Deer Hunting With .410 SLUGS?

[Gowge]

Lookin' over this forum, I thought this topic might come up and wanted to share from a thread on the NEF/H&R Forum...   One of the members wrote the following and I offered the response below.

I recently had knee surgery and find it difficult  to tote my 20 or 12 ga shotgun for deer hunting.
I thought I might try my H&R single shot 410 with a 1/4oz slug.(I can't climb a tree stand because of the knee so I will have to still hunt or set up ambush spots on the ground

ANYONE HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE/OPINIONS ABOUT THIS? :?
Any other advice?

I have an opinion, and some suggestions...

Like the other guys who suggested it's not ethical or practical, I agree 100%.   The sights on a 410 are not adequate to shoot much past 40 yards, and the teeny little (factory) slug just doesn't have much power at all.  

This said, it's possible to HANDLOAD some very effective slugs that WILL KILL a DEER with NO problem.    

With the right CHOKE - or even lack of a choke, you can use CAST  hollow based pistol bullets made for the old 41 Long Colt.   These bullets are NOT 41 caliber or even close to .410 slug diameter, being well under .400" diameter.  What is so good about them, is they're available in a practical and useful weight range from about 180gr to 200gr+ that corresponds shot loads for a .410 - we're talkin' 1/2oz to over 5/8oz.    ANY shot load recipe that's safe to shoot in a 410 is also safe with a slug of the same weight, other components being the same.   WE have learned that solid slugs of the same weight as shot - and especially buffered shot, produces a much lower pressure peak than most realize.  

Full Choke =.015 - .395" Bore
Extra Full = .021 - .389" Bore




ABOVE:  180gr ~ .387" diameter hollow base bullet

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/heelbullets.htm

The article on the link above describes some of the 41 Colt bullets and loading techniques for revolvers.    IF you have any ideas about deer  hunting with a 410 shotgun, you should investigate having someone custom load a few slugs for you to try out.    

Here's a link to a website that shows how easy it is to load 410 slugs in plastic hulls yourself.  

http://dougs410slugs.wxs.org/

I don't advocate using the tiny slugs shown on this page - the 41 Colt  bullets would be far more useful IMHO.  

http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/suppliers.html

The link above lists some 410 Shotgun Resources & Suppliers - Ballistic Products has all the components you need to load your own and will be pleased to send you a new catalog of their products.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/410.php

Alliant offers a dedicated 410 powder on the link above, but they only list loads for skeet or target shooting - not really useful...

For something interesting, check the loads on this link below and then compare that 14.5gr of 2400 powder to a known rifle or pistol cartridge shooting a similar weight bullet...   Pressures in a 410 don't top 13000psi according to Alliant.   It would be even less with a slug instead of a heavy shot load.

http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=shotgun&step=1&_function2=setJavascriptFlag&gauge=410&guntypeID=

Just my opinion, but a 410 with a stiff (hand)load, shooting a 1/2oz slug can push along at a velocity from a smoothbore barrel that will surprise a whole lot of people.    It's still a smoothbore and not really accurate beyond about 40-50 yards, but the power it can generate will impress.

It's also very possible to load slugs into metallic cartridges to shoot in your .410 shotgun.   Both brass and steel cased ammo is available.  http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/cart.html

You can also make your own brass cases from 303 British, 444 Marlin, and 9.3x74R rifle cases.  http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

GOOD LUCK!    

http://www.huntingtons.com/Bullet-WhiteHorse.html

http://missoula.bigsky.net/western/cbip/b41l.html

[brown-trout]

....even the most lethal 410 load pales in comparison to a 20 gauge load.
Hands down, no doubt about it.
If a kid wants to hunt deer , start him or her with a 20.
Too much recoil you say?
You can modify the gun to lessen recoil or go to a gas op'd 11-87 or the like.
Brennekes 3" magnum 410 has 781 ft/lbs at the muzzle & 352 at 50.....
Remington's 2 3/4" standard load has 835 at 100 yards.
============================================
If the kid cant handle  a standard slug loading in a gas-op shotgun, then I suggest waiting another year or two......we owe it to the animal, as long gone are the days where if we go home empty handed, we go home hungry.

bt

[K2]

True but all deer are not created equally.  Gowge is from Florida and the deer there are about the size of a small German Shepard.  The load he describes is more than adequate at short range on those deer.  The most important part of any gun/bullet combination is of course shot placement for which even the most powerful loads cannot make up for being a bad shot.  

The last 40 years has seen huge strides in more powerful and farther shooting equipment yet marksmanship has not seen the same strides.  Better an old 30-06 in the hands of a marksman than the latest super duper magnum in the hands of a tyro.  

....even the most lethal 410 load pales in comparison to a 20 gauge load.
Hands down, no doubt about it.
If a kid wants to hunt deer , start him or her with a 20.
Too much recoil you say?
You can modify the gun to lessen recoil or go to a gas op'd 11-87 or the like.
Brennekes 3" magnum 410 has 781 ft/lbs at the muzzle & 352 at 50.....
Remington's 2 3/4" standard load has 835 at 100 yards.
============================================
If the kid cant handle  a standard slug loading in a gas-op shotgun, then I suggest waiting another year or two......we owe it to the animal, as long gone are the days where if we go home empty handed, we go home hungry.

bt

[brown-trout]

I have to agree with you on one point ,and firmly disagree with you on another....

I agree with you on the point of proper bullet placement.....my CF rifle of choice is not a 30-06 , 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag nor anything hotter...its a 270 Winchester bolt action.....has anchored 2 elk and several deer...all on the first and only shot.  My dad's win 94 30-30 also worked wonders in its day....I never heard him complain about it.
That having been said, I think we owe it to the animal to use a sufficient gun/ammo combination to reliably and consistently do the job.   I do not believe the 410 is up to the job if one uses the criteria of reliably and consistently.   There is no reason to not use a 20 gauge...my 10 year old daughter (average sized 5th grade girl) uses one to hunt squirrel with me and she will use a 20 to go deer hunting with me in November.  The 410 , using any set of "theoretical" number crunching just aint in the same league as the 20.
My advocation of the 20 is not in the same vein as the recent surge in mega magnum firearms (300WSM, 300 RUM, etc.....)...if it were, Id have said nothing short of a 12 gauge loaded with 3" Win Partition Golds would do, but we both know that isnt the case.
BT

[huntsman]

1/4" .410 guage 3" magnum slugs are a little bit better in velocity and energy than the 110 grain JHP .357 magnum fired from a 6" revolver (same weight projectile). Not an ideal round for deer, but it certainly would kill one within about a 50 yard max range. Limiting shots to 40 yards or less, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on deer, especially if it means a youngster is comfortable and confident shooting it, rather than intimidated by the 20 gauge. Be prepared to work with no blood trail after the hit, but a deer hit well with this round would not normally go too far.

[brown-trout]

to compare the 410 and 357 mag ( 110 gr) and then determine that the 410 is adequate for deer is an invalid argument.

First, the 357 magnum , with a 110 grain bullet , is entirely inappropriate for deer.  That bullet is marketed as a self defense round in short barreled revolvers.   If one chooses the 357 for deer, 180 grain JSP or hard cast bullets are what is called for.  To compare the 410 to the 110 grain 357  is a moot point: both are inappropriate for deer.

Second, the projectile on most, if not nearly all, 410 slug shells is a soft cast foster slug.   357  hunting bullets are jacketed or hard cast for much better penetration , retained weight and bullet integrity. The sectional density is also heavily tilted towards favoring the 357 in those hunting loads.  Many also utilize a bonded core construction, to improve bullet integrity.  Even the 'hardest' brenneke slug is still soft enough to squeeze through a fully choked muzzle...just ask  their lawyers.
bt

[Gowge]

There's some rifle loads with the .357 and heavy (180gr) bullets using the same powder charge - 14.5gr * 2400 that produces impressive performance with a 180gr bullet.    In the .357, it's definitely a deer hunting load.  Here's the load for information.

WIN/94 RIFLE 24" 14.5/2400 180 CB FN GC 38 SPC/R PRM 1835V/1346 M.E.

WIN/94 RIFLE 24" 14.5/2400 180 CB FN PB 38 SPC/R PRM 1935V/1496 M.E.

The author had to use .38spl cases in the Win 94 for the rounds to function in the action 'cos the bullets are so long...  

What if we take the same load with the hollow base 41 Long Colt bullets described above and used it in a 410 shotgun?   Do you think the smoothbore would come anywhere close to the same performance as the .38spl?    Mind you, the load I'm using for comparison is listed as a safe load behind a heavier load of shot by Alliant on the link I posted...  

What do you think?   Should a handloader consider using this combination in a brass shell only?   Your opinions are welcome.

THANKS!  

[huntsman]

Anyone who thinks a 110 grain projectile of between .25" and .5" diameter made of lead (soft, hard, jacketed, whatever) traveling at 1200 + fps will not penetrate and do fatal damage to a whitetailed deer with a decently-placed shot in the boiler room is living in a fantasy world.

Ideal? Certainly not. Marginal? Yes. Adequate? Definitely. It's been done before. It likely won't blow through and leave an exit wound if it hits any bone. It won't knock the deer off its feet. But it will kill the deer humanely.

Don't try it at over 50 yards, the velocity is too slow. Don't try to shoot through shoulder bones, it won't penetrate. Broadside through the ribs and into the lungs or heart will kill cleanly inside 50 yards.

Sure, given my own choice, I would much rather carry the 20 guage or better. But I remember how intimidating the "big guns" were when I was just a little kid. I would rather see a kid get a good, steady shot with the .410 than a shaky, flinched shot with a 20 gauge. JMHO

[K2]

Too many variables for a definite answer one way or another.  If distance is kept short and accurate shot placement can be done by the youth, and you are dealing with smallish southern whitetails then the load described will do the job.  

From my personal experience I don't take sub teens big game hunting period.  Small game is plenty adequate to keep them interested, gain good field experience and learn to shoot well.  It is pretty easy to shoot a deer sized target if you have been used to shooting squirrels and such ;~)  There seems to be a push lately to get little ones into big game early and therefore the search for extremely light recoiling loads/gun combinations.  Usually a few years handles the issue more satisfactorly.  

Now this is not intended to insight a riot from those who have successfully taken their 3 or 4 year olds on trophy elk hunts etc. but lets admit it this would be rare indeed ;~)  Let em grow up, then go big game hunting.

I have to agree with you on one point ,and firmly disagree with you on another....

I agree with you on the point of proper bullet placement.....my CF rifle of choice is not a 30-06 , 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag nor anything hotter...its a 270 Winchester bolt action.....has anchored 2 elk and several deer...all on the first and only shot.  My dad's win 94 30-30 also worked wonders in its day....I never heard him complain about it.
That having been said, I think we owe it to the animal to use a sufficient gun/ammo combination to reliably and consistently do the job.   I do not believe the 410 is up to the job if one uses the criteria of reliably and consistently.   There is no reason to not use a 20 gauge...my 10 year old daughter (average sized 5th grade girl) uses one to hunt squirrel with me and she will use a 20 to go deer hunting with me in November.  The 410 , using any set of "theoretical" number crunching just aint in the same league as the 20.
My advocation of the 20 is not in the same vein as the recent surge in mega magnum firearms (300WSM, 300 RUM, etc.....)...if it were, Id have said nothing short of a 12 gauge loaded with 3" Win Partition Golds would do, but we both know that isnt the case.
BT

[Gowge]

Just for comparison from a current thread in the H&R-NEF Forum, here's a good picture showing the 12ga, 20ga, and 410 Pardners arranged so you can see the size of the receivers & barrels.   The NEF 410 is built pretty stout!  Looks to me like the same action as on the others...  I don't doubt it could handle some pretty stiff SLUG handloads in BRASS shells as described above.

Whatcha' think?

GOOD LUCK!  

[mrlizzzard]

I thought the .410 3" was the hardest hitting gauge by weight ,I think a NEF .410 would make a great slug gun for a small hunter and what a dream to carry.In Ohio it's mostly a 40,50 yd shot.Can you buy slugs in 410?

[ilv2hnt]

I have seen firt hand what a 410 slug will do at about 30 yards.  My son shot a nice 6-pointer (his first buck and 3rd deer) with a tc contender carbine 21" barrel at about 30 yards, he is a very responsible hunter and an excellent shot whether at 100 or 15 yards, I would  not hesitate to have him shoot out to 200 with a solid rest.

   This particular buck came in on him at 50 yards the first itme we hunted chasing does, I stopped him 3 times grunting, he was either behind a limb or another deer behind him, and my son being very anxious to kill his first buck, made the decision not to shoot but to let hm go. That day he was hunting with a 7 tcu 21" contender.  The next time we went we took the 410 and the 7 tcu.  He popped up at about 30 yards quartering toward us and since we had been over many photos and talked a lot about this shot I let him take it and he drilled it through the base of the neck,  busting the off shoulder and the slug was under the skin on the other side.

The buck folded its rear legs up and hit butt first, knocking a hole in the ground as he hit and no kicking or anything, dead before he hit the ground,  and the shot placement couldn't have been better as it broke its neck and continued through the shoulder, even though it was toward the rear of the shoulder through the thin part of the bone.

If you think that  a 410 slug is not lethal at short and I do emphasize short distances, then I think maybe you ought to do a little research instead of downing everybody elses opinions on this .  But again this is my OPINION, but I have proof behind mine.

My son took his first squirrel, first turkey, and first buck with the same barrel, now that is somethng special to him and me.

Oh and yes the slug was still intact, but there wasn't much left of it, he has it taped on the back of the plaque his FIRST BUCK is mounted on :shock:    :-D

I think the most important thing with a young hunter is them using a gun that they have done some powder burning in and are extremely comfortable shooting, my son asked me to take the 410 this instance, he had never asked before , but I did have some slugs for it and he had shot them and we knew that after 50 yards they actually started dropping pretty quick (like an inch every 10 yards)

[Graybeard]

Gowge, you have asked for e-mail notice of all new replies to this thread. BUT you have an invalid e-mail address on file. On top of that the invalid e-mail address is with Earthlink so e-mails would probably bounce even if it was valid.

You have 48 hours to fix this and get a valid e-mail address on file.

... while talking to mx8.earthlink.net.:
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