Small-bore recommendations please

[RobbW]

Hi,

My name is Robb and I'm looking for recommendations for a good-quality smallbore Silhouette rifle.

I live in MA where I shoot NRA Master class in Open Outdoor Airgun Silhouette and AAA class in Sporter Outdoor Airgun Silhouette.  I'd like to expand into shooting rimfire Silhouette as well--and get some decent equipment that I won't have to upgrade later.

I believe there is Hunter and Target class in rimfire Silhouette, right?  I'd like to shoot with a more Target-oriented stock.

I've been looking at Cooper, Anschutz, Volquartzen and Clark Custom rifles, but I don't really understand the differences between each platform.  What  do you recommend?

Do you use semi-auto or bolt action?

Are synthetic stocks like McMillan the most resistant to weather-induced POI shifts?

What power scopes work best at rimfire distances?

With airguns, I shoot with optics ranging from apertures for basement winter practice to a Leupold Competition 35X on my Open Class rifle.  Is there any particular magnification best suited to rimfire Silhouette?

Sorry for the long first post.  I'm just rying to give you as much information and I think will be helpful.  Thanks for any insights you may have.

Robb

[40x40]

Hi Robb,
Welcome!
I'm also new to SB Silhouette, and also still shoot airgun silhouette and FT.  I would recommend just getting the best.  Check CHunter's website for the Anschutz models most are using.
http://cc.usu.edu/~chunter/shooting.htm
Here are other sites with lots of information.
http://members.cox.net/riflesilhouette/
http://www.sunnyvalegunclub.com/SportShooting/Silhouette.html
If you need to see first hand what people are shooting just go to a match. You are bound to find one in your area.
http://www.tsra.com/NRA_Sub.htm

Good luck,
Leo

[dwl]

BillW;

Almost everyone out here shoots Anschutz in both Hunter and Standard class small bore.  The Model 1712 for Hunter and model 5418 for Standard.  Lots of shooters shoot their Hunter in both classes (allowed).  

Many of the more experienced shooters (loonies?) have tried the Kimbers but most have gone back to Anschutz.  I watched one shooter have repeated failures to extract at a match.  Then again, I know another shooter who hasn't had any problems with hers but hers was reworked by someone outside of Kimber.  CHunter knows more details about the Kimbers than I do.

I'm still fairly new and am shooting a CZ452 Silhouette at the recommendation of everyone I talked to.  I've had to extend the butt and adjust the trigger.  It still needs some weight in the forearm but it is probably the best low-cost gun for beginners like me.

Given that you are shooting Master level you may want to go straight to the Anschutz to get the quality and consistency that you are used to.

DWL

[chunter]

Hi,

My name is Robb and I'm looking for recommendations for a good-quality smallbore Silhouette rifle.

I live in MA where I shoot NRA Master class in Open Outdoor Airgun Silhouette and AAA class in Sporter Outdoor Airgun Silhouette.  I'd like to expand into shooting rimfire Silhouette as well--and get some decent equipment that I won't have to upgrade later.

I believe there is Hunter and Target class in rimfire Silhouette, right?  I'd like to shoot with a more Target-oriented stock.

I've been looking at Cooper, Anschutz, Volquartzen and Clark Custom rifles, but I don't really understand the differences between each platform.  What  do you recommend?

Do you use semi-auto or bolt action?

Are synthetic stocks like McMillan the most resistant to weather-induced POI shifts?

What power scopes work best at rimfire distances?

With airguns, I shoot with optics ranging from apertures for basement winter practice to a Leupold Competition 35X on my Open Class rifle.  Is there any particular magnification best suited to rimfire Silhouette?

Sorry for the long first post.  I'm just rying to give you as much information and I think will be helpful.  Thanks for any insights you may have.

Robb

Robb,

Depending on what class you want to shoot in, most guns that are shaped like a 'target' gun can only be used in the standard/smallbore class. The hunter gun can be used in both classes. Most silhouette matches are made up of a round with the hunter gun and one with the standard gun.

I would guess that there are probably very few people who only shoot the standard gun, and not the hunter gun.  Here are some basic specs: on the differences of the two guns
http://members.cox.net/riflesilhouette/RifleRules.htm

As far as what rifle to buy,  it depends on your budget and your preference on the feel of the rifle. As far as a hunter gun goes,  I would recommend an Anschutz 1700 series, a Cooper 36FWT/57, a Sako Finnfire (may need a different barrel to make gun balance better), Remington 541S, maybe a Kimber HS. You also have a whole line of semi-autos that you may look into. However, most people have a hard time with follow through when shooting an automatic, due to the weird recoil. I would dare say that 90% of all rifles on the line are bolt actions.  

As far as production standard/smallbore guns…the Anschutz 54.18MSR seems to be the top dog. In fact I don’t know of many other guns that are considered standard guns that are not based off a Anschutz action, there are a few, but the advantage is the wonderful 2 stage trigger that comes on them.

You also have the option to build a rifle that will fit your needs better.  The new trend when building a hunter gun is to take your favorite action/barrel and place them into Nesika Bay / Brown precision hunter silhouette stocks.  They are contoured for off-hand shooting and can be very comfortable. However, when you start building a rifle you will find that you can get into the rifle for a serious amount of money. The key to building a hunter gun is to make sure it keeps to the spirit of rules. Meaning it needs to look like a hunter gun, if it has a pistol grip or looks like a 54.18 stock or a varmint stock/gun you will probably get called on it.

As far as what stock type to get (wood/synthetic) it is personal preference.  There are a lot of both on the firing line. I personally like the synthetic stock because it is lighter and allows me to be more flexible as to what type of scope and mounts I put on it, not to mention less warping problems due to climate conditions.  Some people like the feel of the wood, and think the synthetics are ugly…all depends on what you like.

Scope magnification is another personal thing.  I can tell you that a lot of guys/gals have 6.5-20x power scopes, however, there are quite a few guys that like fix 24x, all the way up to over 40x.  Some people won’t shoot anything over a 16x.  It is something that you will need to decide on. The same goes for the reticle in the scope, some people like target dots, some like hollow circles, some like fine crosshairs, some like thick ones.  A lot of people shoot with target dots, but if you want to start a long thread just ask them what size is better. It all depends on the shooter.

40x40 has given you some sites that should be able to answer some more of your questions…..

Remember most of what you have asked all comes down to personal preference.  What one guy likes, is considered horrible by another.

Good luck,  keep us posted on what you decide to do.

C Hunter

[RobbW]

Check CHunter's website for the Anschutz models most are using.
http://cc.usu.edu/~chunter/shooting.htm

Thanks for the warm welcome and the links.  I just read them all and have a much better feel for the "lay of the land."

The CHunter site features an Anschutz 1712.  I've read about a 1710 elsewhere.  Is this an earlier version of teh same hunter-class gun?

Would it be possible, or even desirable, to purchase a 1712 to shoot Hunter Class, then replace the hunter-style stock with a Model 54 Target style stock for Silhouette Class?  That way the action, scope and settings could remain consistent for both classes, but the stock could be dedicated to each class.

Thanks again for the help.

[RobbW]

BillW;

Almost everyone out here shoots Anschutz in both Hunter and Standard class small bore.  The Model 1712 for Hunter and model 5418 for Standard.  Lots of shooters shoot their Hunter in both classes (allowed).  

Thanks especially for the warning about Kimber.  It's amazing that the Anschutz is so dominant.  That speaks volumes about it's ability to perform.  I'll probably end up getting one or the other.  I have an Anschutz LG380 that I sometimes use for air rifle silhouette.  It is a very good shooter.

I was hoping to end up with something a bit more funkey looking like the VQ with the snake flutes, but if Anschutz is the solid performer--at the end of the day my own improvement is what it's all about.

[RobbW]

Thanks very much.

I would guess that there are probably very few people who only shoot the standard gun, and not the hunter gun.  

Do they swap stocks, or just shoot standard with the disadvantage of a hunter stock and 2lb trigger?

As far as what rifle to buy,  it depends on your budget and your preference on the feel of the rifle. As far as a hunter gun goes,  I would recommend an Anschutz 1700 series, a Cooper 36FWT/57, a Sako Finnfire (may need a different barrel to make gun balance better), Remington 541S, maybe a Kimber HS.

I found the Cooper57, but not a 36FWT (don't know what the letters stand for).  Is that the Classic .22 rimfire with a special stock on it?  I like the looks of that gun.  The Anschutz looks nearly identical to my airgun so emotionally it feels like I'd be purchasing the same thing--but it's hard to get around the performance factor and I'm leaning towards the Anschutz.

The pics of the Sako Finnfire looks nice.  So does the Range.  I assume this is a step down from Anschutz quality?

You also have a whole line of semi-autos that you may look into. However, most people have a hard time with follow through when shooting an automatic, due to the weird recoil. I would dare say that 90% of all rifles on the line are bolt actions.  

I'll try to shoot both a bolt action and semi-auto.  I may have an advantage because I shoot a lot of spring-piston air rifle which have tough recoil and harmonics to overcome.  They are great for teaching discipline.  If I can handle the weird semi-auto recoil, I'll more carefully consider the VQ, if not then the Anschutz is looking better.

I agree with you the the synthetic has a performance edge in changing weather conditions.  Personally I like wood, but when I miss I want to know it was me and not the equipment.  

If more magnification on a scope is not a disadvantage, I prefer 32x or 35x.  I like to be able to aim at particluar spots (imperfections) on the targets.

I currently shoot with a Leupold Comp. 35x.  I designed a reticle with a 1/4 MOA center dot and 3/8 MOA windage dots a 2 and 4 MOA (no over under dots since I click for distance want to keep the sight picture clear).

I'll consider a hollow circle, though.  That may be even better if they can get it small enough to allow me to aim at a particular part of the animal.

Thanks again for all the good advice and the link.  I appreciate being able to talk this through before plunking down money.

[scorlett]

I have owned (still do actually) exactly 4 smallbore rifles. You probably know my air rifle story. A while after shooting air rifle silhouette, I asked about a used .22. The next month I lucked into a Walther KKMS (single shot standard rifle). I shot that rifle for a quite a while. When I was at a match and thought I wanted to shoot hunter class, I just borrowed a friend’s rifle. I didn't really have an interest in the little light weight wavy things with the super heavy (2lb) triggers.

Sometime later, I ended up with a Kimber HS as a hunter. Sent it back to Kimber and they fixed a feeding problem. With the exception of cold barrel flyers, it shoots very well, and has a great feel and balance. But in a big match with lots of shooters and relays (lots of time between each animal), the cold barrel thing got frustrating. I wasn't sure if it was me or the rifle (mostly me, I'm sure). I shot it pretty well the first year I had it. Learned a lot.

I always wanted a 54:18MSR, so early this year I picked up a really nice one in the factory 1808 stock. Incredible lock time and trigger, a great rifle. (I don't like the stock especially. My hands not big enought to split finger it like I do...)

I got to shoot a 1712 in a match in Ireland this summer (during the time I was frustrated with my Kimber HS). Shot a seemingly easy 34/40 for my 3rd master score in hunter. The rifle seemed very easy to hold and follow through, and incredibly accurate.

Last month I bought a new 1712! I think it has improved my overall shooting as much as anything I've done. There's something about the trigger and shot cycle that seems so smooth. The rifle definitely seems less "hold sensitive" than my Kimber HS (long 24" barrel maybe). I like it a lot, even though the darn cheek piece (even on the monte carlo stock) is too low. But with super low rings I've almost gotten used to it.

I'll probably shoot it in both classes quite a bit. After I re-stock my 54:18, I expect I'll go back to alternating. Shooting one rifle is a good thing, but I do enjoy the difference between the two. (I can't shoot well enough to be with the big boys anyway!)

So. Go buy a 1712. (Probably with the fiberglass stock so you can build up the cheek piece 3/8" or so and paint it. I don't have the heart to do that to my pretty factory walnut job.) The two pound trigger isn't a handicap. Shoot it a lot, in both classes. It will teach you a lot.  Then if you want to play with a standard rifle, you can take your time and find one later.

You'll shoot it much better because of the experience with the 1712!

[RobbW]

I appreciate the advice.  

Like you I bet I end up with a small posse of rimfires--at least that's what happened to me with 10M air rifles (Anschutz, Steyr, Walther, FWB, Diana).  I really enjoy the subtle differences between them, but the problem is that I'm really spoiled by the match triggers (20 gram 1st stage, 70 gram 2nd stage and very crisp).

Because the 1712 and 54.18 aren't that much different in price, I was considering just the 54.18 because of the better trigger and ergonomics.  I see what you're saying though about being able to shoot a sporter well to acquire discipline and having that translate into better shooting with a target gun.

I guess what I really need to do is get a chance to shoot both and see for myself which I wish to start with, since I will probably end up with both at some future time.

[chunter]

While the 54.18 MSR is a great gun, I actually prefer to shoot the 1712 FWT (Feather Weight). I shoot this sporter, 2lb trigger, better than the 54.18 by around 5 more animals.  The 2lb trigger is a different beast all-togther, but if you can shoot a 2lb trigger well than you can shoot a 3 ounce trigger well also. I must agree that the 2lb trigger is not a handicap if you know how to shoot it. It just requires a different level of trigger control that many people are not willing to work for.

Most of the new shooters start off with a hunter gun and use it in both classes, and then work towards getting a standard gun.  Mainly it comes down to if you only get the standard gun ie. 54.18,  then you would only be able to shoot half the matches.  You would have to sit out while they shot the hunter gun.  That may be what you want...I would definitely check out a smallbore match and see how they do it. It would definitely give you a better perspective on what you want to do.

I have never seen anybody switch stocks out on an action to make it work to the specs for both matches.  In fact I don't think it would be practical as far as having to get a new zero every time you did it, in most matches you wouldn't have time.

Anschutz's has change there numbering system around quite a bit, so as far as naming conventions it depends on the year it was made.  
17xx series-- Anschutz 54 action
FWT(Feather Weight)--mcmillan Fiberglass stock,
1710 (wood stocks) single stage triggers (different barrel lengths)
1712 (wood stock)  2 stage 2lb trigger

14xx series and some others use the 64 action.  They do not have as fast of a lock time, they are okay for the money, but not the same.
The 54 action is like a Harley, you know when you have one. They have a distinct sound and feel. They are beefy and have a solid resonation when you cycle the bolt.

Hopefully I answered some of your questions

[RobbW]

While the 54.18 MSR is a great gun, I actually prefer to shoot the 1712 FWT (Feather Weight).

Anschutz's has change there numbering system around quite a bit, so as far as naming conventions it depends on the year it was made.  
17xx series-- Anschutz 54 action
FWT(Feather Weight)--mcmillan Fiberglass stock,
1710 (wood stocks) single stage triggers (different barrel lengths)
1712 (wood stock)  2 stage 2lb trigger

14xx series and some others use the 64 action.  They do not have as fast of a lock time, they are okay for the money, but not the same.
The 54 action is like a Harley, you know when you have one. They have a distinct sound and feel. They are beefy and have a solid resonation when you cycle the bolt.

Hopefully I answered some of your questions

Thanks chunter.  This REALLY helps.  It all makes sense now and I don't feel like I'm swimming against the current anymore.  

54 action on a 17xx it is for me.  On the single vs. double stage trigger, I assume they break at the same weight?  I'm used to shooting double stage so I would prefer the 1712 unless the single stage is inherently superior.

On the stock, well, my mind says fiberglass but my heart always says wood.  I'll look at a Macmillan stock and decide which way to go from there.

I use BKL mounts with my air rifles.  Is there another hot ticket, or will they do for small bore as well?

I really appreciate the leg up you all have given me.  I'm sure you've helped me avoid several expensive mis-steps.  I'll post back when I get my first match under my belt.

[chunter]

here is an Anschutz catalog...has some pictures

http://www.shooterscatalogue.com/Color%20Catalogs/Ans%20Sport%20Catalog%20and%20Prices.pdf

[hh4064]

This is truly a difficult decision. There are several quality shooters out there. High end>>>Anschutz, kimber, Cooper, Med range>>>Tikka, Remington, But let me tell you the new CZ silhouette is worth a look. This is hard for me to admit because I have a stable of Anschutz rifles at my disposal, but, my new CZ suprised the crap out of me. With federal gold medal match this thing shoots like my anschutz. AND I AM NOT KIDDING. All I did was bed it and WOW. I have over 10, 5 shot groups that are a truly M.O.A. 3, 5 shot groups that are exactly the size of a nickel. And YES one target that is just larger then a dime. This is at 100 yrs HONEST. Of course I have groups that are not close to this too>>>cuz of my superior bench rest skills YUK YUK..... But for the money please take a look at the CZ before anyone spends >1500.00 on a high end gun you might be pleasantly suprised.
keep your powder dry
mbj michigan

[Jerry G]

I have been shooting this game for a few years and and the most important thing I have learned is if you think you are going to shoot for awhile, don't try to poor-boy it.  A good rifle such as the Anschutz 1712 with a synthetic stock is the way to go.  I guess there are other quality rifles out there so get a good one.  The plastic stock will save you some frustration on sighting in before the match.  The POI of the plastic stock doesn't change like the wood does if you shoot under differing conditions and it needs less care.  The wood is purty(I like this word) and heavy and moves with moisture.  The plastic is ugly, light and stable, but you can paint it.  Take your pick.

[RobbW]

I took seriously what most of you advised and now have a fine looking 1712 in my safe.  It is a joy to cycle and balances well offhand for me.  Thank you all for your input regarding all smallbore choices.

I really like a wood stock and have some old airguns with some very fine French and other walnut--but I wanted this to be a shooter and so I went with the synthetic.  Every little bit will help me.

I'm now saving for a Leup.  Either the Comp 35x or the Premier Reticle boosted 18-40x.  Will take a couple of months to make scratch, but then I'll be set for the rest of my life in this category of rifle.  I'm delighted with the quality of the machining and finish on this Annie.

THanks again for all of the help!