Author Topic: What levels can 45/70 buffalo rifle be loaded to ? (Read 1654 times)

dogdoc1 · « **on:** October 11, 2004, 03:05:10 PM »

Where do these fall in strength? Are they as strong as the lever actions or stronger?

Mohawk · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:17:17 PM »

I'm pretty sure Buffalo Bore ammuntion states that their ammo can be used in them so they must be pretty strong to handle that stuff.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:37:09 PM »

Quote from: Mohawk

I'm pretty sure Buffalo Bore ammuntion states that their ammo can be used in them so they must be pretty strong to handle that stuff.

That is indeed their claim. They definately load some hot stuff, they call it their 45-70 Magnum loads, but it should be good at their price.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570

handirifle · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:56:47 PM »

NEF has stated many times the Handi/H&R's in SB2 frames can be safely loaded to Marlin lever action levels.

I pushed some pretty hot loads through my BC. I'll say this, your shoulder will more than likely quit before the gun. Especially with that steel buttplate.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2004, 04:52:24 PM »

Handi is right. Lee #2 shows a 1900 fps load and a mess of 1800 fps loads for bullets in the 400 to 405 jacketed as level II. With the much longer barrel of the BC, you might even get another 100 fps out of those loads. If the Handi will take more than that, I don't wanna know about it. We ain't got no elephants in Virginia.

Sourdough · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2004, 06:34:14 PM »

My son loads his 45-70 Handi to the Marlin 1895 loads. His 300 grain loads are pretty potant. His 400 grain loads equal my 338 in recoil, Not pleasent to shoot. But that is the load he carries because of the possiability of running into a Grizzly.

Joel · « **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2004, 08:27:20 PM »

I loaded my old NEF with 300 gr loads listed for The Ruger #1( I worked up slowly) which were around 2405 fps if I remember correctly. My NEF, while a handi rifle II, has the serial Prefix of NG while the new "high test" frames I believe start at NS. Anyway, pressures were still only around 40K C.U.P., and the rifle had no problems. Cases all Mic'd fine etc. Problem is, after 5 rounds I did. Having proved that the rifle was sturdier than my shoulder, I went back to more sensible numbers and stayed there. My rifle by the way has a Pachmyr pad, not the cheap thingee NEF sticks on them now. That was 13 years ago, and a lot of deer have fallen to those kinder/gentler loads(on my end anyway) since then.

missed_shot · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2004, 06:39:03 AM »

Heavy loads in a 45/70 using 405 gr bullets are not needed. At 1,300 fps, they will pass clean through most critters . I can shoot 3 inch groups at 200 yds and still have pass throughs. All you'll do is hurt your shoulder with the heavy stuff.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:18:55 AM »

Quote from: missed_shot

Heavy loads in a 45/70 using 405 gr bullets are not needed. At 1,300 fps, they will pass clean through most critters . I can shoot 3 inch groups at 200 yds and still have pass throughs. All you'll do is hurt your shoulder with the heavy stuff.

That may be true, but if you want the minimum acceptable 1500 ft/lbs energy for elk at 200yds, even the 405gr bullets lack that energy. The remington site shows barely enough energy for deer(1000ft/lbs), which if that is your chosen game, will suffice IF you can judge distance well enough to know how much hold over to allow considering the 405gr bullet zeroed at 100yds will drop 24" below POA at 200yds. To get a MPBR that is even close to being acceptable, and it's not IMO, you'd need to be 7" high at 100yds to hit 10" low at 200yds. The muzzleloader type rainbow tradjectory of big slow bullets just isn't acceptable for everyone's applications. For me, the recoil in a hunting situation isn't an issue and can be dealt with from the bench easily with some preparation. If the shooter is recoil sensitive, as in slight of stature or a young shooter, that's another matter.

http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/results.asp?cal=54

Mac11700 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:41:13 AM »

Stock design has a great to doo about how a heavy kicking load will hurt you...a simple change of recoil pad to a Limbsaver...and putting sometype of either gel pad or soft pad on the comb to eliminated the felt recoil on your face...will make it a real pleasure to shoot...I did this on my 1895GS...and I'm telling you guys...it really doesn't hurt anymore...and I'm not shooting anemic factory loads thru mine...Nosler's 300 grainers...2200-2300 fps....Cast Performance 405 grain WLNGC at 1800-1900 fps....

A-lot of the felt recoil from these light rifles is coming thru your face...as well as your shoulder...pad the stocks comb and get a good recoil pad......( I had a Pachmayer Decelorator on my 1895Ported GS...this Limbsaver works 10 X better)........ and you'll see how much difference it makes...

Mac

Clark · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2004, 03:37:20 PM »

Post edited for content

Mac11700 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2004, 07:35:55 PM »

Clark:

Quote

The chalanger was still not convinced with my test data, and the lesson is more something to do with human nature than guns.

Although I'm not your "chalanger" from the mentioned thread...but your data is certainly strewed...how is it you give so-much creedence to Quick Load,when it has been proven in several instances to be off by a consideral margin as to the pressures given from it

??

While I don't have the inclination to destroy a gun...nor try to build up to detonation levels... but if I wanted to verify my figures to prove myself correct for the world to see... then I would send off some samples to the folks who could do a lagitament and valid test to them...and then publish the results from them as verification...this might help you in your so-called testing,and would allow others to call and verify the data themselves should they choose to do so.........simply posting pictures of your fired cases doesn't mean a great deal to a-lot of people...unless they themselves are trying to vindicate some long held belief...and are trying to convince others they were correct all-along....

Quote

One explanation is that NEF does not know any better.

I think they "know" far more than you ever will....but I suspect you think you are far smater than them....and statements like that are meant to inflame or intice others to start posting all sorts of things I don't want to see posted here.....so guys...if it does...I'll lock this thread down real quick....and take it up with GBO...so play nice....I know I had to edit this reply a bunch of times..... :x

Mac

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2004, 11:03:34 PM »

As a general rule, I stay out of the ruger loads. I went there once or twice just for the abuse, but it isn't where I stayed.

My opinion is that if you're hunting where you can easily expect 200yd shots, then the 45-70 should stay in the closet and the '06/270/280/7mm-08/308 should be your companion that day. That's just my opinion tho. If you're really good at range estimation (or have a range finder), you're intimately familiar with the trajectory of your loads and your target isn't moving around much then I think the venerable one is more than adequate for 200yd shots.

Ian

lik2hunt · « **Reply #13 on:** October 15, 2004, 08:53:04 AM »

Alright Clark I am by no means an expert on this subject but I have seen you post this same data on another board and it seems like it created quite a big controversy there. So why are you posting it here now!!??
I tend to agree with Mac that it is just to flame us H&R fans and I feel my butt warming up now so I'll say........GOODbye!

Clark · « **Reply #14 on:** October 15, 2004, 11:08:25 AM »

Post edited for content

safetysheriff · « **Reply #15 on:** October 15, 2004, 03:04:00 PM »

Clark,

I can't help it, I guess. I took the bait! :grin:

When I saw this thread I knew I had to look at it, because I share much of your opinion about the Handi' in .45-70. It's more of a rifle than it gets credit for being....as are the old Trapdoor Springfields that we argued about on the NEF site.

Think about this, however: some can't hear about how to handle a .45-70 with MORE of the much slower powders to reduce recoil, etc.etc. I'm not talking about your experiments at that point, just talking about simple physics that only some will accept. If they can't understand or learn some of these simple things, which can be read about on other websites by professionals, then how will they ever relate to your findings?

Beause this is a rather folksy, family-type website you might find a Far more esoteric site where you may get a hearing; and you might not be opening a can of worms for those who don't know enough about what is being done.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing; :eek: and this is maybe not the place for such Extreme experiments. While I agree with some of what you do I think you'll get a better reception elsewhere.

In any event, I hope all is well with you. :wink:

SS'

lik2hunt · « **Reply #16 on:** October 15, 2004, 03:41:07 PM »

Quote

Just leave these people alone. The internet is easy to access, and they are everywhere.

Perhaps since this is the case maybe it would be best for some to move on and join with those who have chosen to excersise their internet privileges and are posting their opinions about the guns we love at other sites such as some that have already been frequented by these people. Such sites are readily available and have the initials AR and MBM (My Bowel Movement

) in them. You guys have fun.....I'm done on this one.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 15, 2004, 04:10:33 PM »

Ohhhhh Please.......here we go again.....

Quote

Think about this, however: some can't hear about how to handle a .45-70 with MORE of the much slower powders to reduce recoil, etc.etc. I'm not talking about your experiments at that point, just talking about simple physics that only some will accept. If they can't understand or learn some of these simple things, which can be read about on other websites by professionals, then how will they ever relate to your findings?

Who doesn't know about reduced loads for crying out loud...and why is it that anyone who shoots a trapdoor can't for the life of them figure out...that not everybody shoots reduced loads...this one has been hashed over about a million times...and still some don't get it...

Let me try one last time...since I do believe this is directed my way...IT"S A CHOICE...to shoot at safe and acceptable higher velocities.....note the words SAFE and Acceptable.....one can choose to throw logic out the window as some here has done...but when one makes assine statements such as Clark has...then it is no-longer an acceptable approach to proving a point...regardless of who they are...how many degrees they may hold...or how long they have been doing anything in the engineering field...

Quote

Beause this is a rather folksy, family-type website you might find a Far more esoteric site where you may get a hearing; and you might not be opening a can of worms for those who don't know enough about what is being done. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing; and this is maybe not the place for such Extreme experiments. While I agree with some of what you do I think you'll get a better reception elsewhere.

Well well...how do you like that slap in the face folks.....well ..ok...yea...this is a family oriented web site...probably the best on the web...and it got that way,by GBO management being open...honest...and holding themselves to a higher standard that the some from the old forums cannot stand...let alone abide by the simple rules of conduct put forth ...so if you want to go running back to the others sites...and spread your BS and misinformation ...by all means...go ahead...but ...I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut...they eat you for lunch...AGAIN..... just as they have in the past...anytime you post such crap...

oh...and one last thing...

Quote

and you might not be opening a can of worms for those who don't know enough about what is being done. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing;

I know exactly what's being done...probably more so than you think...and one doesn't need a degree from M.I.T. to figure it out...just some common sense...to distingious the difference between sanity and reason....

Mac

safetysheriff · « **Reply #18 on:** October 15, 2004, 06:34:12 PM »

Mac,

I thought previously, on another site, that we sat quite a bit on the same side of things. I think you're not understanding me. I didn't say anything about reduced loads......but rather posted about high density
loads using slower powders -- not the same thing. I don't agree with reduced loads in a cartridge that some will use at relatively long range to take an animals life. Reduced loads may or may not be accurate, as you know.

This is a rather basic, down-to-earth site with many of our postings nowhere near the edge of the envelope/'outside the box'. But why would you take that as a personal insult? I'm merely stating an opinion about the level we generally function at, in a posting directed to Clark. This is a mid-level site as I see it, with something like www.long-range.com being a college course in some respects.

How is it that a remark like "mbm" as in one of the posts is so tolerant to you and my comments directed to Clark are otherwise taken so personally?

I'll try to post something that is more on the leading edge side to show you where I'm coming from.

Take care,

SS'

Clark · « **Reply #19 on:** October 15, 2004, 08:41:14 PM »

I wonder, when someone posts a question about how much pressure a rifle is good for, how do I go about answering that I have analyzed the rifle, and validated with tests, and believe it is stronger than the brass. How does one present that, and not offend someone?

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #20 on:** October 16, 2004, 03:39:50 AM »

The oldtimers killed 50 and 60 buffalo at a session at ranges up to 500 yards with lead bullets and black powder in the .45-70.

We got no buffalo in Virginia; I ain't gonna shoot at nothing past 150 yards; and I don't wanna hear no crap about my loads being inadequate or inaccurate.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #21 on:** October 16, 2004, 03:51:22 AM »

, DJ, this ones for you!, :agree: ....<><.... :-D

safetysheriff · « **Reply #22 on:** October 16, 2004, 04:35:03 AM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

The oldtimers killed 50 and 60 buffalo at a session at ranges up to 500 yards with lead bullets and black powder in the .45-70.

and I don't wanna hear no crap about my loads being inadequate or inaccurate.

If it gets too hot then stay out of the kitchen.

SS'

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #23 on:** October 16, 2004, 04:41:41 AM »

I am not into reloading,tho I used to help my Dad who reloaded a lot. But for the life of me I can't figure out why an "engineer" would want to overload a 45-70 if he has to stop shooting for a year afterwards because the big bad recoil hurt him. Maybe I'm missing the whole point of reloading and pressures and such, but if I want a 416 Rigby I'll buy one. I won't try to turn my 22 into one.
Around here we have lots of "engineers". Some can use that title legitimatly because they work for the railroad. Others work for the sanitation dept., or building maintenance. :grin:

Graybeard · « **Reply #24 on:** October 16, 2004, 04:53:23 AM »

Quote

The point is, someone can calculate and do tests to determine the answer.
That person is me.
If you don't like the answer, you may not like me, but you should face your own bias, and know why you are the way you are.

No Clark that someone is NOT you. You did no destructive tests to see what the limits of the action or barrel were. You in fact did no pressure measurements at all. You GUESSTIMATED the pressures using a computer program that has been proven to not be very accurate on numerous occasions.

What you are posting here is totally unsafe and untested information.

At this point you have two options. Your choice as to which you select.

Option one. Drop it and continue to participate in the discussions without posting the unsafe data.

Option two. Be gone. Of your own volition or by stroke of the admin key I wield.

The choice is yours. Make it.

Note to Moderator. If he makes the wrong choice before I return lock the thread and leave his post so I'll know which decision was made. I'll handle it from there.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 16, 2004, 06:37:24 AM »

10-4 Bill...not a problem,,,

SS...I do apologize if I miss understood you and took your statements wrong... I am human...and just got my dander up a bit... Even though we had our differences...I had always thought we walked on the same side of the fence too :oops:

Again...I apologize....

Mac

safetysheriff · « **Reply #26 on:** October 16, 2004, 09:04:55 AM »

Mac,

I accept, and I am glad we are in harmony again. I enjoy this site, and look forward to it after work. It even gets disappointing when it's slow.

The very best to you, :wink:

SS'

gwhilikerz,

Nice handle!

Your point is well made, too. I don't believe in stretching calibers too much either. It can be done, but it takes some thought and usually involves even more care in bullet placement -- which we have to be patient enough to handle. That can be tough!

Take care,

SS'

lik2hunt · « **Reply #27 on:** October 16, 2004, 01:06:38 PM »

Please forgive my comments and references to the other forums and about those who are posting to this thread. They were out of line and I apologize also.

Clark · « **Reply #28 on:** October 16, 2004, 03:21:24 PM »

Lik2hunt,
What does MBM stand for?
TIA

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 17, 2004, 07:40:08 PM »

This thread is now locked for obvious reasons

Mac