Author Topic: SUNDAY WORK? (Read 2542 times)

powderman · « **on:** October 22, 2004, 04:07:19 PM »

I know there is a religious forum here at Greybeards, but I'd like to have a discussion here on a subject dear to me, here goes.
There are many, many places in the Bible about working, or doing business on the sabbath. I refer to Sunday as the Sabbath because it is probably the most followed example among the Christian world. I have read in the Bible several passages, but cannot find them that say it well. Woe to the King that causes his nation to sin, and woe to the man that causes his brother to sin. I don't work Sundays, don't believe in it. There is no reason for any business to be open on Sunday, except for emergency services and some necessary things. The real reason is greed. America has become completely oblivious to keeping the sabbath Holy as the Bible says we should. My question is this. If we shop on Sunday, go out to eat, etc, are we guilty of causing our brothers to sin? If no one shopped, nobody would have to work, right? Something to think about. POWDERMAN. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

big medicine · « **Reply #1 on:** October 22, 2004, 07:54:20 PM »

It is great in theory if you are lucky enough to work a regular job. I'm a PA in a small town. I average 60+ hours a week with 2-3 nights a week on call. For us on call usually means living at the hopsital. And the days we are not on call we are lucky to be out of work by 1730. This past week Sunday was my only day off. In that time I have to cram in everything that most folks get to do in the week. Change oil in the vehicles, cut and split fire wood, go to the store, mow the lawn, fix stuff around the house ect ect. Maby get to do something fun like go shoot. Or spend time with my family. I have had to pay late fees on bills because I couldnt get to stupid post office when it was open. I wish it was open on Sundays, and accually there is no reason it should not be. Since the Gov can not reconize God or mention God or anything to do with God, why should Gov offices be closed on Sunday?

I would love to have Sundays with nothing to do, in my world it is not a reality. Right now harvest is in full swing. If the weather is nice people need to be in the field, no matter which day of the week it is. You get it done when weather permits or you may not get it done at all. those same people need services to stay in the field. It is a lot more complicated than just staying home. God is either in your heart or not. If you take time to help your fellow man how ever that may be, is that not something God would approve of?

Aardvark · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2004, 01:40:46 AM »

If your sheep were to fall in a pit, would you not dig him out?

powderman · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2004, 03:39:12 AM »

These are the kind of comments I want to hear.
BIG MEDICINE. I really sympathize, but it has been man, not God that created our hurry up and get it world. The world has put God on the backburner somewhere. Sundays used to be a day of rest. A day where families actually spent the whole day together. There were no businesses open, weren't necessary. Just like in Exodus, if you needed food for Sunday, you got it on Saturday.
If we believe the Bible to be Gods word, what evidence do we have that God has changed his mind about keeping the Sabbath Holy? The job you have Big Medicine is definitely a necessary one and you should be commended for your work. Have to leave for work. Later, I'm looking forward to more comments. POWDERMAN.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2004, 03:42:52 AM »

Powder,here on the ranch,you work when work needs to be done and go to church if you can,sometimes you cut your way to church,most times there are animal and other things that come up that can't be put off.I believe there is more Lord in the Woods than churchs andways.

NYH1 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2004, 07:25:31 AM »

Quote from: powderman

The real reason is greed.

Your right, I get paid "double time" on Sunday. I have a wife, three kids a mortgage and a lot of other bills to pay, so I'll take it when I can get it.

big medicine · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2004, 09:06:01 AM »

The world has changed. Years ago people lived and died with in a few miles of where they were born. Never getting more than a few miles away in their life time. Not so any more. For us to go visit family it is a several hour drive. You have to be able to get fuel and a bite to eat along the way. If you go on a hunting trip ect you still need the same services. Your transporting game and need to get some ice ect. The reasons are endless, we are not in the stone age any more. If one worships God on Sunday have they not kept the day holy?

jh45gun · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2004, 01:00:25 PM »

1. God made Sundays for Worship in his name ( Church or other wise) 2. hunting and fishing. and 3. Football :grin: :grin: :grin:

ironglow · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2004, 02:34:00 PM »

Powderman;
This has always been a situation with me. I almost invariably make SS, Church Sundays and Bible study during the week.
I will sometimes garden or fire up my forge on a Sunday PM.
How do I justify such activity?

To me, it's simple...although it may not seem so to others.

Many Christians will play baseball, croquet or golf etc. on a Sunday afternoon...that is called play or recreation.../
Sorry; I'm one of those folks that never learned to "play" like that...my recreation (other than hunting) is what many others would call work!
I can "recreate" by splitting wood, forging a blade or weeding the garden...

There are times, although I try to keep them to a minimum, when I have to set up and demonstrate at a festival, fair or museum on a Sunday.
I have found a way to "redeem" the time , even then..
I weave in a moral/ gospel message into the demonstration.
Some would say " you better not talk Bible at such demonstrations!"..
I don't let that bother me...if they can't take this artist's demo the way he presents it...they are welcome to find another...
Noone ever has yet..; frankly, I am in demand enough, that it would be their loss. Such festivals and museums usually pass over many others to get me there.. so that puts the "ball in their park".
These days the making of an exact replica of the spikes used in HIS crucifixion is a very popular demo along with a blade or pruning hook forged on the spot...and all can be used to slip in the gospel message...

I can relate to Big Medicine...thank the Lord medical folks are there when we need them...even on weekends!

Now, with harvest in full swing, emergency calls from farms will probably increase..harvesting machinery , by it's very nature has blades and cutting instruments of all kinds...another thing to think about...

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2004, 03:40:53 PM »

My Sabbath is Saturday, as that is the 7th day, when G-d rested after creation.
Regardless of what day your Sabbath is, it is what you make of it.
I too have all of lifes financial burdens, and sometimes, I must work on a Saturday. I try not too, but I do what I must do to provide for my family.

We have a saying that goes something like: "For the maintenance of life, the Sabbath is overridden".
In other words, you do what you must if it involves keeping people alive, regardless of what day it is. Putting food on the table, a roof over ones head, and clothes on the back falls into that category as far as I can tell.

Ranger

powderman · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2004, 04:38:34 PM »

These are all good responses. There is always some work that must be done, I'm sure Moses didn't let the livestock go without food or water on the Sabbath, and I certainly didn't mean to infer that you must go to church to worship, or commune with God.
The Israelites were forbidden from doing business on the Sabbath. The vendors were run out of Jeruselum , so they set up business just outside the gates. They were told to leave the area and stop selling or they would be killed. If that was Gods feelings then, and I believe it was, why should we believe that God has changed his mind? Do we believe that God has changed his mind about other things too? How about rape, robbery, murder, or maybe it's ok to commit adultery now, after all, the world has changed. The world HAS changed, but why would we believe that Gods laws have been changed to fit our hectic lifestyles? What is work for some, is play to others, nothing wrong with that. My point is about non essential work, or businesses. How about kroger, walmart, or many other businesses? Are they essential? Something to think about. Many years ago there were no businesses open on Sunday.Families spent the day together, most men worked 5 days a week, and somehow survived. The divorce rate was very small compared to today. Women raised the kids and stayed home. We have created this mess, not God. Has he changed his mind about all of this? I doubt it. This post is meant to provoke comments and NOT to criticize or condemn anyone. If anybody has taken offense, I appologize, because that was not my intent. POWDEREMAN.

big medicine · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2004, 05:15:46 PM »

Powderman,
I never took it as anything except discussion :-) One of the things that I think about is the fact that God seperated us from the aminals by giving us the ability to think and reason. Humans are much different now than we were 2000 years ago, where as animals are not. We have evolved from the stone age to space travel and God gave us that ability I do not believe it was by accident. He are some other thoughts. By keeping the Sabbath holy, it doesnt specify you shouldnt work. I believe I read once that thou shall not kill, that also does not specify. We kill to put food on the table, but that too could be taken to the extreme. I guess that my thought is that we should not forget God on Sundays and to look to him for faith and guidence, if we do that then we have kept the day holy. Just another point of view. :wink:

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2004, 10:29:42 AM »

Quote from: big medicine

Powderman,
I never took it as anything except discussion :-) One of the things that I think about is the fact that God seperated us from the aminals by giving us the ability to think and reason. Humans are much different now than we were 2000 years ago, where as animals are not. We have evolved from the stone age to space travel and God gave us that ability I do not believe it was by accident. He are some other thoughts. By keeping the Sabbath holy, it doesnt specify you shouldnt work. I believe I read once that thou shall not kill, that also does not specify. We kill to put food on the table, but that too could be taken to the extreme. I guess that my thought is that we should not forget God on Sundays and to look to him for faith and guidence, if we do that then we have kept the day holy. Just another point of view. :wink:

Close, BigMedicine, if you read the transliteration of the Old Testament as it is in my Bible, which does indeed differ from the KJV and more modern translations, you will find that keeping the Sabbath holy does indeed mean that no form of work, or any aspect thereof i.e., the handling of money, shall be performed.
As to the "Thou shall not kill", the true and correct translation of the Hebrew "Lo Tirzackh", is "Thou shall not MURDER", Huge difference.
In the simplest of terms, killing, especially for self defense or the defense of innocents, killing as retribution, and killing of livestock for food are all acceptable forms of killing. Killing for the sake of killing, murder, is unacceptable at any time.
Ranger

ironglow · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2004, 01:22:13 PM »

Right Ranger;
The KJV says "Thou shalt not kill". This has caused some confusion...not generally on well studied students of the Bible . The New King James version corrects the wording by saying "You shall not murder". (Ex 20:13)

The only ones that seem to try to apply this phrase as "kill" are Liberals and "peace activists", most of whom know little or nothing about Bible, faith or God.

I have corrected many of those who try to misuse just that scripture.

For their information , killing in war is duty...murder, is when some terrorists take 49 or 50 unarmed captives and execute them face down on the ground...
Murder is when a bunch of cowards take an unarmed captive and saw his head off with a dull knife...

Friends; we are at war with a mass of murderers...

powderman · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2004, 03:35:59 PM »

NEW YORK HUNTER. You are to be commended for taking your family obligations seriously. You don't have to tell me about bills. My 94 car is nickle and diming me to death. I had bypass surgery just 13 1/2 months ago with no money or insurance, and still have no money or insurance. Bills up the wazoo, but I don't work Sundays period. Sunday work pays a bonus, but I felt it was no more than a sin offering and refused it.
My Dad said over 30 years ago that people just didn't take the time to live and enjoy life. He told of growing up and many, if not most, of the church going to the river after services. They'd spend the day fishing, eating, visiting, playing games, sleeping, and just plain old having fun.
I remember when the interstate hwy came through when I was a kid growing up in ILL. With them came the truck stops and 7 day work weeks. The first business to open on Sunday was a variety store, he couldn't take the chance that money might be spent elsewhere, greed. My Dad NEVER bought anything from that store again. That was in the late 50s and early 60s. I only knew of one mother who worked outside the home when I was growing up. Our Dads worked, and our mothers took care of the home and kids, a very good arrangement. I never even heard the term latchkey kid til I was well out of high school. Nobody suffered because the grocery store was closed on Sundays. Everybody prepared for that by stocking up on Saturday. Life was simpler then. God was important to folks then, and should be now.
God commanded throughout the Bible that no work, buying or selling, was to take place on the Sabbath, this is well documented throughout the old and new testaments. My question was, and is, what revelation, proof, or scripture have I missed that shows that God has changed his mind on this matter. Man has changed, but I've seen no evidence that God has.
Although this post was addressed to New York Hunter it was not really directed at him, but to the board in general. POWDERMAN.

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #15 on:** October 25, 2004, 07:08:32 AM »

Powderman and Ironglow, since you are both more educated than I in NT, I was wondering when the shift from Saturday worship to Sunday worship.
Was that related to the timing of the crucifixion ? I am relatively certain that Jesus, being a religious Jew, still worshiped on Saturday as the Sabbath.
It puzzles me how the seventh day being Saturday on common calendars as well as the original Sabbath moved to Sundays for Christians.
Thanks for the education.
Ranger

ironglow · « **Reply #16 on:** October 25, 2004, 03:33:48 PM »

Rifleranger;
You are right on in that supposition that it has to do with the crucifixion!
In the vast majority of Christian theology it is believed that Jesus did worship on the traditional Hebrew sabbath, but the day of worship started the day of Jesus' resurrection.
It is believed by us that God the Father finished his creation on the Sabbath but God the son (Jesus to us) finished his creation (resurrection; and thus providing salvation to mankind) on Sunday which we call "The Lord's day".

Knowledgeable Christians believe that Christ's resurrection was the one most important, most profound event in the NT...
That is why, contrary to some opinions, Easter Sunday is the most important holiday in the Christian calendar.

In the NT (John ch 5) we see that even Jesus did things on his Sabbath, such as healing people.

There are several instances where he was chided for "working" on the Sabbath..such as picking grain to eat.

If we are called to be "Christ-like", then certain things must be allowable...

Some sects of Christianity seem to dwell on "Sabbath day" pronounciations...they are welcome to do so, but most Christians disagree.

1) The Bible says that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday (after the Sabbath was over) Matt28:1, Mark16:1,and Luke24:1.

2) The early, apostolic church worshipped on the first day or Lord's Day..Acts20:7, I Cor16:2....

3) By the time John was writing his Revelations, the "Lord's Day" was already established. Rev1:10...

The majority of Christians believe that when Christ was resurrected, that put the seal on the plan of salvation and ensured satan's final defeat...

I won't get into theological discussions with others about these passages, I have already debated (successfully, I believe) with Seventh Day Adventists, and don't desire to enter into a lengthy, pointless debate now.

I will only say that if you believe in Christ and Sabbath Day worship...fine for you ...you're entitled to you freedom of belief ( 1st article; Bill of Rights). I say that in all respect and not in any spirit of antagonism...

Ranger; I hope this clears up some of your query and I respect your beliefs.

I quoted NT Bible verses in hopes that you may have one around to refer to but also so Christians can find the" Lord's Day" assuring verses

powderman · « **Reply #17 on:** October 25, 2004, 03:56:37 PM »

Lots of good points, but my question is still unanswerred. At what point in time did God decide that it was no longer necessary to keep the Sabbath Holy, and allow Sunday work? POWDERMAN. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

wareagleguy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 26, 2004, 08:48:09 AM »

I'm must ask...

How can the United States be the "Land of the Free" and not allow a store owner to open his business on a Sunday?

If a man wants to rest on Sunday go right ahead but just don't make me do it thank you very much.

Dali Llama · « **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2004, 01:18:51 PM »

Quote from: brdavis

I'm must ask...

How can the United States be the "Land of the Free" and not allow a store owner to open his business on a Sunday?

If a man wants to rest on Sunday go right ahead but just don't make me do it thank you very much.

Dali Llama say brdavis make some excellent points.

Dali Llama · « **Reply #20 on:** October 26, 2004, 01:21:46 PM »

Quote from: New York Hunter

Quote from: powderman
The real reason is greed.

Your right, I get paid "double time" on Sunday. I have a wife, three kids a mortgage and a lot of other bills to pay, so I'll take it when I can get it.

That be plight of many, say Dali Llama.

Leverdude · « **Reply #21 on:** October 26, 2004, 02:40:30 PM »

Seems to me alot of things church related have been relaxed in recent years to acomodate people who might otherwise find it inconvenient to worship. When was a kid you went to church on sunday - period. Now adays you can go saturday night & it counts for sunday. When I was a kid, if you wanted to receive communion you had to go to confession, now, acording to my pastor anyway, its not necessary because he gives you absolution before communion. I wont even attempt to support or debunk these changes which I find hard to accept as there are others here who's knowledge of religion & scripture far surpass my own.
Somewhere along the line religion seems to have turned into politics where the rules are changed to facilitate laziness & indifference.
I don't think God changed his mind I think people changed their thinking.
This is one of many reasons you will rarely see me in church anymore.
It seems to me to have become a far different thing than what it was intended to be & I choose not to be a part of something who's doctrine changes to suit those who cant be bothered to do things the way they were meant to be.
I believe in God & Jesus, I believe in the resurrection & in salvation for the faithful.
I believe God wants more than anything else for us to do the best we can to treat others with kindness & fairness.
He wants us to raise our children to believe in him & his son, to appreciate all he has given us & all he continues to give.
I believe he wants us to give thanks for these things for which we are largely unworthy & I believe he could care less if you worship in a Catholic church, a Methodist church, a Synagog, your living room or wherever. All he asks for is faith & a commitment to be the best Christian you can be, he does, after all know our limitations.
I pray where I see fit, as did the Apostles & Jesus himself. I give thanks for all the things he has blessed me with. I attempt to be fair & treat others as I would have them treat me, & I don't work on Sunday.
Not for money anyway, there always seems like theres something here needs doing tho & I believe God knows that I have to keep a roof over my head & will forgive me this small transgression.

marlinman93 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2004, 03:14:56 PM »

Well I'm all for it! I'd sure rather stay away from work on Sunday, but when the TV goes out, and there's no power in the homes, the folks who don't have to work, still call! I suppose I could remind them it's the Sabbath, but not sure most would listen.

powderman · « **Reply #23 on:** October 26, 2004, 03:51:49 PM »

LEVERDUDE. Excellent reply Sir. It is indeed man who has changed, not God.
BRDAVIS. Of course a store owner has the right to open his doors on Sunday, none of mans laws broken there. It's Gods laws of which I speak. Back in EXODUS the Israelites were commanded to gather the manna from Heaven 6 days a week, twice as much on the day before, because they were not allowed to work, or gather food, on the Sabbath. I've read the Bible completely through 3x + lots of just reading and have found no scripture that God has changed his mind.
This has been a good thread. I've waited for years to hear a sermon on this, and still haven't. I don't condemn anyone for working on Sunday, nor for not going to church. I don't believe that there is a perfect church, but I do believe that if your church always tells you what you want to hear, then you are in the wrong place. I know there are more comments out there, lets hear them. POWDERMAN.

wareagleguy · « **Reply #24 on:** October 26, 2004, 04:17:58 PM »

It's one thing to believe that one day a week should be a day of rest but to pass laws to enforce others to do the same is another issue.

powderman · « **Reply #25 on:** October 26, 2004, 04:49:34 PM »

BRDAVIS. I in no way meant to imply that laws should be enacted by man against Sunday work. Gods laws are the only ones that really matter. God gave us all free will to do good, or evil, right, or wrong. The choices are ours to make, we must choose wisely. POWDERMAN.

Dali Llama · « **Reply #26 on:** October 27, 2004, 01:53:19 AM »

Quote from: brdavis

It's one thing to believe that one day a week should be a day of rest but to pass laws to enforce others to do the same is another issue.

Dali Llama opine that yes, even honorable Pilgrims of yore would likely concur with brdavis.

powderman · « **Reply #27 on:** October 27, 2004, 02:25:46 AM »

The thought occurred to me last night that we seem to be somewhat divided on this issue so I'll pose another question.
Since some of you see Sunday as just another business day, what about Easter Sunday, or Christmas? Should walmart, kroger, etc, be allowed to require employees to work on these days? Those are 2 days that I would vote to make most businesses close. Some greedy businesses are open these days, no reason, just greed. It's pretty bad when a business can't even recognize the birth and ressurection of Christ. Christmas is the ONLY day that walmart is closed, but they open up at midnight Christmas night. Have to get ready for work, later. POWDERMAN.

wareagleguy · « **Reply #28 on:** October 27, 2004, 04:09:33 AM »

Forcing a person to work would be the same as passing laws to force someone to close business. If you don't want to work on Sunday just don't don't do it. That is what makes this country great!!!

A person can speak his/her mind but be prepared to face retribution from others that disagree. Refuse to work on Sunday but be prepared to face the retribution from a boss that wants you to work on Sunday. Freedoms are not exactly free from pain but we are still given that choice and that is what is important.

This is why I not only believe that Blue Laws are wrong it should be unconstitutional. The government can't say that it can't be playing religion in our schools but then in the other hand force citizens to observe a religious belief such as "The day of Rest."

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #29 on:** October 27, 2004, 04:47:45 AM »

My take is that organized religion has simply shown its true colors, that of a business.....
The powers that be really don't care wether or not you come to church, wether or not you worship one way or another, even what you believe and to what extent.
All they are interested is in your money these days, and that goes for all religions and all denominations.
Yes, they offer you a "spiritual home" if you could even call it that anymore, but for the most part, they want your donations.
"Sure we'd love to have you, but if you can't make it, that's OK, just don't forget to bring some cash on your next visit"........
It seems that the only businesses that should be open on the Sabbath is religious institutions.
Personally, I pray and offer thanks a dozen times a day if not more. I try to do the right thing and live my life properly. I know certain scriptures state that the door to heaven is not opened by deeds, but I believe in my heart of hearts that it is indeed opened by deeds.
Just my .03
Ranger