What are the latest rules

[longgun]

I have just finished a new hunter rifle and the magazine box is too short to accommodate my ram loads with VLD bullets.  I'm trying to keep from modifying the magazine box.   So what are the latest rules on loading the mag for hunter rifle?  Can I load one round at a time through the mag or do I have to load a full magazine?  Would sure make things more simple if I could load and fire one round at a time  Who has the latest rule book that can shed some light here?   Don

[nomad]

Don,
The latest 'book' says:
3.1.1 (f)
"Magazines may not be loaded with more than 5 rounds. During the match, all cartridges must be loaded from the magazine. Magazines not capable of holding 5 rounds may be reloaded as required, or for removable magazines/clips, multiply magazines may be used."

That has been interpreted by some guardhouse lawyers as meaning that rounds that are overlong may be loaded into the chamber 'from' the magazine -- and feed ramp -- one-at-a-time. (I don't think anybody really believes that that was the intent but a few have gone Klintonian with it: "What is the definition of 'from'?")
There was something about this that came up at nats but I don't remember the decision. (I 'think' that it was not allowed but I could easily be wrong.)
You better check with GC.
IMO, if they allow that, they might as well just allow single-shot hunters -- since that's what you're describing; a rifle with a magazine...that functions only as a 'single-shot' as you plan to use it.
(Fortunately[?]   I am not the authority....)

[nomad]

That should, of course, say: multipl'E' mags -- NOT multipl'Y'.
What I get for typing after dinner time!

[cslcAl]

I remember the directions we were given at Raton. The magazine must be loaded to capacity when the ready command is given; and all rounds must be fed out of the magazine. I don't see where this is a problem even with long bullets such as the VLD's. I am using the new Sierra 175 MK in my 7-08 Rem. Classic; and they are extremely long. I purposely seat them down far enough as to not have any feeding problems. I have not experienced and ill effects in accuracy loading them this way.  Al Foust

[K2]

Unfortunately you are not in authority Nomad as you are right on target!  If the gun must be single loaded then it is in fact a single shot.  Why have rules about needing a 5 shot magazine if it is not to hold 5 rounds?  The way to deal with the pushers of the rules is to push back.  How anyone can spend all the time and $ to build a custom gun and then have it not accomodate the loads for it is amazing enough, but to then want to bend the rules because of their lack of foresight is absolutely amazing!  

Don,
The latest 'book' says:
3.1.1 (f)
"Magazines may not be loaded with more than 5 rounds. During the match, all cartridges must be loaded from the magazine. Magazines not capable of holding 5 rounds may be reloaded as required, or for removable magazines/clips, multiply magazines may be used."

That has been interpreted by some guardhouse lawyers as meaning that rounds that are overlong may be loaded into the chamber 'from' the magazine -- and feed ramp -- one-at-a-time. (I don't think anybody really believes that that was the intent but a few have gone Klintonian with it: "What is the definition of 'from'?")
There was something about this that came up at nats but I don't remember the decision. (I 'think' that it was not allowed but I could easily be wrong.)
You better check with GC.
IMO, if they allow that, they might as well just allow single-shot hunters -- since that's what you're describing; a rifle with a magazine...that functions only as a 'single-shot' as you plan to use it.
(Fortunately[?]   I am not the authority....)

[bgjohn]

Too !@#$%^&* many rules.
JM

[longgun]

I had thought that I needed to use the magazine box.   However earlier this month I was at a match where conditions are relaxed and lay back.  
Several ppl were feeding single shot through mag.   I thought perhaps that they may know something that I didn't know.   I had already considered that I would  have to "fix" it.   I have built up a 7 BR on a Chas Daly mini-mauser to " play with "  next year.   Had a standard 7 BR once before but wanted to try it for a hunter this year.  Fired a few shots yesterday and it seems to be accurate enough even with the first loading.
Don

[Hornetx60]

I was at a match at Atglen, PA last Sunday and this very topic came up in conversation with a new shooter. Greg connors just so happened to be at the match! So we went over all the possible variations that we could think of.  This is what he told us. NO Where in the rule does it say that the magazine or clip must be loaded to maximum.(which is very simple to see by reading the rule). It is legal to load one into the gun at a time and fire as long as the round is fed from the magazine. Now what is so damned hard to understand about that?  You can also load multiple magazines. I use a Tikka so I simply use two clips 3 in one 2 in the other. You could walk to the line with 5 clips if you wanted and after the ready command is given proceed to load one single round into each of 5 separate clips and drop and exchange clips after each shot. It wouldn't make much sense but it is perfectly legal under the rules. The only real issue with a hunter gun is that the cartridges must be fed from a magazine unless the gun is a true single shot.  So picture this, you could take a Rem 40x action and build a hunter gun and there ya go you could legally feed them one at a time. But I don't think this would fly if you took an ADL or BDL and slapped a single shot follower into it and now called it a single shot. That is trying to skirt the rules. This crap of having relaxed rules at local matches is what causes a lot of these problems. I don't agree with the fact that in hunter class you have to wait until after the ready command to load the external clips. BUT that is the rule so I follow it when I shoot the gun in Hunter. 2 relays later when I shoot it in Standard when I walk to the line those clips are already loaded. Just follow the rules the way they are written. If you don't like them attempt to change them. But if you feel you must work around the rules then go find another sport! Bill Robinson

[Hornetx60]

Nomad If you read the rules single shot hunters are legal !! Rule 3.1.1 It does not rule out single shot hunters it is just saying that when weighing a single shot rifle no magazine or clip must be considered for weight. and it even goes one step further by saying " all other types must be repeating rifles'"

[nomad]

Only problem with that is that the rules don't say what they mean. The wording used to be something like: "Single-shots with two-piece stocks were allowed and all others must be repeaters." That permitted the Ruger #1, TC and such like.
Then they 'improved' the wording and screwed it up.
If you show up at a major match with a bolt-action, single-shot hunter, you're going to get protested...IF you get through tech.
Actually, the wording is a bit silly: 'they either have to be single shots or repeaters' is a lot like saying: 'people should be either male or female.' There just aren't all that many other choices...outside of Kalifornia, New York or Miami!  
The phrase: "The intent is to describe a common hunting rifle." is used to cover it. AKAIK there is NO 'common' single-shot, bolt-action 'hunting' rifle on the market that isn't a varmint rig -- and 'varmint' is sort of exclusionary, just the same as it is on a bbl.

[nomad]

Keep in mind that this applies only to HP rifles. Single-shot bolts are specifically allowed in SB. They opened that door with the 40XR sporter and now it's universal.
And ignore that mix of tenses in the comment on what the rules 'used to was'. I actually know how to keep the same tense through a whole sentence oncet I've writ it! :oops:

[Silo65]

Longgun

I'm the shooter Hornetx60 was talking about.  Greg perceived that I was having difficulty in loading rounds into the magazine.  After the first bank of five he told me that the rules only require that the rounds be chambered from the magazine and I could load it as many times as I liked.  He suggested 3 followed by 2.  

He also said this was required only if the rounds could be placed in the magazine.  I found this interesting because I was holding the bullets substantially off the lands in order for the rounds to fit in the Rem magazine.  Similar to your situation.  I took this to mean that if the rounds did not fit in the magazine they could be loaded singly.  

Unfortunately, on the fly rule interpretations won't help in a match where Greg is not present.  I did mentioned to him that the rule was unclear.

Silo65

[nomad]

Silo65,

This isn't intended as a flame or a prelude to an argument -- even though I can't think of any way to make it diplomatic -- it's actually a question that I don't see an answer for:

How is it possible for anyone to go to a national championship competition without clarifying in advance any questions he has about the rules and/or with an untested rifle/ammunition combination?

IMO -- and there are people whom I know, like and respect who disagree with me -- going to nats that way is akin to a team showing up at the Super Bowl and saying: "Nah! We haven't worked out any plays or made sure that we know the rules -- we just figure to improvise after it gets going!"

[Hornetx60]

Silo 65,  It actually wasn't you I was refering to but your situation is a good example. The question actually came up with another shooter. Your assumption about being allowed to use longer rounds isn't really in the spirit of the rules. But it is in the letter. So the problem is some individuals will take advantage of this rule in a gun like a Rem 700 where you can get one round into the Mag. even if it is over length because it will clear the front lip. This is some pretty lame crap. If a shooter has to stoop to that level he probably isn't one of the top level shooters. The next step is the shooter who knowingly just feeds the rounds straight into the gun with out ever putting them into the magazine. Now that is nothing but cheating in Hunter class
 My ram loads are .400" + off the lands in my Tikka and will shoot under 4" @ 500 meters. I have to seat them that short to get them into the clips. Doesn't hurt the accuracy at all. Yup...it sure don't make sense but it works.
Nomad, Part of this problem comes from people going by memory instead of pulling out a current rule book and checking. Whatever the rule said last year doesn't mean a damned thing now. We must all follow the rule the way it is now even if we disagree with it.  Relaxing rules at the local matches is what starts a lot of this problem. I would never turn a new shooter away with an over weight gun. I would however get them to understand the importance of following the rules like all of the rest of the shooters for future matches.
Nomad... in the end ...all the bells and whistles and hot guns will only help the absolute best shooters. Iv'e been involved in pistol and rifle silh for 14 years now. Not as long as some but a good length of time. Long enough to realize that most of the bitching about high dollar or tricked out guns comes from those that either can't shoot or refuse to spend the money for whatever may be their reason. On the other side of the coin I know quite a few shooters that spend a lot of money, have progressed slowly but are having a hell of a lot of fun at it. and they aren't bitching about it. The funny thing is the loudest ones are only a very small minority but they sound off enough to make you think they are the majority.  Now I'm sure that last statement will bring on some flames...but the truth usually does when it hits home! Bill R

[Silo65]

nomad
No offense taken.  All rule books are open to interpretation as can be seen by the number of posts here and interpretations different than the match director's don't fly at a match.  If you are in a grey area, get it clarified in writing by someone in authority rather than relying on verbal advice.  Your suggestion to nomad to contact Greg Connor was a good one.

I need to clarify that I was not criticizing Greg.  He was attempting to help me and I appreciate it.  He was also very helpful when I first got into the sport by sending the latest rulebook and match results.  He's a good advocate.

[Gringo Grizzly]

Fellow shooters,
Looking at the rule book I have to agree that SURELY the intent of the rules is to load the magazines of HPHR's to capacity.

I remember a shooter (Carl Nye) on the line at the natls a few years ago - and he was loading single rounds -loaded one at a time - and was quickly called for this.

In his case, he had just forgotten about it and was loading as most of us do for standard rifle class.

We've become great quibblers haven't we?

This controversy further fuels my opinion - and it's just my opinion - that - as I stated a few years ago when we went away from production rifles - that we have opened Pandora's box.

We no longer have a Standard and HUNTER class, we now have a Heavy and LIGHT rifle class.

Even though I'm building a rifle to take advantage of the so-called hunter rules, I'd love to see us retreat to where we were before the fiasco started.


If this isn't possible or drew too much fire, maybe a separate "Production Hunter" class could be created.

Gringo

[K2]

Thats an X-ring for sure GG!

Those who want to win at all costs and those who are happy to build specialized equipment to relieve them of their extra dollars go hand in glove.  The idea of a production gun sport is very appealing but their are a fair amount of crybabies and rule benders that muck up a good thing.  

I would go you one step further and call it mass produced hunter and put the number to qualify as a mass produced gun at 100,000 of more rifles produced.  This would of course limit the number of guns severly but would also bring it much closer to what most people truly hunt with.  I would also limit the scope to 9x max, and triggers to a 2 lb pull minimum.  

Standard is where they can go wild and they should be encouraged to do so there.  MP Hunter is where you can entice the average guy into the sport.  Silhouette is plenty big for both types of shooters.  

Fellow shooters,
Looking at the rule book I have to agree that SURELY the intent of the rules is to load the magazines of HPHR's to capacity.

I remember a shooter (Carl Nye) on the line at the natls a few years ago - and he was loading single rounds -loaded one at a time - and was quickly called for this.

In his case, he had just forgotten about it and was loading as most of us do for standard rifle class.

We've become great quibblers haven't we?

This controversy further fuels my opinion - and it's just my opinion - that - as I stated a few years ago when we went away from production rifles - that we have opened Pandora's box.

We no longer have a Standard and HUNTER class, we now have a Heavy and LIGHT rifle class.

Even though I'm building a rifle to take advantage of the so-called hunter rules, I'd love to see us retreat to where we were before the fiasco started.


If this isn't possible or drew too much fire, maybe a separate "Production Hunter" class could be created.

Gringo

[Hornetx60]

Be very careful how many categories you ask for! That is the very thing that is killing off IHMSA.  It doesn't matter how tricked out a gun is, if the shooter is a good one he will do well and often win even with a stock gun. So why should the guys that wish to play with extra bells and whistles be punished? Is it jealousy of their money, or of their skill? The rules have been changed! As long as each shooter stays within the rules what is the problem. If there is an issue at a match it should be brought to the MD's attention and the rule book brought out. If the gun can be proven beyond any doubt to be illegal under the rules then it should be disqualified. It is pretty simple.
As far as the magazines being loaded to full capacity...Well I heard it from Greg Connors mouth that the rule does NOT state that. That it is legal to feed one at a time into the magazine first.  Bill R

[dave imas]

i'm with Bill.  Last couple of matches I went to I didn't get any extra points for my rifle being pretty.  (it isn't but that's not the point)  It is the score that counts.  Technology in tennis racquets changes, golf clubs, sail boats, hell...  I compete in stockdog trials and folks are always breeding to get a better dog.  Are you suggesting that folks should only shoot $1/box ammunition in the production class?  Gosh knows you probably don't shoot $9/box ammunition when you are out plunking squirrels.

We started with a production(hunter) rifle class with lots of rules to ensure it was a production rifle.  Things happened and the rules have changed.  Learn to live with it.  The current rules seem to make more sense than anything I've seen come out of the Silhouette Committee for a long time.  If it walks, talks, and poops like a duck, it is.  8.5lbs, 2lb trigger, tapered barrel, and has to look like a hunter rifle.  So beautiful in its simplicity.

To be really successful at anything takes a huge investment of time, energy, and, sometimes money.  The last time I went to the nationals in Ridgway the trip cost about $1500.  A couple cases of good ammunition a year, match fees, gas, and lunch to your local matches...  Range time for practice...  I have long since learned that the rifle is the least expensive part of this game.  
Quit whining and buck up.  Shoot what you got.  If you can outshoot your equipment then get better equipment.  If you can't, then learn to shoot better.  Really a simple equation.
sorry for the rant but i get tired of the whining.
dave imas

[Slowstdy]

I'm with Bill and Dave all the way. Walk the Walk. Talk the Talk. Poop the Poop and if at all possible shoot the animals, especially the ones in your own bank.
Cheers Dave C

[AMB]

Not to jump on the band wagon, but Robinson and Imas are right.  Don't even talk about different classes. IHMSA has killed itself by all the classes, and so many complicated rules.  Remember rifle put a hurt'in on itself with the chin guns a few years back. Now the rules are pretty straight forward, and simple. Basically, as long as it looks like a Hunter Rifle it's good to go. And, reallistically there are choices off the shelf such as the Tikka's and Sako's that won't break the bank you can shoot that will not leave you at a significant disadvantge regardless of what the other guy puts together. Besides, classes are there to compensate for this problem.  Once you max out on your ability and your guns capability, if it's not good enough to challenge for match winner and thats your goal, improve your equipment or be satisfied and competitve in class.  That's the formula to success in all sports.

[Gringo Grizzly]

Those that actually took the time to read my post before attacking it will note that I twice mentioned that what I said was my opinion.

If this is a true forum, it should be a vehicle for dissent as well as agreement.

No one writing has any more authority than anyone else!

They'll also note that I said I was building such a rifle MYSELF,  which in fact, is a pretty good indication that I AM LIVING WITH IT  ("IT" being the new rules).

I also believe that regardless of what equipment is in use, the better shooters will usually win whatever match they're engaged in.

This dissent is about the spirit of the game.
I believe the hunter rifle class was more FUN when production type rifles were norm.

Next time any of you are at Ridgway, go the the clubhouse next to the highway and take a look at the aerial photo taken of the first silhouette nationals held at the facility.

You'll note the huge throng of people - many of whom were there to compete in the "Target Sport for Hunters", as it was written up in an issue of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN when the sport was young, the same issue that first caught my attention that rifle silhouette even existed way back in the 70's and directly led me to take up the sport.

Has the popularity of sport already declined?  

It'll take some really tinted rose-colored glasses not to look at the photo mentioned above to say that it hasn't.

Doesn't mean we CAN'T CONSIDER change.



Gringo

[nomad]

This is a thread that really took a left turn!

First off, it began as a question about single-loading hunters. Now it's degenerated into a pissing contest.

Getting back to the original question:

Does anyone on here REALLY believe that the intent of the rule was to allow single-shot or single-loading hunters? (Or is this just an attempt to slip past the intent by taking advantage of a poorly worded rule?)
IMO anyone who didn't attend the Klinton school of honesty has to admit that a rifle that won't accept more than one round at a time is a single-shot with that load...even if the round comes up 'sorta' from a magazine and/or with OTHER loads it functions normally. I also have a hard time believing that anyone thinks that a round that won't fit 'completely' within the magazine is a round loaded 'from' the magazine...but I didn't go to Slick's school.

What's the concensus:
Allow single-shot hunters?
Or require that 'repeaters' actually be repeaters and tell shooters that any time they can't load their mags 'normally' -- with at least 2 or 3  rounds at a time of WHATEVER LOAD THEY'RE SHOOTING -- they should go somewhere else and either fix their rifles or learn how to create loads that allow the magazine to work as designed and intended?

Like most people, I don't care what the rules are. I just expect them to be consistent.

[One]

I must say that I am a reader of this forum...not so much a poster. However, this thread has got me wondering...

Who really cares if one single loads their gun? I really don't see how it is going to make them shoot a 40.  In fact who cares whether the the hunter gun is tricked out almost like the standard gun. No matter what rules are being passed lately, I sure don't see anyone shooting 40/40 let alone a 60/60.

It seems like there is alot of argument over the piddely, worthless things, and these arguments are causing a lot of hurt feelings. We are causing problems in our own ranks , let alone countless others that look at this forum for a portal into the sport.  I don't care if you have a $300 gun or a $3000 gun, I bet you can get out shot.  Last time I checked this game had more to do with the shooter than the equipment, but hey maybe thats what I am doing wrong. Today, it doesn't matter how expensive your gun is, you are always going to want to better it. So what,  I imagine that even with a $10,000 gun someone is still going to beat you. I sure don't see a lot of the shooters that have shot 40/40's posting here, let alone  trying to pick apart the rules.  Seems like they might spend more time working on technique and their skills.

 This game should be a game where you bring your gun and you shoot metal animals and you have fun. Get rid of the piddly jealouslies that show up, and the feeling that someone has one up on you. If you want that go to the pistol silhouette forum, that will give hours of fun drama. Lets learn from the mistakes of the past and others, and try to tighten the clan and make it so others want to join....please remember I am not trying to hurt anyones feelings,  I just want you to see that we have better things to do..like bringing in new shooters.

SO

[K2]

Hi Gringo Grizzly

I think you can rest your arguement on the fact that the class was called "Hunter" indicating a real hunting rifle sport.  I am not advocating the NRA add another class, it would just be controversial and you know the rest.  I will say that the idea of a truly mass produced rifle class might get the attention of those who are staying far away from the sport currently.  

Those that actually took the time to read my post before attacking it will note that I twice mentioned that what I said was my opinion.

If this is a true forum, it should be a vehicle for dissent as well as agreement.

No one writing has any more authority than anyone else!

They'll also note that I said I was building such a rifle MYSELF,  which in fact, is a pretty good indication that I AM LIVING WITH IT  ("IT" being the new rules).

I also believe that regardless of what equipment is in use, the better shooters will usually win whatever match they're engaged in.

This dissent is about the spirit of the game.
I believe the hunter rifle class was more FUN when production type rifles were norm.

Next time any of you are at Ridgway, go the the clubhouse next to the highway and take a look at the aerial photo taken of the first silhouette nationals held at the facility.

You'll note the huge throng of people - many of whom were there to compete in the "Target Sport for Hunters", as it was written up in an issue of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN when the sport was young, the same issue that first caught my attention that rifle silhouette even existed way back in the 70's and directly led me to take up the sport.

Has the popularity of sport already declined?  

It'll take some really tinted rose-colored glasses not to look at the photo mentioned above to say that it hasn't.

Doesn't mean we CAN'T CONSIDER change.



Gringo

[Hornetx60]

Every sport will  gradually climb towards better equipment. The equipment race/ money race happens in every sport! It is just a evolutionary fact.  When Hunters class started guys were looking then for an edge so they looked for better guns so they bought high end guns . Then they bought small run guns built by custom Manufacturers all of which fit under the rules. Then push came to shove and the rules got changed some. Every sport evolves. You either evolve with it or step aside, the sport will either be strong enough to go on or it won't. But  the incessant whining about the past is childish. Things change deal with it.
If you want to shoot a stock gun and prove everyone wrong there is no one stopping you. So just get your 100,000 run gun and go beat every one. There is a lot of enjoyment in winning with a stock hunter gun.

[Arizona Jake]

I tend to agree with ONE. If you are a top notch shooter, the equipment cannot hurt you. If you are a poor or mediocre shooter, the gain will be minimal. It boils down to talent and a desire to win. Why is it that Agustin Sanchez regularly wins using borrowed rifles? I have seen the rifles he's borrowed, and they are nothing out of the ordinary. Remington 700 (.260 Rem.) in a Mcmillan Silhouette stock for high power and an Anschutz in the same type stock for smallbore. Scopes are Leupold.

No fancy wildcat calibers, racy stocks or other gimmicks.

Now, what should be done with those folks who pre-load their magazines before the "listo" command is given? I had the guy shooting next to me at the nationals at Ridgway last year doing that. I did not report him because my spotter told me he was not shooting worth a $%&&%#@.