.

[Dusty Miller]

I'm a Teamster and work in a can plant in Oakdale, CA.  To answer your question, NO, not ALL union folk are idiots.  However, we can usually easily spot those that are, they wear Jimmy Hoffa tee shirts!!

[myronman3]

I've seen the pro-gun literature prepared by the Kerry campaign and distributed to some of the trade unions. It makes him sound very pro gun and pro hunting. Of course, anyone who reads or even bothers to check basic facts knows this isn't true.  

Are all of you trade union members idiots? Or is the Kerry campaign just treating you like you are?

i dont know.  am i?   :-D  

it really burns me that my money is pumped into this jackasses campaign.  i dont even like my union.  but it is a good job and sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.   unfortunately,  i think too many are of the mind that kerry is better for us.   even some of my friends who know better support him.   too bad.   and i am damn tired of these jerks calling me.  the last few days,  6 calls and 5 were from kerry campaign.   too bad they are pre-recorded or i would let them have it.  

to me it is more important to vote for national security over gun rights.  either way, bush gets my vote.

[IntrepidWizard]

http://hometown.aol.com/enero57/page14.html

[gwhilikerz]

National security over gun rights? I will never vote that way because without gun rights we have no security.   I think it was Ben Franklin who said that we should never give up freedoms for security because without freedom we have no security. (or something like that). I am a Bush supporter but certainly not because of the homeland security scare.

[arky65]

National security over gun rights? I will never vote that way because without gun rights we have no security.   I think it was Ben Franklin who said that we should never give up freedoms for security because without freedom we have no security. (or something like that). I am a Bush supporter but certainly not because of the homeland security scare.

he who trades freedom for security deserves neither

[Dand]

Before I retired I was a member of a bargaining unit that was affiliated with AFL-CIO.  It really bugged me that the AFL-CIO could use MY money to support political campaigns I totally disagreed with.  I'm not sure if laws have changed but I think all unions and trade groups should be PROHIBITED  from using any member funds for any political activity unless they have the permision of the individual to do so.  So a union would have to solicit funds from individual members for a specific use.  

I've also wondered how many union jobs have been lost or threatened by all the political efforts (thanks in part to union anti gun funding and platforms) to bankrupt legitimate US gun makers?

And any members of AARP or NEA take note of their positions on gun ownership and use.

[hvacman]

No not all of us are idiots. I find that mainly the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation members are the real koolaid drinkers. The sensible members have to keep their mouths shut for their own sake.

[myronman3]

National security over gun rights? I will never vote that way because without gun rights we have no security.   I think it was Ben Franklin who said that we should never give up freedoms for security because without freedom we have no security. (or something like that). I am a Bush supporter but certainly not because of the homeland security scare.

gentlemen....the point was not that i think we have to give up guns or rights for national security; but that i usually vote gun rights as the sole deciding factor.   this year,  i am voting for national security as the sole factor in who gets my vote.   the irony here is that whichever issue i would be placing first,  the same man would get my vote.   catch-um?

so please dont go flying off half cocked accussing me of giving up anything;  it isnt my style.  

[papajohn428]

I am an unabashed one-issue voter.  Gun Rights, Period.  If a politician believes in my right to self-defense and bearing arms in case my government gets out of control, he and I probably agree on other things, too.  Funny how that works.

The way I see it, if the Second Amendment falls, the rest of them are as good as gone, too.  And the way Kerry talks (out of the left side of his mouth) the Bill of Rights is in big trouble if Kerry gets elected.  Goodbye America, Hello U.N. soldiers.  Praise the Lord and Pass The Ammunition.

Papajohn the Patriotic Pistoleer

[michbob]

OK, it's a bit off topic, but here's a thought or two.  

Firstly, I live in a union town;  all over, I see posters complaining about W. shipping jobs overseas.  Question:  Who signed NAFTA?  Democrat Clinton.  

Secondly, I see many posters saying:  "Support our troops.  Vote for Kerry."  Would he support our troops like he did when he returned from Vietnam?

Say Union Yes!(?)

WAY off topic, but Kerry publicly supports pumping Great Lakes water to states that support his agenda.  Is that eco-friendly?

Sorry for the spiel.  I'm bad.

Michbob

[jhm]

Well for the most part the union OFFICIALS are always telling the rank and file members ( we can get this for you and the company owes you this and that )  sounds kinda like the DEMOCRAT party doesnt it.  Just something to think about.    JIM

[rockbilly]

Personally, I'm not satisfied with either candidate.  This is the only election I remember (and I've been voting for 50 years) where there is no clear "better candidate."  We are voting for the lesser of two evils.  It's kinda funny if you think about it; there were 52 beautiful and well qualified candidates from whom a Mis America was elected, and two clowns from whom we must choose a president.

I like Bush's position on firearms, but beyond that, he and his crew of "experts" have us as a nation in major trouble.  As President he is charged with protecting the national intrest, and yet from the beginning he has established government policy as an extension of his political dreams.

I'm not wild about Kerry, but he may be the best choice to lead us out of the rut we're in.  Stay with Bush, we keep our guns, and end up not only with a fractured Iraq, but a fractured America, at war with itself and isolated from the rest of the world.  Our current situation reminds me of a phrase from an old country song by Merle Haggard titled "Are The Good Times Really Over For Good."  The phrase goes; "are we rolling down hill like a snowball headed for hell, with no kind of chance for the flag and the liberty bell."

Unless we change our ways, our children and grandchildren will pay a terrible price for our sloth.

[williamlayton]

Rockbilly-
That was a well thought out response.
I find myself with a number of conflicts in choosing a president and more and more it is clear that it is not the candidates which are the culprits, it is the two party system.
I wish we could get away from the party system and vote the candidate. The candidate for office SHOULD be responsible to the constituents which elect he/she.
While I have the soapbox, I wish we could get away from putting the President on such a pedistle. I believe the Congress should get much more press and concern from us, as voters.
Blessings

[unspellable]

I can't remember ANY election where I wasn't voting for the lesser of two evils.  We need a viable multiparty system.  How to get from here to there is the question.

[Mikey]

rockabilly and unspellable - fellas we have a multiparty system, it's just that the majority of Americans don't want to listen to anyone from any of the non-major parties.  Yes, we have the nader-green party, the conservative party, the independent part and of couorse the dumbocrats and republicans.  I really don't think we are going to find ourselves at war internally - possibly a vocal war, which we always have around election time, but not a fightin' type of civil war.  

And, Iraq - that will end and we will come out ahead on that.  There will be democracy there, the people want it.  Al-Sadr is shutting down and the last of the Hussien loyalists are sort of cornered in that one Sunni area, which the interim Iraqi government is now looking at going after.  It may not be a perfect start but there will be a freely elected government there.  No one thought that would ever happen in Afganistan but guess what, it's gettin' there.

Now, as for the two major party candidates - are union trade members all idiots - I dunno BUT, the union folks from Remington firearms gave kerry an engraved Remington 1100 semi-auto shotgun, one of those that would be banned under a continuation of the assualt weapons law.  Nobody said anything about the legality of accepting a firearm out of state, or about transfer forms or anything like that.  kerry benefited from a violation of the laws, the same laws he wants to enforce.  He's a lyin' politician who wants nothing more than the power the white house can afford his ego.  

I don't think I could ever vote for someone who tells me out of one side of his mouth that he is the hunter's friend, advocates for the 2nd amendment, yet seeks to change the Constitution and deny us our 2nd amendment rights out of the other side of his hypocritical mouth.  

Sorry fellas, I know this isn't the 2 penny forum but ya'll got my two cents worth anyhow.  Mikey.

[arky65]

well the good times have been over for sometime now. but that does not mean there is no hope. but untill we get the demodunce and republidums parties back in line with what is best for the country and not special interest group that fund their campaigns it does not look to bright.
 :x
arky65  

downsizedc.com

[JOE MACK]

It's a rotten state of affairs when the union heads think they can tell you which way to vote. I think Bush is more at home with the middle class while Kerry thinks we should all be butlers or maids. Those Remington workers may be all on the unemployment line should Kerry get into office. If Kerry is a hunter/sportsman, then I'm a prima ballerina! Also, I could never vote for some SOB that bad-mouthed me and my brothers- in- arms while safe in the world from a (urg) four month tour of duty after receiving band-aid wounds. :x

[rockbilly]

Mikey,
   Don't forget the Reform Party started by Ross Perot.  When he jumped in several years ago, I thought, we got a good one, he thinks like I do.  He was going fairly strong and decided to bail out?  He had some good ideas, only problem, Ross's way was the only right way.  Kindly like Bush.

     I compare our involvement in Iraq to Vietnam, it's a war we CAN'T win.  As long as there is a living, breathing Muslim, we had better be looking over our shoulder.  Sure, we may be able to establish some form of civilized government, have elections and put our puppets in office, but the Sunni Muslim leaders will continue to influence their flock to strike out at Americans around the world.  How long have the Israelis and Palestinians been fighting?  Check your Bible for an answer.  The point is, once they classify you an an enemy, you are an enemy forever.

     I served two tours in Vietnam, I thought it was for a good cause, and thought we were fighting a war we could win.  I felt like crying as I watched saigon being evacuated on TV.  Looking back, we were fighting to gain freedom for people who did not want to be freed.  From what I hear from the returning troops, I think the people of Iraq feel the same way.  I work in a Logistics area where I deal with Army and Air Force on a daily basis,  I think I'm getting good information on the subject.

     Bottom line, I truly think Bush got us involved in this war in an attempt to save face for his father's shortcomings in Desert Storm.

     As for Kerry and the 2nd amendment, do you really think he has the power to change to constitution and deny us our 2nd amendment rights?  Not unless there are some major changes made in the Congress and Senate.  The Republican party is so strong in both houses I don't think he could waltz that change through.  With a few seats on the other side of the isle, maybe.

     I'm getting off this subject, but before I go let me say, I am a registered Republican.  However, I have never been so tied to the party that I wouldn't vote for someone in that other group if I thought it best for the City, County, State or Federal government.  My major issue with Bush is Tom Delay.  Bush and most of the Texas Republicans are his puppets.  As a result of Tom Delay's influence over them, the State of Texas is in sad shape, and I think, if left along, the country will be in the same trap.

[michbob]

Ummm...Actually the Muslims and the Jews got along quite well until very recently in history.  During most of the Middle Ages, while Christianity and Islam were duking it out, the Jews were allowed to live in relative peace in Muslim areas--there were exceptions, of course.  In Christian areas, they got toasty.  It's only been within the last hundred years or so that Jew and Muslim started really fighting, mostly over Israel.

Secondly, I kinda question the good old days theory.  My 89-year old grandpa always tells me that the good old days--weren't.  Despite the retoric from the neo-socialists, he says today is nothing like the Great Depression.  He also thanks God that his kids and grandkids don't have to work like they did, at subsistence levels.

The only news you hear is bad--by choice of the media.  Think on this kiddies:  we (the US) at 6% of world population, produce 25% of all goods and services in the entire world.  No wonder the rest of the world hates us!  They can't keep up!

Do we really want to allow a Kerry-type leftist drag us down to the standard of the rest of the world?  No thanks.

Michbob

[Graybeard]

Yeah but you forgot to mention we consume 50% of them. Now that's why they hate us. They're jealous. :roll:

[Mikey]

Graybeard - you are absolutely right - they are jealous.  They are jealous of our ability to produce so much and hateful of us for not sharing, (although we export so much foodstuff all over the world it is literally impossible not to find a bag of rice or cornmeal stamped with Made in USA on it).  With one hand they stuff their mouths full of US made produce and curse us with the other.  I guess that without someone to hate those people would have to accept the blame for their own failures.  

And their leaders whip them up to hate us, the same way union leaders whip their members into voting for their man of choice.  And jhm, you are right - union leaders are always telling their members that they can get this or that for them.  Wrong - unions can only negotiate for those things and in that regard are very much like the dumbocrats - always promising something they may not be able to get a return on.

Let's see:  michbob - you're right.  My father is always telling me how desparate the depression was and how people worked so hard so thier children would never have to live like that, at subsistance levels.  And we have never seen a depression of that magnitude in our lifetimes, unless we're really old (lol).  

rockbilly - dang, how could I forget about Ross himself.  The only problem with Ross's thinking was that you can't run a government like a business - won't work that way.  Too bad, too.  He had some decent ideas.  

I think we will do better in Iraq than in Vietnam.  The Iraqi people will eventually govern themselves but there will still be some who will hate us forever.  I feel that if the majority of the Iraqis want a government and the minority doesn't, them let them fight it out for themselves - we just need to get them to the point where they have  some government and can handle their internal problems internally.

papajohn said: The way I see it, if the Second Amendment falls, the rest of them are as good as gone, too. And the way Kerry talks (out of the left side of his mouth) the Bill of Rights is in big trouble if Kerry gets elected. Goodbye America, Hello U.N. soldiers. Praise the Lord and Pass The Ammunition.  Absolutely right folks.  If kerry gets in their will be a push on for a 'Constitutional Covention', to use an old buzzword of the mario cuomo commicrats, which will mean an end to the 2nd Amendment with the remainder falling by the wayside through party interpretation.  Remember, the only real difference between tteh communist form of constituionality and the Constitution of the United States of Amewrican is that ours specifies the means by which we will obtain our ends (individual freedomes) - theirs only specified the ends and left the means (tyrrany and oppression) open.  Yep, either the Constitution will see a major focus of change under kerry or the nation goes to civil war to uphold what we already have.  

And, someone else said that the Iragi, like the Vietnamese, doesn't want to be free - I don't think it is that they don't want to be free, I don't believe they know how to be free and those who don't want them free are the ones causing the most trouble.  That in itself is cause enough to fight for their freedom.  If they have gotten this far as a suppressed peoples, imagine how much things will improve when they realize the benefits of freedom.

Oh yeah, one more thing - aren't ya'll really glad this campaign ain't a flippin' beauty contest.  It might be sort of like that Sandra Bullock movie - Miss Congeniality, with all the contestants wishing for world peace.  Ah well, as my grandpappy used to say, go wish in one hand and schmidt in the other and see which one fills up the fastest.  Just my 2 cents worth here.  Mikey.

[VSSF]

I'm a Union carpenter and while they're are some Idiots,I don't claim to be one.Like was said in the above post's our money goes to candidates that we don't support.Although the official word is,The carpenter's union's are nuetral in this election.Unlike the last one,I got ALOT of flack for my Bush stickers,and still am.But Kerry is definitely not getting mine or my Wifes vote.

[rockbilly]

Nuffs-a nuff............ain't going there any more.  One thing all of us can be thankful for is the right to choose and voice our opinions.

God Bless Amirica, but before anyone gets my guns "they will have to pry my cold, dead hands off them."

[palgeno]

First the UNIONS and now YASSER ARAFAT( along with the French) now support Kerry. NO THANKS!!!!!!!  pg

[VSSF]

Like I said The Carpenters Union this time isn't endorsing either one.I'm endorsing BUSH.

[Jim n Iowa]

I really don't know where you come from to put down labor as you so stated. The general labor force is well informed, and not a puppet led group as you imply. They will vote as a person or family as they choose.  I say get off our case and take care of your own issues, as they seem to be troubling you. Labor will vote with their own mind, thank you.
Jim

[Badnews Bob]

I don't think he was getting on about how individuals vote, but in how the union officals pick and choose were to spend the members money. But hey I work for the gubrment they don't want us to think at all.