Author Topic: No knockdown for the 45 70 (Read 3045 times)

Ditchdigger · « **on:** October 12, 2004, 04:04:06 PM »

I tempted fate this evening when I took the 4570 hog hunting in my 600 yd. range hunting place. The hog came out early,a Boar that would crowd 400 pds. and the closest I could get was about 160 yds. I had just zeroed the 300 gr Win. loads at 100yds with a red dot scope and was getting 3" groups. I held the dot at the top of his back and a little behind the shoulder,and touched it off. He was still in about a foot of water and I heard the smack of the bullet hit him. He ran about 40 yds. on the bank and started gushing blood in a 3' wide trail, and dissapeered in a willow thicket. I trailed him about 80 yds in the thicket,and decided this was very stupid (even for me). I met lik2hunt up there and he was ready to go look further for him, but I told him it was'nt worth it for someone to get hurt or killed looking for a wounded 400 pd. boar. I try to find him tomorrow and take some pictures if he's dead. Lik2hunt, thanks for the offer to help.Digger

Mohawk · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2004, 04:29:40 PM »

Sounds like a good hit, Ditch. Hogs are walking bullet traps anyway. I've had them take .338 Win. Mags and still run 100yds. A coach shotgun with 000 buck is a good hog tracking gun at night. Good luck tomorrow.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2004, 04:55:39 PM »

I usually hunt this area with my BAR in 7mag, or my 300 Wby. I knew this would probably happen the very 1st. day I did not carry them,and it did. I'll carry the BAR,or the 444 marlin,or the coach gun with buckshot to look for him tommorrow. Digger

lik2hunt · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2004, 02:17:27 AM »

Digger
Well I hope you find that monster while I'm at work........some of us still have to do that ya know :wink:

. Take some good pics and I'll help ya post 'em on here so everybody can see him. I don't figure he made it too much farther after you gave up on him and when you do find him he'll probably look a lot like a deflated baloon after all his guts have run out that half-dollar sized hole I'm sure he's got in him. :roll: Let us know how ya come out.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2004, 04:48:51 AM »

DD, I'd love to see those pictures and hear the results of the 45-70 on the pig. Also it would be interesting to see just how far he went after the hit and what damage the bullet did. I only hunted hogs once and loved it. A buddy and I hunted Texas with longbows and a .44 Mag S&W for a back-up. It was needed once also, the guy that was letting us hunt on his grandfather's peanut farm got a bit to close to a 300 pounder and he charged, my buddy put him down with one shot of a hard cast Keith design bullet. All we have for pig hunts here in the Northeast are canned hunts on private "game farms" and I'm not much for that style of hunting. I may however try one some day with my bow or ML when there is not much else doing. You can hunt these "private game preserves" in the spring when everything else is closed. During much of that time there is still snow on the ground and it looks interesting, guarenteed to get some meat out of it too, just have to save up some money and look for specials when their business is slow....<><.... :grin:

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2004, 04:31:29 PM »

Well I did'nt find the hog today,he either run out of blood,or quit bleeding. He went into one of the most horrific thickets I've seen in a long time and that was as far as I could go. I think I'm going in the gun room and mount the scope back on the 300 Wby., load some full throtle nitrous oxide 180 gr. B.T.'s and see how far they run with a 6" exit hole in them. I did find some new tracks today that are nearly 2 times as big as the one I shot though. MSP,while I've got these things located,jump on a plane and come down here and hunt and vist with Marv, Lik2hunt and I.
Sorry no pictures. Digger

MSP Ret · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2004, 02:48:22 AM »

, Sorry you didn't locate that 400 pounder DD and thanks for that great invite, would that I could. You guys have the same invitation to come to my camp in Maine and hunt anytime. Perhaps within the next couple of years we could each come to the others place to try the hunting. Besides coming to my camp, my buddy in Millinocket has a nice camp right on Ambejejus (SP?) Lake just a bit south of Mt Katadin. We can visit and hunt there also, but there are more moose and less deer around his area and Moose permits are difficult to draw. The coyote hunting is good though.
In one of Thoreau's books the author describes turning out of a stream and onto the lake at a point of land and describes it as the most beautiful place in the State of Maine, you guessed it, that point of land is right where my buddies camp is located!!! He has the book and passage right by the front slider so you can walk out onto the deck overlooking the lake (when the water is high it's almost over the lake!) and read it and look at the same thing Thoreau looked at many years ago, it has not changed. My buddy and I were State Police Academy classmates and each on the same job for 30 years or so and he is turning into a real Mainer. He is trapping this year. I bought him a .22 Mag Sportster as a gift for a close range coyote gun (30mm Millet Red Dot), his buddy from Millinocket liked it so much he bought one also and with a 30mm Millett Red Dot!!!. He was using his .35 Marlin 336 for coyotes before the .22 Mag and it worked well with 150 grain spitzers (he liked my Sportster so much and was giving and helping at his church so much at that time, he is a real dedicated christian guy who had a jail ministry for years while on the job as well as other time consuming works he did with gusto, at the time I had a bit more extra cash than he did and I thought he deserved the gun since he liked mine and had stated he was going to try to save up the money to buy one).
Anyway, there is hunting to be had and places to see, but I am afraid you guys may have to come up a couple of times, you really haven's enjoyed coyote hunting in Maine until youe get up when it's about -27* (thats below zero) and winds to 20 or 30 mph nad we drive down the Golden Road (private gravel road made by and for the logging companies but with public access allowed), stop every 1/2 mile or so, snowshoe about 1/4-1/2 mile into the woods and set upo and call them in, then move after 1/2 hour or so. Like they say it ain't the cold, it's the wind. Don't take a quick deep breath, your nose hairs freeze right up and it hurts!!! It don't get much better than this... :-D

Good luck to all this deer season and lets all look forward to many more in the future....<><.... :grin:

(P.S. got to run, don't have time to check for errors, will check and correct any typing & spelling errors when I return....)

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2004, 08:18:26 AM »

Man I hate to be accused of flaming or trying to start something but I must say this. That hog is just as dead with the 45-70 as he would have been with the 7mag, 300 weatherby, or 444. He is out there! He is dead! He needs to be found! Thickets are just the place a dying pig or deer will go. It is the hunter's duty to exhaust all possibilities before giving up on a wounded animal. Take the coach gun (or any gun you are comfortable with) and go thru that thicket until you either find the animal or see him hightailing it out the other side. Having bowhunted for many, many years I know that tracking is a basic requirement. It is something that should be taken seriously.
Quite frankly, I don't feel that a bigger exit wound from a more powerful caliber is the answer. The bullet has done it's job BEFORE it comes out the other side. A bigger exit just means the possibility of a better blood trail. But blood trail or not, we have to find the animal if at all possible. Wounded and unrecovered animals are the anti-hunting groups' greatest friend.
No, I am not perfect. I have lost game before. In fact I recovered a nice 9-pointer 2 weeks after I shot him. I kept coming back and searching until I stumbled over the carcass. It is a sickening feeling to lose an animal this way. Don't give up until you are sure!
OK, I've said my peace about this. Sorry if I offended anyone, but we as hunters must do all we can to "Do it right".

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2004, 09:36:33 AM »

The load was 300 gr. Win. ammo. and the distance was 160 yds. The red dot scope covers 5" at 100,and using that as reference the dot should cover 7 to 8" at 150 yds. ( which was my estimation) and the dot was 1/3 of the main body height(body 21 to 24" high) so I held the top edge of the dot about 1" above the back and shot. I figure the drop at 8 to 9" at 150 yds. with the 300 grs. at 1800 fps. so it should have been in mid or lower section of the hog. The first 2 shots at 100 will be perfect in alignment and centered in the dot 3" apart.
The hog took off at the shot,and after leaving the water and 40 yds. later he started leaving a heavy blood trail 3' wide for around 80 yds. and then slowed to drips. I followed the next 100 yds. by blood on high grass and limbs. This was hands and knees for the most part,then he entered a area of briars,vines, and small trees. The area was about 70 yds. by 70 yds. and I could find no exit. I think because of the behind the shoulder shot the hole pluged up and the bleeding stopped. And that's why I like the 5 or 6" exit hole.
What bothers me the most was that I had left the 280 barrel in the truck. I could have made a perfect neck shot with it and had him,even though I would have had to retreive him from the water. Digger

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 14, 2004, 10:22:21 AM »

The Win 300gr factory load should have ~1500lbs energy at 150yds, should do the trick, I would think...maybe the hit was a little less than perfect and a bit too far back, or it's fat plugged the hole so little blood was left or a combination of all. I've read lots of hog stories and they apparently can be tough critters to kill, even when hit good in the boiler room.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X4570H&cart=NDUtNzAgR292ZXJubWVudA==

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #10 on:** October 14, 2004, 10:36:18 AM »

I forgot to add that I looked for him about a hour that evening until it started getting dark,(Saw 5 water moccasins) went back the next morn. with the Bar 7mag, and looked for 3 more hours,and again that evening with my grandsons younger eyes.
These hogs come from a protected Federal refuge,and they grow quite large as a result.A small dog may have went into the thicket,but I dought it. The 300 pd. boars are afraid of nothing and will move all during the day looking for sows. He knew I was there but he thought he was 10' tall and bullet proof. I started to put another rd. through him,but only had 3 rds. with me. That would have left me with one rd. if after the 2nd. shot he decided to charge me. I was 40 yds. from the nearest tree that was large enough, so I did'nt shoot again. Digger

MSP Ret · « **Reply #11 on:** October 14, 2004, 10:37:43 AM »

DD, perhaps if the area is only 70x70 yards you and a couple or more of your buddies (lik2hunt and Marv perhaps) could push it back and forth until you located him? From my limited expierence with pigs I would want at least one more guy and go in in pairs a couple of yards apart, each of you watching out for yourself and your pardner. I know you said there were only small trees in the area, a good climbing tree was always nice to have within a few steps when we hunted them with our longbows. I wish I was closer to help....<><.... :grin:

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2004, 10:49:56 AM »

Digger I didn't mean to imply that you weren't doing what you could to find the hog. Sorry if it read that way. A wounded hog is dangerous for sure. (I hate pigs. My 4-H project years ago ate the tennis shoes right of my feet :eek: ). As long as you do all you can then you have done all you can.
MSP, I am a long bowyer also. What weight do you shoot? What broadhead? LOL I am full of questions when I meet a traditional archer :grin:

MSP Ret · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:21:52 PM »

gwhilikerz, I currently shoot a 68# @ 66" and a 62# @ 68". Both bows were made for me by my friend and bowyer George Deloge Jr. of Dracut, Mass. George and I made the Texas pig hunt together at "Uncle Marvins peanut farm" in what used to be Carpenters Gap. Texas. The truth be known, George invited me along, he was invited by a bow customer in Texas. Of course I jumped at the chance!!! George is a great guy with formal seminary training in his background. He is a lay minister who's calling is a ministry to tough inner city kids. I shoot homemade wooden arrows made of ramin wood (preferred), ash (a few left) and cedar. I use mostly plastic nocks but in reality prefer self nocks. I use extra thick Flemish twist bowstrings and dislike fastflight even though George's bows can use them. George has made me a great take down longbow that he has now and is doing the final shaping of the grip and arrow shelf for my requirements (his are truly custom bows, made from the ground up for the individual archer, woods, weight, length, colors, grip, etc...) The takedown is to allow me to put it in my Howard Hill design back quiver, mountainbike quietly a few miles down an old tote road away from the crowds, hide my bike in the woods and then assemble to bow and hunt. The bad part is George is so involved with his ministry now his bow making is taking a back seat. I use a Howard Hill design back quiver and sometimes a rawhide bow quiver, however the back quiver gets used most of the time. The quiver is interesting. Many years ago George had a customer that had an original and possibly, a personal Howard Hill quiver. The customer knew George loved that quiver and he was so happy with George's work he allowed George to carefully unlace the quiver and make a template of it. George then relaced the quiver with the original laces and returned it to the owner. George then made himself an exact duplicate of the quiver. George allowed me to use that old template and I made myself a copy of it also and still use it to this day!!!
I prefer Ribteck broadheads made in Australia but have Grizzly's that I have never hunted with but some friends, including George, have. I also have some Howard Hill broadheads but broke one on a pig during that Texas hunt (they sure are tough!!). I have kind of shied away from them since. Besides, the Ribtecks are so simple and effective it's scary. I also have a couple of more bows, up to 80# in weight from when I was young and foolish, a practice bow now, and like new actually. To think that in Old England the Archers used bows to 100# and more!!! Just the thought of pulling a bow like that scares and hurts me...what I really need now is a longbow of about 50-55# (:oops:) , that weight will still put a nice heavy arrow tipped with a sharp cut on contact broadhead right through a deer....<><.... :grin:

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2004, 03:29:15 PM »

MSP a 50-55 will certainly take even the largest deer. Of course I say that because that is what I shoot now. Years of shooting 70-73 zebra longbows finally took it's toll on my shoulders and elbows :grin:
Now I use 50, 53, 55#at 27" draw and 68" long all wood bows (cherry w/hickory backing). These were made for me by Hal Landers of Alabama. They are not as fast as bows with glass backing but I am very comfortable with the speed. I use mainly old bear razor heads or zwicky broadheads mounted on cedar shafts. I use the bear heads because my Dad and I bought a gross of these back around 1968 when we hunted together all the time. Now that Dad is gone I still use those heads I have left as a remembrance of him. I also use his old homemade shooting tab. For a quiver I have "engineered" a Kwikee quiver into a pretty good side quiver.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2004, 04:03:33 PM »

any of you guys ever shoot the Nugent broadheads? yes THAT Nugent. lol

www.tednugent.com

Mohawk · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2004, 04:20:53 PM »

I don't know how often a lot of you guys hunt big hogs but they rarely act like a deer with bullets, at least in my experience. The place where I hunt has a rancher that literally hunts daily and has seen lost animals with good hits with everything from .223-50cal. But by no means is that Win. 300gr. load a .300 Wby. My only suggestion is use a scope and ditch the red-dot.

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2004, 04:27:17 PM »

LOL mjb I haven't used them but after seeing what they do on nugent's show I plan on ordering some. Nugent is "enthusiastic" to say the least. But he must be a pretty nice guy. He was born on the same day in the same year as me :-D

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2004, 04:57:58 PM »

Mohawk; I was going to look for a shotgun scope today but run out of time. The red dot thing is neat,but it sure is not very accurate. I'll give the 45 70 another chance after I get it shooting right.I did'nt think it would knock down the hog with a behind the shoulder shot,but some of the 45 70 shooters say they will. I think the bullet did not expand at all,and it just punched a hole straight through,and the fat pluged the hole. I thought about taking my small dozer with the LGP tracks on it and go through the thicket,but figured the Corp of Engineers would nail me for it. This wk.end I'll loan Lik2hunt my 444 with some hot 265gr. loads and try again for 1 of the really big one's. Digger

Mohawk · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2004, 08:47:33 PM »

I think the .45-70 is a great caliber and will definately do the job. As far as knocking down a hog I think depends on th hog. I've knocked them over with a .280 but seen them run with a .338 Win. Mag, so who knows why they do that. But yes, I've had a hog's fat pretty much close up a .280 exit wound before, so I know what you mean. Boy, does that rancher have some serious bullet and caliber failure stories, though.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2004, 09:30:22 PM »

Digger.....

I'll second losing the red-dot site...can't stand the durn things...and at those ranges you are shooting them...you reallllllly need a good scope...to get by on the cheap...pick up a Leupold Vari X 1.....2x7x( 7 or 9) x33...these are great scopes for the money...give some of the best eye relief and are very very bright and clear and will stand up to some of the stoutest 45-70 loads you'll load.....and 1 other thing...go with a better bullet for those big hogs...something like a Nosler 300 grain Partition...Hawks Precision, Kodiak Bonded,Speer Uni-Core....something along those lines...or even some high quality cast bullets.....give old like2hunt a call and see if he'll show one of theose Cast Performance 405 grainers I sent him....for that big a hog...I would be sorely tempted to have a go at him with those loaded...you'll be able to end-to-end him and he shouldn't go far if anywhere :wink:

Good Luck...

Mac

dodd3 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2005, 04:55:38 AM »

ditchdigger sorry you lost the hog ,this is a set of tusks i got from a big bore
he was in exes of 400pounds got him with my .54 tryon muzzle loader the load was 120grns powder and a 412grn mini bullet he dropped clean after the shot .
bernie

FirstFreedom · « **Reply #22 on:** September 23, 2005, 06:48:17 AM »

What SE OK county you guys in?

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2005, 10:03:54 AM »

First Freedom,we are in Bryan county and hunting near the Tishimingo National Refuge,on Lake Texoma. Digger

missed_shot · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2005, 10:20:49 PM »

I've killed several hogs with my BC using 405 grain Rem bullets. They have the power to do the job. Your nose will find that hog after a few days. I'd be curious as to where it was hit.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #25 on:** September 24, 2005, 02:36:28 AM »

Quote from: missed_shot

Your nose will find that hog after a few days. I'd be curious as to where it was hit.

Check the date on the original post... this was last year. I was kinda hoping that he found the bones. That'd be interesting.

Ian

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #26 on:** September 24, 2005, 03:03:36 AM »

Hay,a friend found the boar a half a mile away from the place he was shot. He had some 2 1/2" cutters but was just a large skelaton when he found him. Digger

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #27 on:** September 24, 2005, 08:26:59 AM »

Did you get to see it? Did it look like you hit any bone with your shot?

Ian

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #28 on:** September 24, 2005, 11:29:07 AM »

I did'nt get up there to look at it since it was on private land,but the coyotes had scattered it. Digger

DirtyDan · « **Reply #29 on:** September 26, 2005, 08:33:15 AM »

I hung out in the local gun shop when I was in college...maybe too much. Years later I stopped in to say hello and the owner had a monster hog shoulder mounted on the wall. Almost 500 lb. I asked what artillery he used. He had shot the rascal with a .458 Win Mag-- 4 TIMES! He said it took him down each time, but he kept getting up. They are tough! I think each instance is different and it depends on how much adrenaline is flowing.