Bore butter troubleshooting.

[New Hampshire]

Ok, I read the past post that borebutter and oil dont mix.  So today I decided to wash the oil out of the bbl of my BRAND NEW (emphisis to show that Im not working with an old or pitted bbl,) Deerstalker.  So I take rubing alcohol and drench the bore.  The patch comes out with the yellow/brownish hint that was the oil.  I ran dry patch after dry patch till I knew the bore was dry and then used a patch and worm to really dry out the breech.  So I am starting with a fresh slate.  I paste enough bore butter into the bore with a q-tip, run a patch down and up a few times, repeate with bore butter...etc.  I did this about three times.  But whats really got me scratching my head and annoying me is that the patch that is in contact with the bore is coming out brown in color.  I know its not rust cuz of the clean patches before I started.  I had this happen when I first got the rifle, but assumed I hadnt cleaned the cosmoline (or whatever they use from the factory) completly out.  So I had Hoppes #9ed it to death then put the oil down the bore and thought nothing of it.  But I am almost positive I got all that factory gunk out and here the patches are coming out brown.  WHAT THE HEY IS GOING ON?  Is this normal for you guys?  I got the same thing with my CVA, but I blamed it on an old, pitted bore.  So can anyone explain this phenominon?
Brian M.

[quickdtoo]

The best cleaner I've found for getting a bore really clean is really hot water, boiling if you can do it safely. It will literally remove anything that's ever been in the bore and you can start fresh with bore butter in the still warm barrel. I don't use any oil in the bore of any of my muzzleloaders, just bore butter, has worked for me since bore butter and before it,  wonderlube first came out years ago.

[roundball]

Ditto...get the bore back to factory bare raw metal condition with a lot of pump flushing steaming hot soapy water, then a good scrubbing with a bore brush, more pump flushing, then a hot water rinse.

IMMEDIATELY after the rinse, get the water out quickly with patches before it 'flash rusts'...then let the heat of the barrel work for a few minutes to get it bone dry, before you start packing it with bore butter.

The trick is 100% cleaning AND DRYING before heavily coating the bore's surfaces with natural lube 1000 so air (moisture/humidity) can't touch it.

Done it for years on several rifles and their bores are still like mirrors today...Enjoy !!

[crow_feather]

Yup! What I woulda said, ifn you hadnta said it first.

C F

[Ramrod]

But I am almost positive I got all that factory gunk out and here the patches are coming out brown.  WHAT THE HEY IS GOING ON?  Is this normal for you guys?  I got the same thing with my CVA, but I blamed it on an old, pitted bore.  So can anyone explain this phenominon?
Brian M.

What is going on is that the metal is quite porous on a microscopic level, and alot of oil has been absorbed during manufacture and shipping. Like the other folks said, you didn't get it all out. It may ooze for a while.

[New Hampshire]

Thank you gents, I guess I got some washing to do  :grin: .
Brian M.

[savageT]

New Hampshire,
Try using some good de-greasing solvent like a commercial brake-cleaner to clean your bore.  I've done the exact same thing with a couple barrels (one was a new 20 ga. Mossberg 500) and kept getting brown stained patches out till I got serious with the brake/carb. cleaner.  Saves alot of time and patches...then you can get out the very hot, soapy water and flush!

ps.....I buy my spray brake/carb. cleaners from Wal-Mart and buy the cheapest I can find.
Jim

[New Hampshire]

Thanks SavageT Ill pick some up, then hit it with the hot, wet stuff   .
Brian M.

[flintlock54]

Hooked breech:
Hot water bath. Extra hot water rinse. The extra heat helps air dry faster. Soaked patch with gun oil followed by a dry patch to swab the excess oil.  

Pinned barrels:
Swab with Butchs BP solvent. Rinse with cold water and flax tipped worm. Swab dry and oil.

Never had a rust problem or cleaning problem.

Help me out here.

For those that like bore butter. What is to be gained by slobbering up your bore with something that looks and feels like greasy old lard.

[Ramrod]

Help me out here.

For those that like bore butter. What is to be gained by slobbering up your bore with something that looks and feels like greasy old lard.

I don't like bore butter because I'm too cheap to pay that much for grease.
But...
Greasy old lard worked hunderds of years, and still does, so does  mutton tallow, bear grease, mink oil, and dozens of other natural fats. Why do you think you can do better?

[roundball]

For those that like bore butter. What is to be gained by slobbering up your bore with something that looks and feels like greasy old lard.

FYI...your choice of words makes you come across like one of those people who disdains everything else that other people use if it doesn't happen to be something that you personally understand or agree with...I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but that's how it comes across.

But to clarify for you, Natural Lube 1000 is a simple lube manufactured in an attempt to be like lubes of the old days which did not contain oils as we know them today...it's intended for use in muzzleloaders with blackpowder (also works with Pyrodex), it works as advertised...it let's me shoot all day long without having to wipe between shots...it looks good, it smells good, it's readily available, it's consistent, it's easy to use, it's effective, etc.

If I wanted to use modern rifles and solvents, I'd just use any one of several fine Leupold scoped Remingtons I have, or Marlins, S&W's, etc, and clean them with the bottles of Hoppe's, Shooter's Choice, and mil-spec bore cleaners & lubricants I have on the shelf.

But that's old news...been there / done that...it's not what traditional muzzleloading is all about.

[savageT]

Not to get off the subject, but does anyone else have a problem with Borebutter turning rock-hard in the tube at 70 degree temps??  Isn't there some other brand that would maintain a more consistant viscosity between summer heat and winter hunting temperatures?  Lard or Crisco doesn't get that hard!

Jim

[roundball]

Jim, I've never noticed NL1000 getting hard in a tube at 70 degrees, but have noticed it does at lower temps like 40-50...but I never have a scenario where I have to use lube from the tube when it's cold so it's a non-issue for me.

The only time I use NL1000 out of the tube is:

After cleaning following a hunt or range trip and all the supplies are in the garage (attached to the house) so it's warm and soft.

Or, pre-lubing some unlubed TC Maxi-Hunters at a table in the house;

Or, melting it in the microwave making lubed cleaning/seasoning patches;

[harryo]

[quote="roundball
But to clarify for you, Natural Lube 1000 is a simple lube manufactured in an attempt to be like lubes of the old days which did not contain oils as we know them today...it's intended for use in muzzleloaders with blackpowder (also works with Pyrodex), it works as advertised...it let's me shoot all day long without having to wipe between shots...it looks good, it smells good, it's readily available, it's consistent, it's easy to use, it's effective, etc.
[/quote]

With all this talk, and different opinions,  about Bore Butter, Natural Lube 1000 and Wonder Lube I remembered reading some discussion in the past, on another forum, about these products and whether they really were natural or didn't contain petroleum products.  I did some research, using Google, and came up with this following interesting tidbit :
http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html

Now, I'm not being argumentative or taking a position one way or another.  I don't use any of the mentioned products regularly, although I have used prelubed patches occasionally from both TC and Ox Yoke and have had no problems with them.  I just thought it was rather interesting reading.

[roundball]

I thought you had found some official chemical analysis findings from a reputable firm or something...that was nothing more than a few guys discussing problems and blaming Natural Lube 1000...the real problem is a lack of understanding the big picture...the dependency on getting the bore clean and back to a pure raw bare metal state before you begin with NL1000, and never allowing oil in the bore after that.

By contrast to those problems being discussed, I make a range trip every Saturday morning that I can year round...summer, fall, winter, and spring weather covering the extremes of temperature and humidity...doesnt matter, works perfectly any time, every time, all the time.

I dry patch the excess NL1000 out of the bore when I get there, use Goex powder, Natural Lube 1000, Hornady balls, shoot 40 consecutive shots without ever wiping between them, then wipe the bore for the trip home.
I clean it 100% thoroughly with steaming hot soapy water, hot water rinse, bone dry the bore, and very heavily coat it with NL1000.

TC's own documented, published results state that they stopped after 1,015 consecutive shots without a patch being wiped down the bore.
I've been doing it with Pyrodex & percussions, then Goex & flintlocks approaching 15 years total now.

[flintlock54]

Do you actually consider a waxy substance that smells like BEN GAY traditional? If I recall it worked great for packing the grooves of the original T/C maxi balls. There are much better choices that are easier to apply for bore cleaning, round ball patch lube, and rust protection. Traditional and modern.

[roundball]

You've made it clear that you don't understand this type of lube, and it's also now clear that you really don't want to, you just want to provoke a fight for the sake of a fight...and that's a childish game that I won't play, so you'll just have to play with yourself.

Start studying lubes and black powder and it's chemicals and combustion residues and the associated concepts of really cleaning and lubing a bore, try to really comprehend the oil's effects on BP residue vs. the lack of effects on BP residue by lubes like these and eventually you'll get it.

PS: Yes, Natural Lube 1000 has a faint wintergreen smell...and I fill six deer tags every year with it in my flintlocks so they must love it!
 

[New Hampshire]

Well guys the Brake cleaner did the trick.  I soaked it good with the cleaner, crubbed with a brush, dry patched and repeated a few times.  Then I used T/C cleaner to sop the bore out.  Got her all dried up and dumped in the bore butter.  Got a couple of teeny little streaks, but the lube stayed yeller!  So it worked.
As to why I use bore butter?  Dont mind paying the price, heard good things about it, in my limited experience I can stuff patchand ball after patch and ball down the bore with no problem (I use pre-lubed T/C patches with BB on them.)  It smells better than oil.  Untill I find a better product Ive no reason to switch.  
Brian M.

[Longcruise]

I did some research, using Google, and came up with this following interesting tidbit :
http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html

I'm not a member of the list that you found this info on but I'm familiar with the personality who initiated the thread and presented the forwared message.  He markets a lube of his own making and has bashed 1000+ and wonder lube over and over on the web.

I have used a bunch of wonder lube and 1000+ and never encountered the problems that he claims he has had with it :?

I live in a part of the country where the humidity can vary from 15% one day to 90% the next and will say that at the very low humidity levels the 1000+ and wonder lube don't make it all that easy to load shot after shot without wiping, but on the humid days there seems to be no limit to the number of shots possible.

There are many good commercial and home made lubes around and many of them seem to work very well.  IMO, the 1000+ and wonder lube do shoot well and make a pretty good bore preservative too.

But, that's only my opinion.

[harryo]

I'm not a member of the list that you found this info on but I'm familiar with the personality who initiated the thread and presented the forwared message.  He markets a lube of his own making and has bashed 1000+ and wonder lube over and over on the web.

I have used a bunch of wonder lube and 1000+ and never encountered the problems that he claims he has had with it :?

I live in a part of the country where the humidity can vary from 15% one day to 90% the next and will say that at the very low humidity levels the 1000+ and wonder lube don't make it all that easy to load shot after shot without wiping, but on the humid days there seems to be no limit to the number of shots possible.

There are many good commercial and home made lubes around and many of them seem to work very well.  IMO, the 1000+ and wonder lube do shoot well and make a pretty good bore preservative too.

But, that's only my opinion.

As I said before, I am not taking a position now, nor have I ever.  I only supplied the link because I found it interesting and thought others might, too.  Some have said that they have had probems with the mentioned lubes and some have said that they have not.  I wouldn't disagree with any of these people.  Everyone needs to use something that workd for them, in their circumstances, and that they have faith in.  I leave it to each to make their own choices.  I repeat that I have had limited experience with both products as a patch lube and they worked admirably, for that purpose, and caused no problems.  

However, I do find it a biut of a stretch that these products are advertised as all natural and that is used as a marketing ploy to convince users that this makes them better than other alternatives.  I would be extremely surprised if they are not actually repackaged products that were developed for another purpose.  This is not to say that they won't work for a lube or preservative.  I just don't believe that they were developed for that as their primary purpose.

[Longcruise]

harryo, I understand.  I was not attributing any of the opinions from the other thread to you, but just wanted to shed a bit more light on the comments it contains.

[roundball]

I did some research, using Google, and came up with this following interesting tidbit :
http://roxen.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html

I'm not a member of the list that you found this info on but I'm familiar with the personality who initiated the thread and presented the forwared message.  He markets a lube of his own making and has bashed 1000+ and wonder lube over and over on the web.

I have used a bunch of wonder lube and 1000+ and never encountered the problems that he claims he has had with it :?

I live in a part of the country where the humidity can vary from 15% one day to 90% the next and will say that at the very low humidity levels the 1000+ and wonder lube don't make it all that easy to load shot after shot without wiping, but on the humid days there seems to be no limit to the number of shots possible.

There are many good commercial and home made lubes around and many of them seem to work very well.  IMO, the 1000+ and wonder lube do shoot well and make a pretty good bore preservative too.

But, that's only my opinion.

...It's MORE than your opinion Longcruise...it the facts... :grin:

[R J Talley]

I used BB for a couple of years and found it to be OK except in the heat of summer when it becomes rubby. I solved that buy mixing it with SPG lube.  Now it sticks to the bullets and doesn't run all over the place. I have no idea what's in SPG but it is a very effective lube for BP cartridge. I like it over the chambers on my CB Remington.

[Longcruise]

Never considered SPG for a ml lube, but it seems like a good idea.  I'm going to try your idea of mixing SPG with BB.  Thanks for the tip.

[R J Talley]

Runny, I meant runny, not rubby. Geez, it was late when I wrote that.  I have used all sorts of stuff for BP lube. I have even used ATF (automatic transmission fluid Dextron III) for a long while. It is supposed to be a very excellent substitute for sperm oil. I've never had any trouble with it. Of course, I wipe after every third shot too. My wiping patches are soaked in a 50/50 mix of distilled water and radiator coolant. The coolant is ethylene glycol based (an alcohol) and really cuts through the crud.  In BP cartridge, I shoot a 45-90 Sharps.  By lubeing with SPG and by putting a 1/8" cookie of SPG/BB between the powder charge and the wad I can go 10 shots without any fall off in accuracy...even in very hot dry weather.  Cartridge shooters have used lubes that mix vasoline and bees wax for years and nobody has reported a tar-like build up in the bore. Quite the opposite in fact.

 My recent experiments with lube have also included adding a small amount of carnuba wax to the basic BB and SPG lube mix. The result is a very shinny bore that neither lead nor fouling likes to stick to.  I have only used this in cartridge arms so far. However, it's my intention to give it a go in my Zuave the next time I go to the range.  

So what does all of this mean? Well, I'm not too sure. My present lube for muzzleloading is based on lard, SPG lube and a small amount of Ivory soap shavings. I melt all of this in a double boiler and pour it into plastic squeeze tubes that my wife's hair gell comes in. The soap serves as an emulsifier, keeping everything from separating as they warm up on hot days. It doesn't take too much, just a teaspoon or so shaved into the lard/SPG mix as it melts.  The Lard is mixed with SPG at about a three to one ratio. This keeps fouling very soft, is stiff enough to stay in the grooves of a minnie and is fluid enough to soak patches. It smells good but is in no way hydroscopic.

 I have a can of anhydrous lanolin that I use in making Ed's Red bore cleaner. I'm thinking of adding it to this lube mix. It has the benefit of holding moisture in suspension 9so it doesn't migrate into the powder charge or combine with the iron in the barrel) as well as providing excellent lubrication. If I could get some H2O into the lube it might just aid in softening powder fouling even more. Certainly it would keep the sulfer and charcoal residue from combining into a hard mass. Any way, I'll report back on that after testing.

[savageT]

OK.......I've waited long enough.  What is SPG?

Jim

[quickdtoo]

Here ya go...

http://www.blackpowderspg.com/history_body.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/542859

[R J Talley]

I'm sorry, I took it for granted that folks knew what SPG was. I shouldn't have...  

Any way, if you look through books on the use of BP in military arms from the 19th century, beeswax comes up a lot. It was used along with mutton tallow to lubricate most of the bullets the British fired in the conquest of the far east and Africa.  By varying the percentage of beeswax one can control the melting point of the lube. In cartridges, you want it higher than in muzzloaders. The principle point being that rapid fire in muzzleloaders is perhaps 3-4 shots a minute. In cartridge arms it could be 20 or more. Obviously, heat build-up is much more of an issue in BP cartridge arms.

Another consideration is lubricant migration. In cartridges that may not be used for weeks or months-even years, the lube needs to stay put regardless of the climate extremes. In muzzleloaders, a day or so is the most a charge will remain in a gun before being fired. Lube migration is far less of an issue.  Straight Crisco or lard will not stay put as temps climb past the 70s or so. Hence, in cartridge arms, a stiffening agent is required. The best all-around agent has been beeswax. Unlike parafine, it never cakes, dissolves into other oils well and has a microfine crystaline structure that easily changes state under heat and pressure. Thus, it makes an exellant BP lube when mixed with an animal or vegetable oil.

If one adds an emulsifier such as sodium sterrate (as found in irovry soap) one can keep an even greater percentage of the oils in suspension and still maintain a soft consistancy over a wide range of temps; or so the story goes. Not being a chemist I will have to take the word of those who are unless my experience dictates something else.

All of this makes for a lot of fun experimentation and adds to the joy of the hobby for me. Of course, YMMV and that is what makes this whole thing so much fun. If you haven't tried SPG you should. For ML though, you're going to have to add additional lube to the mix; it simply won't be "wet" enough to lube your patches. The process does require a double boiler (ask the wife if this all seems Greek) otherwise you will scortch the lube and ruin it in short order.

[mike_h]

I used borebutter exclusively until I discovered it was a major contribution as to why i couldnt group consistently and had trouble getting a clean and rust free barrel. I switched to Ballistol and a "dry patch" system and I have been shooting 1/2"-5/8" 5 shot groups @ 50 yards with iron sights ever since. Have never had a problem with rust since either.
 The Ballistol oil will actually mix with water, its a great cleaning solution when mixed about 1:4 ratio. (1 part Ballistol 4 parts water) since the water in the mixture will evaporate leaving behind the oil to coat the surface of the bore inside and out. Give it a try, you wont regret it.

[montanadan]

I used to use BB, then I switched to BALLISTOL. It has worked just fine for me. I in all my guns, I have no problems. I live in Central WYO., very seldom does the humidity get very high. Not trying to start anything,just wondering how many other shooters use it. Montanadan.......... P.S. I read this forum a lot, thanks for all the help.