Simple Guide to Handi Cast Bullet Success

[Leftoverdj]

Rule 1 -- Cast bullets for Handis/Marlins need to be well over nominal groove diameter. Bullets of .310 or .311 diameter will almost certainly give good results in the .30 calibers. The .357 may work with .359 but .360 is a better choice. 44s should be at least .431. Bullets for the .45-70 may work at .459, but .460 is more certain.

Rule 2 -- Pressures and velocities must match the bullet. Plain base bullets are best kept down around 1200 fps. This site gives excellent data for PB bullets in Marlin/NEF barrels. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
Gas check bullets will perform well to much higher velocities, but the higher velocities require harder alloys. Air cooled wheelweight with 2% tin added usually works well to around 1800 fps. Either of the 4198s or XMP 5744 work very well

Rule 3 -- Cast bullets must have a good lube. The NRA formula works. Liquid Alox works. The popular homebrew known as Felix or FWFL works. The very hard brightly colored lubes of the commercial casters mostly don't work.

Rule 4 -- Bullets with a lot more bearing surface than nose work. Bullets with a lot of nose or a very sharp nose are much tricker. Bullets that are normal weight for caliber or slightly heavier work.

Rule 5 -- Chamfer and flare your cases so you don't shave bullets seating them.

Rule 7 -- Cast bullets are best seated to touch or engrave on the rifling.

[MSP Ret]

DJ, I have had some success with 500 grain hardcast, lubed, bevel base, flat nose lead slugs (sized .459 - alloyed, unkown composition) behind 39.0 grains of IMR 3031. Good small groups at 50 yards but open up to about 3 inches at 100 yards. I don't have enough of those bullets to fool with and wanted to use them this year in Maine. Since I have never shot a deer in Maine over 40 yards I feel they will fine for this year. It is a stout load but not uncomfortable and shoots OK so it looks like my hunting load this year.
I have had great luck with the Hornady 350 grain RN (.459) behind 28.0 grains of 2400 for accuracy but have read that the bullet is made for the .458 Winchester Mag and might not open up well at lower velocities.
After reading the above I am thinking of loading a few of my 500 grain bullets behind 17.0 grains of 2400. Do you think that would be a suffiecient hunting load for 50 yards average and with the possibility of a 100 yard shot?....<><.... :grin:

[Woodbutcher]

Dear Leftover:
 As usual, when I see something with your name on it, nice work! Thank you. This entire site is a goldmine for learning!
 Would you please help a little further? Homebrew lube, NRA, Felix or FWFL, what are the formulas? Or where can I find them?
 Some experience with muzzleloading will teach that homebrew lube works fine, and has for many generations, and so, should work for cartridge arms as well...............Woodbutcher

[Mac11700]

Nice DJ.....I might add 1 little thing to it...get a Lyman "M" die for flaring...it much easier on the brass than most standard flaring/belling dies and the cost is very reasonable...usually around $12.00 from most suppliers...and the same for the Lee Factory crimp die...it works great as well....

In my limited experiance...as far a a commercial lube...I used Red Rooster with great success...and that was with the 38-357 loadings...44 special-44mag loads...and 30-30 loads...and a Lyman heated sizer...


Mac

[MSP Ret]

DJ, any thoughts or input on my above post and question? I would appreciate and value your opinions...Thanks....<><.... :grin:

[Leftoverdj]

MSP, your question hit all my weak points. I haven't used 2400 in the .45-70, nor 500 grain bullets, nor am I much of a hunter. My best guess is that your load is in the 1000-1100 fps range and will shoot through a deer from any angle. It won't give much in the way of shock. It'll kill a deer and trajectory won't be a problem, but I'd expect a short trailing job unless you hit major bone.

Junior uses 500 grain bullets at that velocity, but he casts his from pure lead.

Woodbutcher, just go to the cast bullet forum and run a search on lube recipes and Felix recipes. What you want is covered there. I tried to send you a PM on this but it's not working for me today.

[MSP Ret]

Thanks DJ, got to run now, headed off to a Red Sox party, my job is to pick up the Pizza and Buffalo Wings, I want the "HOT!!!" but the wives are going to be there so I guess it's medium,  GO SOX!!!....<><.... :grin:

[safetysheriff]

MSP'

I don't know if anyone else caught it, but you posted about 500 gr' bullets (seemingly for a .45-70) and about .359 diameter bullets (seemingly for a .357 even though weighing 350 gr's and designed for the .358 Win).    I may be missing something.    I'll post for a .45-70, therefore.      

FWIW: There is significant debate about the merits of cast bullets, and I shoot them myself.    I do so generally from a 'posted' position, picking my shot.    But I seriously believe that you'll get much better results using something like a jacketed Sierra 300 gr' HP/FN with part number 8900 in their Pro Hunter line.    It'll shoot flatter to the 100 yard line -- and it'll get there before you need your next hair cut!  :shock:     The expansion and the cutting action of the copper jacket is what will stop your deer quickly.  

With a minimal (?) amount of 2400 behind 500 grs' of lead I think you have a load that a deer might run away from -- though he will eventually die -- and you may not get to tag him.     A load like that will also have a fairly high mid-range trajectory.     It makes the estimates harder for holding properly.     And I agree that the 350 gr' load (maybe for a .458 Win mag'?) is too stout to open up on a deer.    

You know better than I do how big the deer are that far north.    Why take a chance on wounding a deer that will possibly die later without your tag?    Your chance at a trophy is worth more than that.

Take care,

SS'

[MSP Ret]

Sorry about that error SS, I will go back and correct it as soon as I finish this apology. The Hornady 350 grain jacketed RN I was loading for my 45-70 is in fact a .459, and you are correct, I had read that it performs best when pushed at .458 Win Mag velocities. It is however extremely accurate out of my 45-70 Handi in RP brass behind 28.0 grains of 2400. The 500 grain hard cast (sized and lubed at .459) is pretty accurate out of my 45-70 in RP brass behind 39 grains of 3031. It is a fairly stout load if recoil is an indicator, not uncomfortable but stout!!....<><.... :grin:
 (I went back and changed the 3's to 4's, makes more sense now, thanks for catching my typo...)

[Buffalogun]

Woodbutcher,

In my Handi 45-70, I use the Lee 405g HB(.459) cast at around 20/1, lubed with 50/50 Crisco/Beeswax and powered by 25g IMR SR4759. Velocity is around 1,450 fps. It is deadly and I haven't recovered a bullet, yet!

Buffalogun

[Leftoverdj]

You know better than I do how big the deer are that far north.    Why take a chance on wounding a deer that will possibly die later without your tag?    Your chance at a trophy is worth more than that.

Ain't them deer somewhat smaller than buffalo?

[MSP Ret]

I have gotten just one that dressed out over 200 lbs. but they get them that big every year. The ones that are really huge can get to dress out at 300 and over!!  They are rare though but they are out there....<><.... :grin:

[safetysheriff]

You know better than I do how big the deer are that far north.    Why take a chance on wounding a deer that will possibly die later without your tag?    Your chance at a trophy is worth more than that.

Ain't them deer somewhat smaller than buffalo?

Like you said, you aren't much of a hunter, leftovers!     Until you get more experience in it, or until you learn to trust some of the well-done printed material that is out there, you should leave it to the rest of us to discuss.    If you get to the point where you can learn from others -- from things they put in print -- then let me know.    I'll post a bibliography.    

If this is personal already, just say so!

You did better when you told that guy not to Improve a 26" barreled .280 Rem' but to do it in a 22" 7mm-08!      Remember?      (MORE NOISE, no more velocity!)

Give it a rest,

SS'

[safetysheriff]

I have gotten just one that dressed out over 200 lbs. but they get them that big every year. The ones that are really huge can get to dress out at 300 and over!!  They are rare though but they are out there....<><.... :grin:

MSP'

I believe that until recently, and maybe still it's true, that New England had the largest-bodied whitetail on record -- at over 400 lbs live weight.   That one was taken a long time ago.....but they still get Big up there.    I saw a picture of that old bruiser, incidentally.    It was an amazing deer for its length, even though its rack was not put into the books I don't believe.  

I'm only trying to say that you could be blessed with one in your neighborhood and you want to be equipped to take it.

'Drill' one for me,

SS'

[MSP Ret]

SS, I am sure the 500 grain hardcast flat point lead bullets I have loaded up in front of 39.0 grains of 3031 I will have enough energy and "shock" to take any Whitetail, Moose or Black Bear that Maine has to offer and set him right back on his haunches. It shoots nice small groups at 50 yards and about 3" groups at 100 yards. There is little drop at 100 and these loads are far and away more potent than the old buffalo hunters used and more than I really need for deer hunting. I was wondering about the energy of the 350 grain Hornady behind 28.0 grains of 2400 though. That load will not be used this year, at least not for deer. Thanks to the unfettered generosity of DJ there are some fine cast 405 HP's enroute to me which I will load up, shoot for group and try to harvest a deer or coyote with to let DJ know how they worked. I am sure the 500 grainers will flatten any northeast deer I am about to see, even up to 300 lbs dressed weight deer. (which would about equal the 400 lb live weight spoken of, since around here we usually figure about 1/3 of dressed weight added for live weight). Good Luck to all this season!!!....<><.... :grin:

[Trapper-Jack]

MSP Retired,

the 500 grain hardcast flat point lead bullets I have loaded up behind 39.0 grains of 3031

Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.  I always thought that the bullet went in frount of the powder! :shock:  

 Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :-D

[Leftoverdj]

Enlighten me, SS.

'Splain to me how them Maine deer are harder to kill than buffalo four times their size? 'Splain to me how a .45-70 is less adequate than your .357 carbine? 'Splain to me how ol' Elmer was wrong when he wrote about the virtues of slow moving heavy big caliber bullets for timber hunting elk over what he called "high velocity blowup bullets"? 'Splain to me how the .45-70 is less adequate than the .44-40 that the Maine hunting guides swore by? (The old black powder load, not the juiced up version.)

[MSP Ret]

It's OK Trapper-Jack, I deserved that for not proof reading my post, I'll change it for clarity....<><.... :oops:

[Mac11700]

Enlighten me, SS.

'Splain to me how them Maine deer are harder to kill than buffalo four times their size? 'Splain to me how a .45-70 is less adequate than your .357 carbine? 'Splain to me how ol' Elmer was wrong when he wrote about the virtues of slow moving heavy big caliber bullets for timber hunting elk over what he called "high velocity blowup bullets"? 'Splain to me how the .45-70 is less adequate than the .44-40 that the Maine hunting guides swore by? (The old black powder load, not the juiced up version.)

Don't the deer run and hide and the buffalo just stand there???...just kidding DJ  :wink:

Mac

[safetysheriff]

Enlighten me, SS.

'Splain to me how them Maine deer are harder to kill than buffalo four times their size? 'Splain to me how a .45-70 is less adequate than your .357 carbine? 'Splain to me how ol' Elmer was wrong when he wrote about the virtues of slow moving heavy big caliber bullets for timber hunting elk over what he called "high velocity blowup bullets"? 'Splain to me how the .45-70 is less adequate than the .44-40 that the Maine hunting guides swore by? (The old black powder load, not the juiced up version.)

leftovers,

No, i aint 'splainin' nothin to you; you have to do your own 'sperimentin'.   There aint no uther way to lern ya'.    You jes' go on a liv'n in yur' wurld wher deer don' run 'way wid 12 ga' slugs in 'em, etc.  liken dey do her in Ohio, same way dey do wid .45 slugggs klean thru 'em an' dey dies later on wid no tagg ons 'em.    Da' bigg ones, da' kin you aint nevr hunted, aint got no 'sperience wid -- dey aint lost fer gusto likke you is!    

Elmer used big lead for elk, we aren't talking elk, we're talking white tails that will actually run off, carrying bullets without shock many times.  Like you said, you aren't much of a hunter, and unless a bone is hit the deer will possibly run a long way.....unlike what you've said.    

Maine hunting guides with .44-40's in the old days?    When other guys weren't ready to tag your deer days?

MSP',

There isn't much, if any, (hydrostatic) shock from a slow-moving bullet.    A .22-250 with a good 60 gr' bullet will plant your 275 lb deer faster than will a .45-70 that doesn't open up -- because the .22 caliber shock wave will turn his lungs into one big blood clot!    I've seen that done with a .223!     That's why those .70 cal' Forster slugs in the .12 gauges are giving way to faster killing saboted hollow-points......because the slugs actually let a lot of deer die elsewhere.     And they moved out at 1600 fps' muzzle vel' in many instances.     It's your call, but it's the sharp pieces of copper jacket, and the fractured lead that breaks off with copper on it, that cuts up a deers lungs the best.    

If you want to shoot a good cast bullet out of a .45 cal' I'd suggest the hollow-pointed pure lead Maxi-Hunter from Thompson Center out of a muzzle loader.    Soft lead, and a hollow-point that will open up.    On the average it will do better on whitetails than the .45-70 hard-cast.

My honest opinions and observations.

SS'

[MSP Ret]

DJ, Thanks!!! The 405's came and I loaded a few up ahead of 20.0 grains of 2400 which should give me about 1100 fps. I shot them against to 500 grainers ahead of 39.0 grains of 3031. Their impact in relation to the "hot" 500 grainers was appx 2" higher at 50 yards and and about 4" lower at 100 yards. All in all a very favorable first outing with them. They group extremely well and I would think they would be a devastating round on a northeast whitetail. Now the quandary, which to use first, the 405 or the 500? I may use each according the the area I am hunting, either sitting and watching or still hunting the "greengrowth". Thanks for your generosity and wondering if you got my PM on the mold question? If so, any thoughts? No rush anyway, anytime in the next 6 months or so will be quicker than I could get to it....<><.... :grin:

Also many thanks to SS who added many of his own inciteful opinions to this thread about the game killing abilities of old fashioned and proven large, heavy, slow moving, flat nosed bullets vs. the itsy bitsy, teensy weensy bullet moving at warp speed controversy. Not many hunters in the area of Maine I do my rifle hunting in subscribe to the super fast warp speed theory. There are some "book learned" newer hunters that come up every year (mostly city folk) with some of the super fast magnums but they don't seem to last long in the area, it's more traditionalists who just poke around in the woods and come out every year with their 200 and 250 lb. deer after shooting them with 45-70's. .32 specials, 38-55's, 30-30's and such....these guys are hunters, not bench rest and velocity guys, some day I hope to be half the hunter these oldtimers are....<><.... :roll:

[Leftoverdj]

I'd say save the 405 HPs for days you are hunting heavy cover. Much past 50-60 yards, the likelihood of them opening goes down.

[mitchell]

hey ss don't most of those ohio deer fall to hunters shooting one big 1 once lead ball going about 1600 fps?i hate to be the one to brake it to ya but deer die fast when they drown in their own blood. just for the record can we hunters stop acting like it take a tank to kill a deer cleanly.  ss you yourself says your 223 with your hornady bullet will kill deer just fine if it can then why in the world is the 45-70 found lacking??? and wasn't it the 45-70 that was praised by buffalo hunters for making clean kills at long range??? come on guys their not armored cars they just deer.

[MSP Ret]

I as well as most here agree 100% with you mitchell....<><.... :grin:

And DJ, thanks for that suggestion as well as the bullets. I value your opinions and will do just that....<><.... :grin:

[mag41vance]

I'd say save the 405 HPs for days you are hunting heavy cover. Much past 50-60 yards, the likelihood of them opening goes down.

 That sounds as if it would make a dandy "squirrel  or Moose load". :shock:

[Mac11700]

Deer don't have to be hit with a freight train to go down...nor will they run when  1 or 1-1/4 oz of soft lead hit them moving out at 1550-1650 fps...all the way out to 100 yards...will if make a mess inside the deer...you betcha it will...took a real dandy 175lb. feild dressed 4 pointer with my 12 ga. Ultra Slug Hunter...and the original Lightfield Hybred slug...20 years ago...hit him at 87 yards and flipped him up and over some water reed grass about 6' high...sprayed blood everywhere...had a silver dollar size hole going in and a 5" hole coming out the opposite side...and lost part of both front shoulders due to blood shot meat...it was close to the shoulders...not thru it...now...I'm not a rocket scientist...just a Bldg Maintenance Engineer...but I do know great big chunks of soft lead kill deer quick...but from what I've seen of most of these deer that run of after being hit with one of these...isn't due to a soft slug failing...but usually to poor shot placement....or the buck/doe...being so wired out that they can run on adrenaline for several hundred yards unless spine hit...will the 45-70 work with soft cast bullets this way...truthfully...I don't know..they should...thus the reason for SS post on dual cast slugs...they could be the best way to go...or not....but I do know that if it's a hard cast bullet that pokes a.458 hole thru them...they probably won't act like they been hit with a 12 ga. slug...especially if that slug expands as much as mine did...but if it's a soft cast...it just may be similar...but then again..there would have to be trade offs in range and trajectory as well...have to think on it somemore... :wink:


Mac

Ok I thought about it for a little while..SS has a point...the old forster type slugs are giving way to the new Sabot...for a reason....accuracy...range...yes......terminal performance...well....maybe...depends on the load......you see...I've seen some of the newer styles fail...and it's really a design problem...those are the copper solids...either they completely failed to open are little to none...but that was a few years ago mind you...also some of the BRI slugs failed...as too some of the extreamly hard Brenekee's...seem when it opens and opens quickly enough and has enough behind it to drive on thru...deer...from what I've seen drop rather quickly...and one of the best prefoorming sabots so far is the Winchester's with the partiton bullet in it...I know a-lot of Illionois deer hunter(slug gun hunters) and this is what all of them use...it's kinda hard to knock sucess...but a $10.00 for 5 I sure can yell about it...but this has kinda gone full circle for me...I'm back to talking about a partiton bullet...which from my humble standpoint...is the best whitetail bullet for any 45-70...I just wish I could learn how to make some of those as cheap as the cast bullets... :roll:

Oh...1 last thing...

and wasn't it the 45-70 that was praised by buffalo hunters for making clean kills at long range???

Yes they were praising it's virtues's...however...in those days...you didn't have a bunch of folks so willing to steal from you...if you stole a mans harvested game...I quite sure you took your own life in your hands...cause he probably would track you down and shoot you...now..that wouldn't be such a bad thing today...when you loose your hard earned deer to some of the slobs out there...but I  don't think a jury would let you get away with it...

Mac

[safetysheriff]

All I'm trying to say is that a 'proper' jacketed bullet, impacting the game at a velocity that is proper for its design, will kill deer more quickly, including if they are adrenalin pumped.    I would think that with all the horror stories about deer going hundreds of yards -- and I've seen it with 12 ga' forster slugs on a deer shot full of holes -- that jacketed bullets would get the nod for such hunting.     I saw one deer darn near shot to pieces, a fair-sized buck here in Ohio, that went a LONG ways onto my family's farm, and I could have tagged it......but didn't want to get into a shoot-out over the whole thing.    They shot that deer on their side of the road, and they shot him across to our side of the road (illegal, of course shooting across the road!)    They shot him up the hams/butt, guts, and everywhere else except the central nervous system.    Somewhere else a hard-cast .45 cal' slug might get one of you the same thing.    Like Mac' said, they can run on adrenaline -- and that's the whole point.      But I've not seen one run 100 yds' -- yet -- that was properly hit with a decent jacketed bullet impacting at reasonable velocity......even when Very excited.  

I think that maybe, just maybe, Mac is giving a hint at how the jacketed (Nosler) is the best route.     Just don't shoot it at low velocity, making the mistake that Ross Seyfried did in the article I posted about.     And don't shoot the heaviest one they make, either.

No offense, group; just my experience and my understanding.  

SS'

[Mac11700]

SS:

Yes...I'm hinting at  my preference...and I do think out of the 45-70 the Nosler is a much better choice than a Hard casted bullet...for whitetails hunted hard...on public lands,where the hunters far out number the critters...I can only play the what if game on my 10 pointer I shot last year...within 3 minutes hunters where coming to the shot from 100 yards away where they had moved in on me...that's why I say I was extremly lucky I used the load I did...but...playing the what ifs game ...would I have been so lucky if I had used a hard cast bullet...my gut says no...that that 10 pointer would have had someone else tag on it...and ...it's a sad reality that there are those who go afield each year,diguised as hunters, do these things...you know...in retrospect of this great cartridge.....and all the reference to those buffalo hunters dropping so many Bisons with it..and how some cannot understand...the difference between today....and then...with the way we have to hunt..and the safegards we have to use to be successfull in even having a chance to harvest a really nice buck off of some of our public lands...those that don't have to hunt  this way...that are on their own property...either families...leased...or personal property...are so lucky that they don't have to put up with it...and they should give thanks everyday they don't....if I'm ever so lucky as to own my own hunting area...perhaps it would be a different story...but until then...I'll keep using the Noslers.....and I'll still be shooting different jacketed &  cast bullets as well to stay in practice...and to those who use cast bullets entirely for everything...I say go for it...if that's what you like...there's room for everyone here......

Mac

[safetysheriff]

Mac'

Now I've seen the posts that make sense out what I'm trying to help with.    Many of us do not have access to good, private land.    I only have it part of the year for deer hunting, and it isn't enough to hunt with a group of friends.     I've been trying to say for some time now here, and on the H&R site before, that public hunting is different -- and so is tracking a deer in bad territory.    The deer I spoke about above cut across our soybean field that year (when my dad still owned that farm several years ago) so it was visible to the butchers that shot it up so badly.     If it had been in brush when it crossed to our side -- they probably wouldn't have found it.    It had gone probably 300 yds' -- if not more -- from where it first was hit.

To each his own.    I'm just thinking about the 'fraternity of brothers' on this site who work for an animal -- but they don't want to hear it.

Thanks, Mac,

SS'

[mitchell]

humm maybe i should add on to what i said . i do think that a good jacked bullet is a much better choice then a cast bullet , but i still think that a big 400 grain cast bullet should kill a deer fast enough that you will not lose it to another hunter. now i've never killed a deer with a 45-70 but from what i've heard it does seem to be a stopper of a round. my logic is big whole in bigger whole out has got to equal a dead deer and pretty soon too. of all the deer i've shot (14)not one has gone over 60 yards and that includes bow kills, now if your hunting in a place with a hunter every 60 yards its time to find a new place to hunt .