Author Topic: SUNDAY WORK? (Read 2549 times)

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #30 on:** October 27, 2004, 04:56:48 AM »

As a child when I was growing up in the 50s in rural America everything was closed on Sunday due to respect for religious beliefs not so much as a law. As I recall we never went hungry due to a store being closed or run out of gas in the vehicle because gas was bought on a Saturday. Things moved along at a much slower pace than it does today. In todays fast paced world it would be almost impossible to do this.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 27, 2004, 08:23:20 AM »

Quote

Lots of good points, but my question is still unanswerred. At what point in time did God decide that it was no longer necessary to keep the Sabbath Holy, and allow Sunday work? POWDERMAN.
_

There is a major difference in keeping the Sabbeth Holy and working on Sunday...one must keep the Sabbath holy to himself...Judge not least ye be judged....I came not into this world to judge...but thru me all shall be saved...the point of mine is this...no one group can put it's understandings or beliefs over mine... or..my faith..is just that...my faith...and only the Lord knows what's in my heart...and as long as you try to abide by Gods laws...over Mans laws...you'll be in Gods good gracies...while probably not mans...each must make his owns peace with the Father...each will stand accountable...what man said Sunday is the Sabbeth anyhow...you can have anyday be the Sabbeth in your heart.......and as long as you have the Lord in your heart and try to walk in his light...it will be alright....

Mac

Big Hext Finnigan · « **Reply #32 on:** October 27, 2004, 10:11:07 AM »

Howdy all,

Let's clarify a few issues here:
The commandment to keep the Sabbath holy was a part of the Judiac tradition. So to be consistent, the day specified would be Saturday. Furthermore, the prohibition of work also extended to travel, even lifesaving work was not allowed under the Pharisees. As you may recall that was one of the crimes that Jesus committed.

When asked Jesus said the two great commandments were to love God and love your neighbor, that these two make the new covenant. I also recall that when asked about the laws, Jesus said the laws were in place because our hearts were hard.

I think it's a difficult question to address, with the complications of modern life. I do agree that passing laws is foolish and just compounds the problem. It matters not if you follow the law, if you don't live it in your heart. Abortion, Blue laws or any other culturally conflicted area should be won by appeals to the heart and not the law. Let's use the transforming nature of prayer and the Holy Spirit to affect real change in the hearts of our enemies and our neighbors.

Vaya con Dios,

ironglow · « **Reply #33 on:** October 27, 2004, 01:42:52 PM »

BHF offered some good, down-to-earth wisdom..

Passing more "blue laws" will only lead to more conflict and little or no "convincing"..
We should not be confused between Sunday ( The Lord's Day) and the Sabbath, which is Saturday.

We live in a nation that is guided by it's Constitution and I thank God for that.

That Constitution says that the Congress shall pass no laws establishing a religion(one over another)...nor should it "prohibit the "free exercise thereof".

The progenitor of my own family was a contemporary and cohort of Roger Williams, founder of the Rhode Island colony, birthplace of religious freedom here...before there was a USA.

Rhode Island in that day had a population that included Jews and all stripe of Christian theology. Although Williams and my ancestor were staunch Baptists, the colony lived and worked in apparent harmony, judging by historical, court and family records.

It appears that today any disharmony is being stirred up by UNBELIEVERS.... those that don't believe in God and are fighting Him..

Let's not allow THEM to drive wedges between US...

Contrary to contemporary Liberal bilge...the patriarchs of this good old USA were almost, to a man, strong, Bible-believing Christians....

Nevertheless, they were wise enough to realize that for any young nation to succeed it had to be tolerant of other reasonable faiths.

I for instance, would not like to tell faithful Jews among us that they must observe our Lord's Day..

There is an area of 2 or 3 small towns in the next county that are heavily Seventh Day Adventists...so heavy that businesses there have traditionally open Sundays and those towns stone cold dead on Saturday.

I have often opined how, being a traditional (scriptural, as I see it) Christian...just how weird it would feel to live there, and understand how Jews may feel in a predominantly Christian society.
Yes, we Christians are the majority, but let's be a Christ-like majority...

It is our job, I believe, not to lobby for more blue laws, we won't get them anyway...

Rather, it is our job to evangelize and win hearts and souls over to the Lord's side.

Everyone has been provided by God, with a free will. What each does with that is their own chosen destiny...

We are not to club nor "legislate" unbelievers into the fold...
We give out the Gospel message and if they don't want it...we are to "shake the dust from our feet". (Matt10:12-14, Marl6:10-11, Luke9:4-5)

The best way for us, asI see it, is to convince by example..

If we don't agree with stores that are open on Sunday, we can refrain from patronizing them, and be vocal about it..

As for those stores that require employees to work on Sunday...they did before that employee hired on...Our "free will" ...choices...

powderman · « **Reply #34 on:** October 27, 2004, 02:18:09 PM »

I used Sunday as the Sabbath because it is probably the most widely recognized. I'm not proposing that laws be passed like the old blue laws, just looking for opinions from folks I consider my peers, and whose opinions I respect.
RIFLERANGER. I respect you too much to get into a discussion about deeds, because we do differ there.
Federal law says that no one can be forced to work on Sunday if you object on religious grounds, I'm sure that would apply to those who see Saturday as the Sabbath also.
I've learned a great deal about my friends here and have gained a lot of knowledge and respect for all. I in no way meant to judge anyone about Sunday work,that is beteween us and God. If I have ruffled any feathers, I appologize, because it was never my intent to judge or force my beliefs on anyone. I do believe that If it was wrong in Biblical times, it's wrong today. POWDERMAN. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Big Hext Finnigan · « **Reply #35 on:** October 27, 2004, 03:05:21 PM »

Quote from: powderman

I do believe that If it was wrong in Biblical times, it's wrong today. POWDERMAN. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Howdy,

Nice summary until this statement. I think you want to reconsider this one.. there are several prohibitions or allowances that have moved into the past. Like eating pork or speaking to women who are unclean or owning slaves. :wink: :wink:
God is big enough for His faith to follow and grow with the times.

Take care all,

powderman · « **Reply #36 on:** October 27, 2004, 03:23:54 PM »

BHF. What would make you think that God had changed his mind about keeping the Sabbath holy, or working on the Sabbath? Eating of pork is covered in the Bible as ok, slaves and treatment of women is just common sense. Man has created this hectic pace we live in, why would you think that God now approves? While I don't condone adopting the old blue laws, I would vote to abolish doing business on Christmas, and Easter Sunday. POWDERMAN.

big medicine · « **Reply #37 on:** October 27, 2004, 03:44:26 PM »

As far as Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, or any of the other holidays to many of us they are just another day. I have had one Thanksgiving off in the past 6 years. I have had Christmas off twice in the past 6 years I dont even care to count the others. I do not believe that God has any objections to the work I do on any of the days. Trust me I dont do the weekends or holidays by choice but I do them, I may not even be happy about doing them, and for that I hope God forgives me. The fact remains that the world we live in does not stop for one day. People are born, people die, people get sick, people get injured. For those people a slug of people have to work. Our small town Hospital has 3 of us that take call, do the math on that for one year. To support the 3 of us the hospital employes about 100 people, now figure for a big city ivory tower care facility. You have police, fire, rescue ect. Those vehicles need services, and fuel. those people need to eat. We have services that we enjoy 24/7 such as power, water, sewer ect. They dont run themselves. you could go on and on. for some people Sunday may be their only day off the whole week. That day is usually spent going to the store, getting gas ect ect. We live in a world where one thing supports the next. I cant even begin to tell you how many times I have had just a Sunday off and tried to fix something around the house, and not had the right part, or there was something else that was wrong when I got in to it. Thank God the Hardware store was open. One can call that greed if they wish, I call it service. We do not live in a time where we use the same water to drink that our neighbor just used as a toilet anymore. God gave us a brain, that brain has made life better, with that goes the responsibility that comes with those advances. It is no longer a 6 day a week world. For those that have a life that allows that I envy you. I still say that God is either in your heart or not. I believe his work is done everyday. I see Gods word as a living document much like our own constitution.

powderman · « **Reply #38 on:** October 27, 2004, 04:01:36 PM »

BIG MEDICINE. Good post Sir, thanks for your reply. Yours is a never ending, and necessary job. POWDERMAN.

NYH1 · « **Reply #39 on:** October 27, 2004, 04:02:54 PM »

Quote from: powderman

Federal law says that no one can be forced to work on Sunday if you object on religious grounds.

I don't know about that! Where I work we get "scheduled" on Sunday's all the time, it's a "UNION SHOP" too (with about 3500 employee's), if they can "schedule" you (charged you with a absents if you don't show up) on Sunday theres nothing the union can do to get you out of it. New York State law says they have to give you "24 hours of consecutive rest off" in a "state work week". The state work week starts Sunday at 12:00 am midnight and runs 168 consecutive hours through Saturday at 11:59 pm. If they make us work Sunday and we show up at least a 1/2 hour ( remember 24 hours of consecutive rest not 23 1/2) every day during the week, they can't make us work the following Saturday. If you don't work Sunday they can make you work 13 days before they have to give you a day off!
I know guys that have tried to use the "religious thing"and the bottom line is if they need the parts and can schedule you they will. Right or wrong thats the way todays world is!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 28, 2004, 06:15:28 AM »

Quote from: big medicine

Our small town Hospital has 3 of us that take call, do the math on that for one year. To support the 3 of us the hospital employes about 100 people, now figure for a big city ivory tower care facility. You have police, fire, rescue ect. Those vehicles need services, and fuel. those people need to eat. We have services that we enjoy 24/7 such as power, water, sewer ect. They dont run themselves. you could go on and on. for some people Sunday may be their only day off the whole week. That day is usually spent going to the store, getting gas ect ect. We live in a world where one thing supports the next..

It's funny you said this...I work for one of those Ivory Towers you speak of...#8 in the world to be exact here in St.Louis...and can tell you exactly how many support staff it takes to cover 6.5 Million square feet of realestate....and I work the second shift...and this force is reduced to almost nil on evening and further still on mid-nites...out of 110 folks on the mechanical end during the day...11 work evenings...6 work mid-nites...the same balance can be said for the rest of the "House" as well...including the Docs...most is left in the Fellows hands.....all in all though...I've been doing this for almost 30 years now...and Love it...tried my hand at a few other type jobs...and came back to what I knew...but...it is a city unto itself...never really sleeping...and the needs of our services never stops...I think the Lord knows this...and will forgive us.......

Mac

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #41 on:** October 28, 2004, 10:17:14 AM »

Quote from: powderman

I do believe that If it was wrong in Biblical times, it's wrong today. POWDERMAN. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Powderman, I respect you completely as well. We, IMHO, are all brothers who believe in the same Father / G-d, just in different ways about worshipping.
But, riddle me this, and anyone is free to chime in:
If it was sinful to eat pork, shellfish, etc., as commanded by G-d in the OT, and of the holidays that were celbrated than and are celebrated today, and with Jesus undoubtedly following these laws and celebrating these holidays, why do Christians eat pork and shellfish and not celebrate these holidays ??
These are just a couple of things that have always piqued my curiosity and I have never received one logical answer.
Thank you again, scholars:

naedlaen · « **Reply #42 on:** October 28, 2004, 11:18:22 AM »

RIFLERANGER,

In the New Testament, the apostle Peter had a dream where God told him to eat from an assortment of previously unclean items. He had this dream more than once.

The thing that the Holy Spirit was teaching Peter was that the Gentiles were every bit as important to God as the Jews, and should be told about the sacrifice that Jesus made for sinful mankind.

There are Christians that give up things that God has told them to give up. Not because the thing was in and of itself evil, but as an act of obedience to God. I knew a Pastor who has since passed from this world who gave up his horses, because he felt that God asked him to as the horses where coming between him and God.

The Amish leave apart from the world for God. They give up many items that most of the population take for granted. It is a daily reminder of their faith.

God wants to have a relationship with His children. How He asks us to honor that relationship can vary.

Traditions sometimes have lost the original meaning, but Christians believe that believing in Jesus as the Saviour, and living as He directs is all that is required to become a child of God and save us from our just reward as sinners. For by grace we have been saved, through faith.

Neal

powderman · « **Reply #43 on:** October 28, 2004, 03:23:22 PM »

RIFLERANGER. Naedlan got it. I remember the scripture but can not remember the prophet or where it is found, maybe Ironglow or someone else can give you chapter and verse. Gods message in the dream was two fold. As was said earlier, the gentiles were to be prophesied to as well as the Jews. It also said, if my memory serves me right, that from that day forward all that God gave for food was to be good. Pork and all other was now ok to eat. A good friend of mine forbids his family to eat pork, not because of the old testament, but because Jesus cast demons from a man , into a herd of swine and they killed themselves by running off a cliff. For him to eat pork would be a sin,because he believes it is. His wife cooked a big pork roast when he was supposed to be gone for a week, he came back early. He ate 3 helpings, she told him it was lamb. He told her to get to the store and get some more of it, she told him it was a one time sale. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #44 on:** October 28, 2004, 04:25:16 PM »

Although the story of the fellow inadvertently eating pork was humorus, I have to differ with the context.
I realize that the game was not played by yourself Powderman, you were only relating a known incident...but...I really would never try to "trick" anyone else into consuming something that their faith or principles forbade..

The text you were looking for...Acts 10:9-16

Blessings...

powderman · « **Reply #45 on:** October 28, 2004, 04:36:25 PM »

IRONGLOW. Her plan was to enjoy a good pork roast with her kids, she got caught. She told him it was lamb so he wouldn't get mad at her or punish them. She didn't set out to mislead her husband, she just got caught. Truth is, she fears him. Do you know where the text is we discussed? POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #46 on:** October 29, 2004, 02:13:33 AM »

Uh...huh...
Like caught with her hand in the "porkie" jar....LOL

As I noted in last post Acts 10:9-16

dave375hh · « **Reply #47 on:** October 29, 2004, 02:59:58 AM »

Powderman,
I sorry but I don't go to church to worship God once a week. I endever to do it every minute of every day. The idea that Sunday be set aside as the Sabbath was decided by preachers not God. When the bible said "on the seventh day he rested", There were no calanders, so what makes it Sunday?
Most of the traditions rules and customs we think of as religon today were handed down by preachers and or compliant heads of state. They serve only to support "Organized Religon" which, unfortunatly, is closer to organized crime than anyone likes to admit.
I don't need a multi-million dollar church to worship my God, because he lives in my heart and mind!

powderman · « **Reply #48 on:** October 29, 2004, 07:54:23 AM »

DAVE375hh. Good points, but not all churches are just about money. More than once we've had to remind our pastor that we need to take up the offerring. My church is small. 60-70 is average attendence. Many times we will top 100, the most was at Christmas at 123, we had to set chairs in the aisle. My church is like a family, anytime theres any sick or injured we ALL pray for them. After my heart surgery 14 months ago several of the ladies brought supper to the house for my wife and myself. They also helped with food and medicine, I had no insurance and still owe lots of bills from that surgery. Our choir consists of anybody that will get off their butt and sing. We have no schedule to follow like some churches, and there is no clock on the wall. We leave when God gets done with us. We are growing and have a building fund, but that will take many years. Theres another church 1/2 a mile away that you can set your watch by, the church doors open at exactly 12 noon as they leave. I spent 8 years there before I came to my church. After I heard the pastor preach the first time I looked at my wife and said, honey, we're home. We don't always hear what we want, but we hear what God wants us to hear. If church isn't your thing, nothing wrong with that,but there are a lot of good churches out there, don't let a bad experience sour you on all of Gods churches. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #49 on:** October 29, 2004, 03:04:32 PM »

Dave375,

I know full well how you are disappointed with your experiences with "organized religion". That very term is a term used only by the disaffected.
Yes, there are bummers in church organizations and in many ways it seems that the bigger the organization...the bigger the problems.

Some $20 bills are bogus...but do we refuse every one that comes our way...

I had walked away from churches at one time, after being brought up in a mainline, "social gospel" church.
About 30 years ago, God "jerked my chain" after a grievous injury to my eldest son.
I realized that I had strayed too far from God, and when a Bible-believing, Bible preaching pastor came my way. I accepted Christ as Savior and the whole thing opened up to me...as if the "scales had fallen from my eyes".

In the next few years I studied hard and in a large, independant, local church rapidly rose from Deacon to chairman of Deacons, head of Sunday studies, Adult Bible teacher and head of the board of education for the K-12 school.

I never "made a dime" from all that and never wanted to; just kept giving tithes and offerings..

I changed my address and am involved in a different church. I chose to attend this independant church. It is a church about the size of Powderman's 50-100 on any given week.
We are not concerned with having the most "awesome" choir...anyone who wishes can help to sing.
If some youngster is "pretty good" with the piano or organ, they will have a turn..

I am again in a position of authority (trustee, chosen by the people), when the Pastor is away, I preach the message...
Is there money involved? Not to be made by any of the leadership!

An independant local church is the key, since if the Preacher strays from the truth, THE PEOPLE can send him down the road...and there is no "district office" to deal with.

For instance; our Pastor of 20 years is a high school teacher ( Phd.,now retired), and drives about 50 miles round trip for services Sunday, Thursday and when ever needed for special events.
He is doing his service out of love for our Savior... How do I know for sure....
You don't know me or my church, so I can tell you this...I very often take collection and count the funds in cash and checks...our Pastor gives MUCH more to the church than he gets from it financially..
The beauty of a local, independant church is that we have business meetings where WE decide all our financial business...and nothing reaches beyond our local church other than the mission outreaches we sponsor.
I preach a message at a county nursing home nearby each 2nd Sunday and there is no pay, renumeration or anything else for me...other than the gratitude of being able to serve the Lord in a small way.
Shucks! Those folks couldn't pay a "widow's mite".

I and the lady that does the music are just joyful about serving the Lord.

One does not HAVE to attend church in order to worship God or learn about his word...but it sure helps!

#1..A person should be "saved" or "born again" in order to profitably study the Bible, since the Scriptures are "spiritually discerned".(ICor2:14)

You may hear some folks trying to denigrate "born again" Christians.
Actually, that is the only kind of Christian....don't take my word for it, read ...John 3:1-10...see for yourself...

This is one Bible truth that has been pretty well smothered by the big hierarchial church organizations and people that are mainly concerned with their "career progress"..
Sadly for them; it is the central teaching of the Bible..

I can only say that I tried to read the Bible before I was saved, but was frustrated to undrestand it. After i was saved, the whole Bible opened up to me...proof to me that being born again works...

Still, we have our "free will" and we are free to persue our aims...

powderman · « **Reply #50 on:** October 29, 2004, 04:08:24 PM »

A good friend of mine attends a big church, over 1800 members with 1200+ attending regularly. They have a 78 member orchestra, he plays in the band. We have lost some folks to bigger, fancier churches, most have come back. Some folks go to church to be seen by others, to convince others how holy they are, big and fancy kind of goes along with that. I'm not condemning those big fancy churches, but that seems to be the criteria for attending the RIGHT church, at least for some folks. I also believe that many, if not most, of the pastors in those big churches tell the people what they want to hear, instead of what God wants them to hear. There are only 2 kinds of churches. One is a meeting place for the saints, the other is a hospitol for sinners. I'm proud of being a member of our little clinic. POWDERMAN.

Dali Llama · « **Reply #51 on:** October 30, 2004, 04:40:50 AM »

Quote from: powderman

His wife cooked a big pork roast when he was supposed to be gone for a week, he came back early. He ate 3 helpings, she told him it was lamb. He told her to get to the store and get some more of it, she told him it was a one time sale.

Dali Llami opine that devout persons should also adhere to Ninth Commandment (Exodus 20:16), which sayeth "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."

powderman · « **Reply #52 on:** October 30, 2004, 01:50:28 PM »

dolly. If you actually have something to say, please do it in ADULT ENGLISH, I don't understand grammer school drivel. POWDERMAN. :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

Dali Llama · « **Reply #53 on:** October 31, 2004, 04:50:30 AM »

Quote from: powderman

dolly. If you actually have something to say, please do it in ADULT ENGLISH, I don't understand grammer school drivel. POWDERMAN.

Dali Llama say he think he express his point clearly and succinctly regarding Ninth Commandment. Dali add that he request that powderman please refrain from referring to Dali by erroneous, insulting name of "dolly." Dali say that he always refer to powerman by his chosen moniker, and Dali think it only reasonable that powderman should show same respect to Dali.

powderman · « **Reply #54 on:** October 31, 2004, 11:25:39 AM »

dolly. Bearing false witness means to lie, which I did not do, I related a real life experience.
For several days we have had a discussion on a subject near and dear to me. I've learned a great deal from, and about, my friends here. We put forth a lot of ideas concerning God and his wishes, and commands for us. I don't know why you felt it necessary to stir the pot, seems like thats what you do best. As far as respect goes, respect is not an automatic given thing, it must be earned, you certainly have not done that. I have no respect for those whose only purpose in life seems to be to cause dissent, divide and conquor.
I can see that our once friendly and informative discussion is over. Enjoy this thread, it's all yours now. POWDERMAN. :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

Dali Llama · « **Reply #55 on:** October 31, 2004, 01:14:54 PM »

Quote from: powderman

dolly. Bearing false witness means to lie, which I did not do, I related a real life experience.

Dali Llama say he observe that powderman for some unknown reason apparently feel that he must continually persist in referring to Dali by other than Dali's chosen name, despite repeated and reasonable pleas by Dali that powderman cease calling Dali by wrong name .

Regarding, bearing false witness, Dali say he never state or imply that powderman do so. Dali say that wife of friend of powderman bear false witness, not powderman.