What does preserving your heritage mean to you?

[nohorse]

As many of you know from reading my recent posts I have no political agenda and I do not advocate any neo-secessionist movements or other special interest groups. Personally I would simply like to see a true accounting of history and an equitable respect for my ancestors and their contributions. I do not believe that anyone should rewrite history and it is time that this era in our nation’s history is reevaluated and the accurate facts presented.

 I have spent a couple of days searching the net and looking at various discussion boards and groups.  Interestingly many of the boards I reviewed that are associated with preserving Southern or Confederate heritage appear to have an agenda of their own.  I am not saying theirs or any other agenda is wrong simply because I personally do not subscribe to their particular views and opinions.  Then again for some one or a group to espouse the words “Heritage not Hate” I would prefer that they mean just that.  If any of you are aware of any discussion groups or websites with the purpose of actually obtaining the facts, presenting these facts and countering revisionist history simply for the self satisfaction of knowing that their history is accurately related I would be most interested in knowing about them.

In the interim it would be interesting to know what your personal beliefs are regarding the preservation of your heritage.

[El Confederado]

nohorse,
Check out the 37th Texas Cavalry site.

[nohorse]

Will do. Thanks El Confederado

[JBMauser]

To me the study of the Civil War is an exercise in understanding a period of our history that was as defining and as traumatic if not more than the revolution.  I do not think you can find any answers in contemporary web chatter because as I read history it seems that most current discussion is formed from spin and not fact or reality.  As I study history I come more to understand that the period and the pain had an almost inevitable course laid down from the very beginning.  I think in many ways the efforts to celebrate the Heritage (by the way I am an adopted southerner born in NJ first generation Irish American) are a means to deny the pain, suffering, cost, loss of so many fine men and the ruin of and countryside.  The valor, and kinship of men bound in a great struggle is the greatness of all men, all Americans but some must hold it separate as if to do so is to affirm something.  I sometimes go to a re-enactment but they always make me sad, the great loss.  Once the dike burst there was no holding back the inevitable course of events.  Some New England states were going to break from the Union and only stayed when the British signed a peace agreement with us at the end of the war of 1812.  It was not a new idea 25 years later when the South opted out.  Robert E Lee would have commanded the entire Union army if his beloved Virginia had not joined in the cessation.  But VA did and we have history to discuss and contemplate.  I find it interesting that many who say "Heritage not Hate" as it relates to the stars and bars would not recognize the confederate flag if they saw it.  I know that there were something like 8 recognized flags but the one people hoist is the one that was designed to be seen to rally to in the cloud of battle and the smoke of the powder.  The flag that North Carolina took as it’s state flag is a close copy of the flag that represented the CSA  It always seemed strange to me that the real deal does not matter, the battle flag gets all the attention. Heritage or History? Still learning, JBMauser

[dlemaster]

Being from the North and raised and taught in school to have a Northern mentality, and then marrying a Southerner, I've have had the opportunity to see both sides.
Most Southerners I know celebrate their heritage not to "deny the pain, suffering, cost, loss of so many fine men and the ruin of the countryside" but to embrace it. To them to forget means that all the loss, suffering ect. was in vain. To tell a Southerner to forget the war is like telling them to forget a lost loved one. They are extremely proud of their heritage ALL of it, its just that the period from 1861-65 was so traumatic for them from the richest plantation owner to the lowest share cropper, that they have a shared sense of loss that endures. It is embedded in their culture, its who they are, some are more sensitive to it than others. That is just human nature.
I feel the South should be allowed to keep and celebrate their heritage the same as African-Americans, Italians, Irish, or any other group, are encouraged to find and celebrate their heritage.
My paternal ancestors were French, Scotch, and Irish. The French part actually joined the British and fought against the French during the French & Indian War. Its been interesting to find out the reasons for that.
Regards, Dave

[nohorse]

JBMauser:

“To me the study of the Civil War is an exercise in understanding a period of our history that was as defining and as traumatic if not more than the revolution.”

I agree that indeed the great insurrection was as defining as the original revolution and when you consider the amount of lives sacrificed and the widespread destruction there is no doubt that it was also much more traumatic.  

“I do not think you can find any answers in contemporary web chatter because as I read history it seems that most current discussion is formed from spin and not fact or reality.”

Excellent point. I too have found that in many instances the “chatter’ is based upon personal opinion not fact.  Although I have no problems with person’s expressing their opinions, I often express my own, however in some instances these opinions or personal beliefs are presented as historical fact and that simply contributes to wealth of misinformation and confusion that already exists.  Regardless of how much we may want to believe we must be confronted by and accept the truth of the matter.

“As I study history I come more to understand that the period and the pain had an almost inevitable course laid down from the very beginning. I think in many ways the efforts to celebrate the Heritage (by the way I am an adopted southerner born in NJ first generation Irish American) are a means to deny the pain, suffering, cost, loss of so many fine men and the ruin of and countryside. The valor, and kinship of men bound in a great struggle is the greatness of all men, all Americans but some must hold it separate as if to do so is to affirm something.”

I understand this better in this format:
“As I study history I come more to understand that the period and the pain had an almost inevitable course laid down from the very beginning….. Once the dike burst there was no holding back the inevitable course of events. Some New England states were going to break from the Union and only stayed when the British signed a peace agreement with us at the end of the war of 1812. It was not a new idea 25 years later when the South opted out.”

Another good point; There was a collective series of various events that ultimately resulted in open rebellion.  There were opportunities along the way that could have changed the course of these events that were either ignored or regretfully recognized in hind sight.  Regardless, as you aptly stated, once the dike burst there was no turning back.    

As you point out the idea of secession was not new and obviously thoroughly considered by our founding fathers in the first rebellion. Also consider there were still revolutionary war veterans alive that fully realized the basis and reasoning for this and subsequent actions.  The general populace was not duped either. Consider that each state convened to determine whether or not they would adopt ordinances of secession. Once that was agreed upon it went to the people for the final determination by a referendum vote.  This involved much debate and controversy and the states entered into the Confederacy understanding exactly what they were doing, the reasons why they were doing it, and the potential repercussions from their actions [I know they realized this could eventually result in open war; but I personally do not believe they could even start to comprehend the devastating effects this war would bring upon their people and their lands].

“I think in many ways the efforts to celebrate the Heritage (by the way I am an adopted southerner born in NJ first generation Irish American) are a means to deny the pain, suffering, cost, loss of so many fine men and the ruin of and countryside.”

I personally do not believe that the celebration of this Southern Heritage is an effort to deny anything. In fact I see it as a method to affirm those things that are true, preserve them and pass them along to future generations. If I strive for anything in this regard it is for a universal unbiased acceptance of this heritage with equal standing amongst the other ethnic groups that comprise this country.  

“The valor, and kinship of men bound in a great struggle is the greatness of all men, all Americans but some must hold it separate as if to do so is to affirm something.”

Interesting statement, please elaborate.

“Robert E Lee would have commanded the entire Union army if his beloved Virginia had not joined in the cessation.”

Many do not realize Lee’s loyalty to God, Family and his State and just how important that was [and is]. Consider that the Lee family had lived in Virginia for six generations and had an active role in the defense of the colonies and the establishment of the nation.  Robert E. Lee served as an army officer in the U.S. Army for 32 years which included his distinguished service in the Mexican War and the arrest of John Brown at Harper’s Ferry. His wife, Mary Custis was George Washington’s foster great-granddaughter.  It’s difficult to get more “American” than that! Although opposed to slavery and secession he still sided with his native Virginia when the choice was forced upon him.  
Many today may ask why and what really prompted Lee to side against the union he so admirably and loyally served? Lee explained it himself in a letter to his sister drafted April 20, 1861 from his home in Arlington. The letter humbly states:
“With all my devotion to the Union, and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relative, my children, my home.   I have, therefore, resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State (with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed) I hope I may never be called upon to draw my sword.  
I know you will blame me, but you must think as kindly as you can, and believe that I have endeavored to do what I thought right.”  

“I find it interesting that many who say "Heritage not Hate" as it relates to the stars and bars would not recognize the confederate flag if they saw it. I know that there were something like 8 recognized flags but the one people hoist is the one that was designed to be seen to rally to in the cloud of battle and the smoke of the powder. The flag that North Carolina took as it’s state flag is a close copy of the flag that represented the CSA It always seemed strange to me that the real deal does not matter, the battle flag gets all the attention.”

You are correct in that many of the misinformed have not spent the time to investigate and learn about the Confederacy and its symbols. As such the battle flag regretfully suffers the brunt of misuse and abuse by a host of special interest groups.

[nohorse]

dlemaster:
“Being from the North and raised and taught in school to have a Northern mentality, and then marrying a Southerner, I've have had the opportunity to see both sides. “

Out of curiosity, what is the Northern mentality? I would be very interested in reading your opinion.

”Most Southerners I know celebrate their heritage not to "deny the pain, suffering, cost, loss of so many fine men and the ruin of the countryside" but to embrace it. To them to forget means that all the loss, suffering ect. was in vain. To tell a Southerner to forget the war is like telling them to forget a lost loved one. They are extremely proud of their heritage ALL of it, its just that the period from 1861-65 was so traumatic for them from the richest plantation owner to the lowest share cropper, that they have a shared sense of loss that endures. It is embedded in their culture, its who they are, some are more sensitive to it than others. That is just human nature. “

Thank you. I appreciate your perspective.

”I feel the South should be allowed to keep and celebrate their heritage the same as African-Americans, Italians, Irish, or any other group, are encouraged to find and celebrate their heritage. “

I agree. My point exactly.

My paternal ancestors were French, Scotch, and Irish. The French part actually joined the British and fought against the French during the French & Indian War. Its been interesting to find out the reasons for that.

I realize it is an entirely different topic but I would also be interested in knowing why your French ancestor sided with the British.

[dlemaster]

nohorse
What I call a Northern mentality is that, especially in schools, that I was taught that the war was all about slavery and that made the Souths rebellion something bad. Those evil old plantation owners just wanted to keep their slaves. Also Abraham Lincoln did everything he could to avoid war and the South forced him into it. The North was in the right and the South was wrong. The North had a sense of morality that compelled them to save the slaves.
Does that make sense?
I know I was left with a feeling that the majority of people living in the South at that time were slave holders who didn't want to do their own work.
In other words to look at the war strictly from the Northern viewpoint.

My French ancestors were under some kind of religious pressure. They were forced to flee France. Some came to America and settled on the Frontier.
When the war broke out they joined the British and fought the French and Indians.
A couple of them received land grants along the Monongahela River in Pennsylvania for their services.

Regards, Dave

[nohorse]

dlemaster:

"Does that make sense?"

Yes it does and thanks. And thanks for the insight into the French and Brittish, that's also very interesting.

[williamlayton]

Heritage and culture are simply learned behavior patterns. As such they can be trained and changed, IF'N your amind too.
Blessings

[nohorse]

williamlayton

You are generally correct about culture; it can be changed or even eliminated.  Many prominent ancient cultures no longer exist.  However, I am not convinced this is a good thing.  The facts of history and the values that comprise heritage may also be falsified resulting in a tragic loss and the evolution of a culture and society built upon lies and forgeries. How can a society or a culture built upon such a foundation stand?  So, I offer the following opinion:

We live in a time where Confederate symbols and history are being completely obliterated.  Where history is being rewritten and our traditional values are being trashed and ignored. Personally, I do not believe there is any more room for compromise. Compromise means more will be lost and forgotten. If learned behavior patterns mean we must willingly subject ourselves to these circumstances and turn our backs upon the facts of history because they are not currently politically correct then I am not amind to change.  I believe that the preservation of history, heritage and our various ethnic backgrounds [cultures] are not only worthy of preservation and respect, they are also worthy of the struggle required to retain them.

[williamlayton]

There are many kinds of traditional values--in every culture--which are based on unsound thought and immoral behavior. I think, just me thinking, Values and heritages need to be examined in the light of the word ( as ol Paul said ) and those which do not conform need to be discarded.
I am not standing in judgement of any culture, I will let those individuals examine themselves under the scrutiny of the Lord and the word. The Lord is not quick to judge and he certainly is willing that all change their minds. He will certainly be honest with those that choose to seek his counseling.
Blessings

[nohorse]

williamlayton:

I am unsure of your denomination but since you quote Paul I assume that you are also Christian. As discussed before in other topics on this forum many of the traditional values we seek to preserve are those that have arisen from and are based upon our Christian faith. Thanks for your comment.

[JBMauser]

williamlayton


We live in a time where Confederate symbols and history are being completely obliterated.  Where history is being rewritten and our traditional values are being trashed and ignored. Personally, I do not believe there is any more room for compromise. Compromise means more will be lost and forgotten. If learned behavior patterns mean we must willingly subject ourselves to these circumstances and turn our backs upon the facts of history because they are not currently politically correct then I am not amind to change.  I believe that the preservation of history, heritage and our various ethnic backgrounds [cultures] are not only worthy of preservation and respect, they are also worthy of the struggle required to retain them.

I think that the big problem is that history is taught without a world view at the time.  Everything is considered, judged and measured with the teacher's assistance against today's world view.  People were different then as they were in other periods.  They thought differently and saw the world differently. (Culture as stated above) They did not share today's everyman's opinion on things.  Heck we don't hold the same world views today.  Look at what people think is important in the current election.  Dates, events, battles are viewed as wins and losses only.    I to was taught in my early years with the "Northern view"  but I was taught in a Catholic school and I knew someting about the text smelled.  I was not old enought to know what it was but I knew the book could not be right.  I knew the South was the "Bible Belt"  and I knew they were not Catholic and I figured that if they all read the same book and were "God fearing Christians" they could not be "bad" but I could not figure out how they got to be the enemy, the rebels... and no, I had no knowledge of the popularity of the Catholic Church in the South at the time!!  I will say that my analysis was my own and not shared, I have always been a questioning pain in the a@@.

[williamlayton]

Paul said that questioning/examining was not a bad thing too do. Seems like only those not willing to change-afraid to change-afraid of being wrong-not willing too hear a word from our Lord, ect, ect to adnausium-are the ones who get left behind. That is a sad and dangerous position, as one said " I been a Methodist (Baptist, Catholic, you choose) my whole life, so have my parents and grandparent, I am not about to become a Christian now.
I must say, in deference to some thoughts, being a Republican does not make you a Christian. I will also take the stance that many-well, at least some-Democratic platforms that conform to the word more than the Republicans would give credit or agree with.
Blessings

[El Confederado]

Y'all, this is one hell of a topic and I think I will toss my two cents into it.Preserving our history, heritage or culture and what is is to me, well that is simple. It means form our forefathers to be judged by what they did and not what some yankee thinks was ment by what they did, or judged by what they wrote, not what some liberal judge thinks they ment. I think our flages need to be left alone, if ya dont like them , well then dont look, it is that simple, grow up.Bottom line, our forefathers did what they did because they felt in their hearts they were in the right and therefore, I will not soil their memory with neo-history crap about what they did was wrong. I for one will defend my confederate past, our flag, our views and our culture, to the end and then some. In the words of General Jackson, " when they come, show them the bayonet".Never surrender boys.

[Savorino]

El Confederado posted:
                   "and not what some yankee thinks"
                   "holy cause"
Glad to know your the Moderator in this open discussion!
What poses here as heritage seems to be someting else.

[williamlayton]

YUP!
Blessings

[nohorse]

Savorino: You said among other things “What poses here as heritage seems to be someting else.” To which williamlayton agreed by saying “YUP!”

I am not defending El Confederado or his beliefs. He and I may not always agree but his personal opinion is not a reflection of every participant’s personal convictions. As you mentioned he is the moderator: As such he did not edit any posts nor did he delete any posts. He simply stated his personal opinion just as you did. As such he appeared not so much as a moderator but as a fellow participant in this online conversation. Your statement “What poses here as heritage seems to be someting (sic) else” implies that this entire thread is a misrepresentation and that is simply untrue. If this was a personal affront to El Confederado then I believe that he is quite capable of defending himself. I personally would like to know exactly what you meant.

[williamlayton]

Well, lets see here. I am speakingk for myownself here, My post says that I think what EL is posing as heritage is actually something else, by his own post.
Nobody even indicated he did't/doesn't have the right to say it, believe it, preach it, print it or broadcast it. He is pretty plain about his thoughts and beliefs. I disagree with him on most of it an give him what-fer sumtimes, kinda like ya expect when you venture into deep waters.
Blessings

[crashresidue]

That has got to be one of the most "undeciferable" posts I've ever seen,  Want to try again?

If it's wrong - call it "Wrong", if it's bad then bro - call it - but DON"T smoke it and try to pull it off.

cr

[williamlayton]

What point is not understandable, and I am serious. I am pretty capable of being misunderstood, writing things that do not come out clear and I will try and clarify if you will.
Blessings

[williamlayton]

Well I am going to go out into REAL deep water here. Take your best shots, but  think em thru.
The discussion here, and I am not sure how this happened, evolved into some amount of personalizing. That is an incorrect way to approach the debate. Thoughts are personal, I think we would all agree, however, disagreements should not be personalized.
The original discussion was on heritage, which quickly expanded to culture and traditions. These are not the same things folks. They can contain some of the same elements but they are not the same horse.
Now this is what I think, me think, and El should correct me if I am wrong.
What EL has proposed, for all to hear, and for a long time now, is a return to the Civil War and continue the fight. Never ever give it up.
I do not know what this has to do with heritage--tradition maybe, but not heritage.
Folks, when you talk about Yankees this and yankees that, and glorify the old South TRADITIONS, what you are doing is looking at history thru another set of rose colored glasses. Those days were not, in my opinion, all that glorious and great. It was a hard scrabble existence for ALL except the landed gentry. Kinda takes you back to England and Europe don't it, and it should, because that is the kind of traditions and culture the OLD SOUTH was built on. The heritage, and this is new heritage, given only recently by the founding fathers, we are considering here is a radical heritage, dare I say the word LIBERAL.
Boys, the Civil war was not fought over heritage. The Civil war was fought over traditions and culture.
Now, if you want to continue this fight, secede again, and start it all over, and this is what, I think, EL would like to do, then my suggestions are two fold. Think thru States rights as applied to the South, and what they wanted, and make sure this is what you really want. Also consider if you really think it would survive. I think it would fold quicker than a house of cards in a hurricane.
Blessings

[nohorse]

OK. All points considered, since I started this post I suggest we do a check and adjust and re-start.  Perhaps a thread regarding “would you like to re-live it” is in order?  

Personally I regard this as more of a discussion rather than a debate and would like for the topic to continue to be approached with that perspective.  

Heritage as well as culture and tradition [depending upon your personal definition of them] should remain as open and discussable topics.  I personally believe and agree that they all do “contain some of the same elements” [as was previously mentioned] and are so entwined that they are not easily dissected making it most difficult to objectively discuss their individual merits in this context.

As stated in the initial posting I still solicit your personal beliefs and opinions regarding what would be better called historical preservation, I suppose.  This could then include the various aspects that to some were so divisive such as heritage, culture and tradition as well as glorifications of those things each of us personally deems to be important and of value.

With that being said, perhaps our moderator could rename this post “what does historical preservation mean to you?” This broad and more generic approach should allow for open congenial discussion without as much tendency toward personal inflection and attack.

Please…continue the discussion and thanks for the previous contributions.

[El Confederado]

WOW,
It is soo nice to see all that I have to do is give a point of view and I rattle the hornets nest.It is also soo funny to how as long as you stay in the background or as long as you dont let unreconstructed southern pride come out onto the post, your never looked at , but oh God, once you spout one bit of southern pride or anti Federal or  anti revisionist point of view, your branded as some sort of radical. Oh well, puts me in good company with men like Jefferson, Austin, Jackson, Davis and the list goes on . So keep on shootin boys, I like the company.

[williamlayton]

So fer I ahve not seen any hornets, just folks tryin to see other views.
El- Glad ya showed up. been kinda wonderin where you been hidin that ol head of yours. You been more scarse than hens teeth.
Blessings

[El Confederado]

williamlayton,
Oh pard I have been busy playin soldier for one last time in the desert , anyhow had a bad run of luck with a few family members passin over to the otherside, but hey, they are in a better place, so with all that behind I should be around more.

[williamlayton]

Blessings to all of you in this time of sorrow.
Blessings

[El Confederado]

Williamlayton,
Thank you for the kind words, they are taken to heart.

[Can Chaser Kate]

Since I am my Family's Genealogist, and keep the Family's Records. Traditions and Stories Alive, it means to me Passing this Legacy of Greatness (Regardless of North or South), on to the Future.