Author Topic: What is enought (Read 1703 times)

pastorp · « **on:** October 23, 2004, 11:00:01 AM »

Hello all, Just something I have been thinking about. Wondered what your thoughts might be. If a 30/30 is considered marginal, by many, for medium to large game in a rifle; why would it be considered adequate in a handgun. You can name your favorite caliber in place of the 30/30 in many cases. Also the trend to bigger, faster calibers is it really necessary. Could it be we have bought into the industries advertising hype. Could it be every cartridge we really need was invented before the great depression. Just some thoughts from a guy that is growing older faster than he wants to. Regards, Byron

BlkHawk73 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 23, 2004, 11:16:49 AM »

I don't really believe the .30-30 is underpowered. Underrated, yes. This cartridge has proberly taken more game than any other centerfire cartridge. What I think is that in the era of "bigger, faster = better" everyone puts down cartridges that may not be the biggest, or fastest, or most powerful. The .30-30 has worked for a long, long time taking decent sized game. These animals haven't gotten any tougher. The shooter's egos have. Thus it takes the "magnum" to boost them. :wink:

myronman3 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2004, 12:43:54 PM »

Quote from: pastorp

Hello all, Just something I have been thinking about. Wondered what your thoughts might be. If a 30/30 is considered marginal, by many, for medium to large game in a rifle; why would it be considered adequate in a handgun. You can name your favorite caliber in place of the 30/30 in many cases. Also the trend to bigger, faster calibers is it really necessary. Could it be we have bought into the industries advertising hype. Could it be every cartridge we really need was invented before the great depression. Just some thoughts from a guy that is growing older faster than he wants to. Regards, Byron

well i think while you are close, maybe a little too early. if you say by the 1960's, i would agree. no cartridges created after that time frame gets me too excited.

as far as what is marginal and what isnt, us handgun hunters realize placement counts way more than anything else.

LMM · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2004, 01:43:44 PM »

A .30-30 is very adequate for a "HUNTER". A "SHOOTER" will ALWAYS need more gun. Some "HUNTERS" may prefer more gun but know it isn't necessary. Are you a "SHOOTER" or a "HUNTER"?

Just think about all the game taken in the 18th and 19th century with "hunting tools" far less powerful than the "GRAND OLE .30-30"!

Hunters know the importance of understanding ones own limitations as well as the firearm of choice. A hunter knows the importance of shot placement no matter what he is using.

A shooter THINKS the latest greatest wiz bang super short maximum magnum will kill the game he is pursuing so long as the bullet makes contact somewhere. :eek: :shock: :roll: :wink:

jhalcott · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2004, 02:05:46 PM »

Byron, many of todays "hunters" are too busy to learn how to hunt.Many think you will only get a shot at a game animal 4-500 yards away. I see them at the range TRYING to hit a gallon jug at 200 yards off the BENCH.
Most of them think they are shooting at 300 yards.Few can handle the big magnums they buy for one trip out west.2 weeks are about the longest they can get away from work,so they want to have every edge they can get.

BlkHawk73 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2004, 02:50:15 PM »

Quote from: LMM

A shooter THINKS the latest greatest wiz bang super short maximum magnum will kill the game he is pursuing so long as the bullet makes contact somewhere. :eek: :shock: :roll: :wink:

Excellant!

Very well put!

New Hampshire · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2004, 04:54:46 PM »

Ive been saying the same thing about the venerable 45/70 for quite a while. Hunters used to drop BUFFALO with the dang thing. But people still think they need more power. Heck they are even trying to mess with perfection by turning the 45/70 into a flame thrower. The bad side effect is a bruised shoulder or aching wrists. Heck, I was even just reading in the latest American Rifleman about the .257 H&H (7mm Mauser I believe) and how it was used extensively on elephants. The modern "experts" love to quantify everything with math, also. They tell me I cant kill a deer unless I have a projectile pushing 1200 ft/lbs :eek: . So they are basically telling me a .44 Mag is only good out to about 50 yards or a hair over. 45 colt....heck dont even bother. This is why I take everything the "experts" tell me with a grain of salt. The .30-30 has killed plenty of Moose and Bear, as well as everything smaller than that, up here in my neck of the woods.
Its all about good hits, not super power.
Brian M.

De41mag · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2004, 05:28:27 PM »

I can remember back in the 80's and early 90's the late Bob Milek wrote a lot of hunting articles for G&A, he would say that the old 30-30 was at best marginal for deer. Then a few issues later he would be hunting mule deer with a T/C Contender in the 30-30. Over the years I have come to the conculison that all gun magizine writers are just there for the big pay-off from the gun manufacturers, to make their products look good.
And the biggest two faced writer I've seen is Dick Metcaff, in ST's. If you read his articles you can catch him in a flip-flop almost from story to story.
I don't put ANY confidence in these guys. :evil:
You will learn more on this forum from these good fellas than any gun mag, I know I have. :wink:
Just my two cents.

Dennis

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2004, 08:19:23 PM »

Would you agree this was enough? By the way this is the ENTRANCE not the exit. Care to guess what made it before I spill the beans?

Old Griz · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2004, 09:00:41 PM »

:cb2: Well, since we're talking about the .30-30 that's gonna be my guess.

All of my hunting rifles are "old" cartridges: 6.5x55 Swede, .45-70, and .30-30. All over 100 years old. I got rid of my modern high powered stuffmeaning I gave my .308 to my brother. Never had any desire for any of those magnum big banger shoulder separaters. (With my tired old eyes, chances are, if the deer is outta range of these guns, I wouldn't see it anyway!) If I had to get rid of all but one, the .30-30 is the one I'd keep. As a matter of fact, my next purchase is going to be a Winchester 94 Legacy in .30-30. I think that every American shooter outta have a Winchester at least once in his life. It's just . . . an American thing to do!

45 WLN · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2004, 11:23:16 PM »

Would never guess to many variables to consider . Range, velocity bullet diameter, bullet construction, angle, etc, etc. may be a 223 or 475 or 600 nitro :grin: If in fact that was an entrance would hate to see the other side and would be worried if the bullet I was using was constructed properly for the game intended

Van/TX · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2004, 01:31:38 AM »

Good thread. Anyone who thinks a .30-30 is marginal (for big game) is either a writer for gun/hunting mags or one that believes everything they read. I know guys who wouldn't even consider taking a .30-30 (rifle) in the woods yet what they kill is mostly 100# whitetail at less than 75 yards (they can't hit anything further that that anyway) :lol: ......Van

jar-wv · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2004, 03:20:43 AM »

I'm guessing Graybeards animal was shot with a big bore handgun with a slow moving cast bullet. Is kinda hard to tell with nothing in the picture to scale the hole size with.

jar

Graybeard · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2004, 03:51:29 AM »

The animal isn't mine. It was shot by my friend Barry in PA during the early muzzle loader doe season. It is a mature doe shot at 56 yards with a .50 caliber TC Renegade using a .50 round ball pushed by 70 grains of black powder.

Now most seem to consider a round ball marginal also and his sure wasn't moving all that fast when it hit this doe. But she went down in her tracks and as you can see the damage was massive. Foot pounds of paper energy weren't even close to what the magazine writer pundits say is so necessary yet the damage you can see clearly indicates it did have all it needed and more.

So don't worry about what folks tell you is necessary. The old .30-30 is more than adequate for a hunter. If you're a long range plinker instead perhaps you'd be better served with a super duper party pooper but a hunter is well served by any of the big bore handguns or the old .30-30.

Old Griz · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2004, 07:26:37 AM »

:cb2: For those who don't think a .30-30 is enough gun . . . then go buy a .35 instead! :grin:

Flash · « **Reply #15 on:** October 24, 2004, 08:11:51 AM »

The 30/30 is probably responsible for harvesting more North American Big Game to date, then any other cartridge. The late 1800's seen many different calibers with up to a 140 grain powder charge but none withstood the test of time except the old 30/30 and not because it was inadequate.

rickyp · « **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2004, 01:03:23 PM »

i never seen a need for the north American hunter to need more then a 308 or 30-06. the 308 may not be the best round for the real big bears in Alaska but with good shot placement it will do the job

alot of people don't like to admit but there is a point at least with handguns.
you get to a point that more burned powder (bigger case) just makes more recoil and gives very little to no gain in power. out of a 15 inch barrel a 300 win mag will gain very little performance over a the same a 308 for the same length. You will get more recoil and a bigger muzzle blast ( unburned powder exiting the barrel)

mr.frosty · « **Reply #17 on:** October 24, 2004, 02:13:49 PM »

I got my second rifle when I was 17 got it for CHRISTmas it was a 30/30
that was over 20 years ago. In my area most hunters use a 270.30/06,
30/30 and 35's. I now own a 45/70 and a 300 wsm, and just what mood I
happen to be in is what rifle I take with me. For most part I will use the 30/30 or my 45/70 depending where I am hunting at the time. But for years the 30/30 was hard to beat and in my opinion still is.

jhalcott · « **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2004, 04:20:15 PM »

I have a problem with LEVER guns! Not 30-30 bullets.I have hunted so long with a bolt gun or single shot,I forget where the dang lever is.Sold a very nice Browning lever gun because I always tried to operate the bolt???Now a nice bolt action 30-30 would be a welcome CHRISTmas present!

Old Griz · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2004, 04:44:29 PM »

:cb2: As Paul Horning used to say . . . practice, practice, practice.

lonehunter · « **Reply #20 on:** October 25, 2004, 02:18:26 AM »

Graybread, I have never responded to a Forum before but when I read about your friend with the 50 cal muzzleloader I just had to respond. I to am in Pa. and I use a 54 T/C with 70 grains of FF and round ball. I shot a large doe that dressed 120lbs at about 80 yards quartering away from me. The ball entered between the last two ribs. nicked the spine and stopped have way up the neck. She dropped in her tracks. Most of the people up here think I'm nuts because I don't use at least 100 grains. Its nice to hear someone else does not use a heavy powder charge.

Greybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** October 25, 2004, 02:46:43 AM »

Glad to see we got you active in posting as well as reading. My friend reads but doesn't post himself so from time to time I post something he has passed onto me in his daily e-mails.

In this super magnum crazed world folks think it takes a super dooper magnum to kill everything. Back in the old times when everyone shot a flintlock what we now think of as squirrel rifles (the .32's and .36's) were used to successfully take deer with rb's and I'm sure can still. The deer are no tougher today than then. Folks just aren't as good at hunting and have become shooters instead.

Krazyhorse · « **Reply #22 on:** October 25, 2004, 06:18:25 AM »

I had to chime in on this one too. When I was younger I used to have a Marlin .30-30 and was always getting ribbed about needing to get a real gun and quit using a starter gun. I kept getting bigger and faster cartridge rifles until I decided to get my head out of my rear-end and got to thinking about what I really needed. I needed to work on my "hunting skills" and not worry about the stuff I was reading and hearing about bigger and better rifles. I ended up settling on the ol' .30-06, not as time tested as the .30-30 but it has been around plenty long enough and thru enough different situations to be proven. Since I didn't reload at the time I figured it would be my best bet, just in case an open field or right of way shot presented itself. Most of the places I hunt, a .30-30 would be better and a lot easier to handle. Hhhmmm...I may need to get me another one and Christmas is coming up pretty soon!

Rmouleart · « **Reply #23 on:** October 25, 2004, 08:28:54 AM »

Here's my two cents, the 30/30 is marginal for killing big game adequately, bottom of the barrel concerning todays active carts, Yes the 30/30 may of taken the most game, due to there was very few carts to pick from in the early days that were affordable or available, the 30/30 was the most common cart. I believe there is much better tools in the shed in todays times, even my 300 Savage is about the limit for me hunting big game, If your hunting big dangerous game like brown bear/griz, you tell me you would take your 30/30 and face a 1200pd bear with a bad attitude to boot, and you just look like lunch to him. If you would you need a wakeup call, not saying a properly constructed and placed bullet would not do the job, but would you want to be on the safer side and use something with more power, I would. There is certain carts for certain category's for hunting game animals, Id rather be on closer to the Maxim power band than the minimum end myself. Dead is dead right, shot placement will always be no#1, the rest comes after. I consider the 30/30 a good deer brush gun at best. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

myronman3 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 25, 2004, 11:16:02 AM »

Quote from: Rmouleart

If your hunting big dangerous game like brown bear/griz, you tell me you would take your 30/30 and face a 1200pd bear with a bad attitude to boot, and you just look like lunch to him.

the VAST majority of hunters dont hunt dangerous game. so why advocate carrying the biggest, baddest out there if you are hunting whitetails (or saber-toothed woodchucks)? the point is that is it's overkill past a certain point. besides, arent you the same guy who was going hunting with an airgun? i think you know the real deal and are just playing devil's advocate.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #25 on:** October 25, 2004, 01:56:44 PM »

I am looking around for a .36cal flinchlock to practice offhand shooting with, I figgure if I can learn how to hit with that thing anything else is cake.

WD45 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 26, 2004, 01:54:20 AM »

We all better run and get a 50 alaskan or something bigger .... You wouldnt want to be caught in the woods undergunned with those
sabre tooth woodchucks out there :shock: :eek:

Maybe an express rifle

TCShooter · « **Reply #27 on:** October 26, 2004, 04:06:58 AM »

Seeing how we have gotten off topic a bit anyway I also hunt with a 50 caliber muzzle loader and use two pirodex pellets and get razzed by a couple friends for not using three. My thought is that I have good groups at a hundred yards and heck...they never used to use 150 grains of powder in the "old days". And besides, I have taken a doe at 75 yards with that load and she dropped right there.

And while we are talking about overkill it gets me about all these bows out there that are being jacked up to 70lbs. or better. While he may be some what of a nut ol uncle Ted Nugent uses one with a 53# draw weight and look at some of the game he takes with it!

And lastly, I have a friend that owns a 454 casul, a 416 rem mag, a 375 H&H mag, and another large bore that I don't remember in a lever action. But when you see him hunting guess what he carries most.....a 6mm bench rest!

Go figure!

tripper · « **Reply #28 on:** October 26, 2004, 10:17:54 AM »

46 years ago I started out with a mod. 340 savage that my bro. left behind for me to use when he went in the military and that gun still has an honored place in the gun cabinet. Two years ago my daughter inlaw took her first deer (a 200lb buck) with that little 30-30 at about 75 yrds. The next day she took a doe at a little over 100 yds. and a small buck we drove out to her. This year I told her she had to give it up to the grandson and she cried so much my grandson agreed to carry the 30-06 enfield I rebuilt. There is nothing in MN that I would be worried about shooting with it and I doubt I will ever be fournate enough to ever hunt big game in another state. I normaly carry nothing but my trusty 14" 7-30.
My feelings ar that if you can't go to the range and comfortly shoot a box of hunting loads you over gunning yourself.

Old Griz · « **Reply #29 on:** October 26, 2004, 01:08:11 PM »

:cb2: Not much dangerous game here in Tennessee. Dangerous hunters maybe, but not game. Therefore, I guess the .30-30 will do quite nicely. However, I we get news that a (real) griz, brownie, polar bear, or one of those saber-toothed woodchucks is in the neighborhood, I'll stay indoors and keep watch with the .45-70.

Another old fart I teach with grew up in Alaska, and killed his first moose when he was 14 with a .30-30. I guess he was too young and ignorant to know it wasn't enough gun.