Author Topic: Pointed .458 bullets? (Read 3468 times)

throttleman · « **on:** October 26, 2004, 02:50:07 AM »

Does anyone know of a manufacturer who makes pointed .458 caliber bullets. I have a T/C Contender in .45-70 which could use them. I would like to be able to stretch the range a bit. Any information is welcome. Thanks.

captainkirk · « **Reply #1 on:** October 26, 2004, 03:34:24 AM »

There are at least two companies making such bullets. Northern precision and Alpha La Franck. There is an article in an older Shooting Times discussing the use of both of them with sample loads for the Contender, Marlin and Ruger #1. I'll try and find it tonight to give you the date of the article. I found a link of bullet makers here:

http://www.shooting-hunting.com/results.html?Keywords=Projectiles&FoundID=0

Both companies are listed within the (several) pages but do not have web addresses. Phone #s are included I think.

Good shootin'

captainkirk

VFR · « **Reply #2 on:** October 26, 2004, 03:45:46 AM »

Barnes X??

Sean · « **Reply #3 on:** October 26, 2004, 05:46:18 AM »

Barnes does make spitzer .458 dia bullets but how much you would "stretch" your range I don't know. It is doubtful (to me) that you gain enough to justify their use. It's kind of like Hornady's new spitzer bullet for the .405 Win. I prefer the flat faces for the shock effect. Sean

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 26, 2004, 08:09:12 AM »

Another factor to take into consideration is bullet performance at .45-70 velocities, if they are built to perform at level 3 velocities, they may not perform as desired at level 2 velocities. Granted, there is some overlap between upper level 2 and lower level 3, just something to think about before making the investment in premium bullets. Been there, done it! :oops:

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** October 26, 2004, 08:29:29 AM »

What you are about to under take is an exercise in futility. Don't waste your time and money. You will gain NOTHING.

Inside of 250 yards the difference between a flat or round nose bullet and a spitzer is negligible. Absolutely nothing will be gained inside of 250 yards. You cannot make a 250 yard shooter of the .45-70. It just isn't not one. So use a bullet proper for the velocity range of the round and make the best of what it is. Or buy something more suitable. What it is however is a 150 yard hammer. Accept that.

Lawdog · « **Reply #6 on:** October 26, 2004, 11:57:27 AM »

throttleman,

Graybeard is right. Out of a short barreled T/C Contender(anything under 22" is short in my book) you will gain nothing. Yes the Barnes bullets will work as I use them in both of my .450 Marlins(the modern version of the .45-70) and my .450 Rigby. Out of these rifles they will give you the advantage of flatter trajectory over flat nose bullets but only beyond 175 or so yards. Lawdog

snowdog · « **Reply #7 on:** October 26, 2004, 02:31:01 PM »

THANK You Greybeard. Someone needed to mention that. Know
what your getting when you buy the 45/70. to try an stretch out
this round to 250 or more yards is almost unethical. if you wanted
more range just go grab yourself .338 mag. I knew what I was
getting into with my 1895 cowboy. ....405 grn bullets going 1500 FPS.
or as I currently shoot 350 grn hornady FN going at 1800 FPS. Yep
its slow.... and the trajectory of a rainbow. But I like it!

throttleman · « **Reply #8 on:** October 26, 2004, 04:49:45 PM »

Thank you all for the insight. I do like the .45-70 for what it is, but I still believe it's performance can be altered some. For instance, the 250 grain "X" bullet will shoot much flatter than say a 405 sp, and this is what I was getting at. Most of my shots will be within 70 yards, but it would be nice to know that I can hold dead on out to 130-140, rather than having to hold high if a shot is presented at that range. As far as I know, the 250 grain "X" is still a flat point, but that will probably work fine for whitetails. .Just looking for suggestions and opinions and that's what I got. It is really cool to have access to so much experience and knowledge. Thank you all. :-)

pc · « **Reply #9 on:** October 27, 2004, 01:59:51 AM »

Woodleigh make a 400 gr protected point....might be of interest to you.

snowdog · « **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2004, 03:16:13 AM »

throttleman, if your wanting to reach out to 150 yards, ANY of the
flat or round nose bullets will do the job. my 350 hornday FN are
2 inches high at 100 and about dead on at 150. I don't think
your wrong to want to reach out more, but when you shoot the
45/70 in a different manner that what it was intended for, it takes
out the fun of what the gun is all about IMHO. I must admit, I am
curious as to what you come up with. Good luck to ya.

Questor · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2004, 03:55:48 AM »

I guess I'll never be a diplomat. My opinion is that pointed 458s are an abomination. Round nose and flat nose bullets are the only bullets to use in a 458 caliber hunting gun.

throttleman · « **Reply #12 on:** October 27, 2004, 04:05:47 AM »

Thanks again fellas. Keep those thoughts coming.

Lawdog · « **Reply #13 on:** October 27, 2004, 08:49:02 AM »

Questor,

Quote

My opinion is that pointed 458s are an abomination. Round nose and flat nose bullets are the only bullets to use in a 458 caliber hunting gun.

WHY??? Lawdog
:roll:

captainkirk · « **Reply #14 on:** October 27, 2004, 10:50:41 AM »

Quote from: Lawdog

Questor,

Quote
My opinion is that pointed 458s are an abomination. Round nose and flat nose bullets are the only bullets to use in a 458 caliber hunting gun.

WHY??? Lawdog
:roll:

If I may, I think the spirit of what Questor is expressing can be thought of like a 7 mag or a 257 WBY with flat nosed bullets... It looks just as odd to have a straight walled case terminate in a spire-point.

Just my opinion though.

captainkirk

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2004, 06:05:26 PM »

http://www.northforkbullets.com/bullets.htm

BS · « **Reply #16 on:** November 02, 2004, 12:54:45 PM »

Throttleman,

Barnes made some SEMI-SPITZER SP for the 45-70 in 300 grains. Product # is 457010

I think they also made some in 400s.

BS · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2004, 12:58:37 PM »

Throttleman,

Just did a search for Barnes 457010 and found them out of stock at Midway, but they have a nice picture!

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/635838

Bandito · « **Reply #18 on:** November 03, 2004, 01:27:16 PM »

Call Bill Noody at Northern Precision. He can swage almost anything you might want. Good shootin 'Dito :wink:

eroyd · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2004, 07:55:03 AM »

I shoot Barnes' Original 400 grain, .458 semi-spitzer out of my modern version Browning Single shot falling block B-78 in 45-70.

The bullet has a ballistic co. of just under 400! It leaves my barrel at @2150 fps.

Zero'd at 200 yards, it hits 4" high at 100yds and 17" low at 300 and delivers substantial energy when it gets there. Recoil is fairly heavy depending on your tolerance.

Accuracy in my rifle is very impressive. .625" group at 100yds (see pic), 1.25" at 200. I only fired two rounds at 300yds and they were within 2".

I wouldn't hesitate or think it unethical to use this load at 300yds on large game.

Johnly · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2004, 11:40:43 AM »

I shoot the 450 gr. Barnes Spitzers in my long throated 45-70 Encore rifle. The recoil is brutal!!! But sight it in 2" high at 100 yards and it's point and shoot out to 200 without a problem.

John in Oregon

Quote from: eroyd

I shoot Barnes' Original 400 grain, .458 semi-spitzer out of my modern version Browning Single shot falling block B-78 in 45-70.

The bullet has a ballistic co. of just under 400! It leaves my barrel at @2150 fps.

Zero'd at 200 yards, it hits 4" high at 100yds and 17" low at 300 and delivers substantial energy when it gets there. Recoil is fairly heavy depending on your tolerance.

Accuracy in my rifle is very impressive. .625" group at 100yds (see pic), 1.25" at 200. I only fired two rounds at 300yds and they were within 2".

I wouldn't hesitate or think it unethical to use this load at 300yds on large game.

throttleman · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2004, 01:26:56 PM »

Very interesting. I have been checking this post frequently and am amazed at how much input I have gotten. Thank you folks.

chewey · « **Reply #22 on:** November 12, 2004, 06:14:31 PM »

Have you tried the 350 gr commercially available PMC load? 2025 muzzle velocity, 4" high at 100 yd is pretty much a 200 yd round. Do you need more?

leverfan · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2004, 07:02:25 PM »

Quote from: eroyd

I shoot Barnes' Original 400 grain, .458 semi-spitzer out of my modern version Browning Single shot falling block B-78 in 45-70.

The bullet has a ballistic co. of just under 400! It leaves my barrel at @2150 fps.

Zero'd at 200 yards, it hits 4" high at 100yds and 17" low at 300 and delivers substantial energy when it gets there.

If you just shot a plain, old flat point at the same velocity, same zero, it would be 4.5" high at 100 yards and 20" low at 300. That's not enough of a gain to give up on flat points, if you prefer them. Of course, you also found the semi-spitzers to be very accurate for you, and that's the main thing.

Still, the 45-70 isn't ever going to be any laser, and the difference between a spitzer and a flat point isn't worth writing home about, not in the field. Now, if you had a 460 Weatherby, that would churn out enough fps to make good use of a spitzer bullet. I don't bother with spitzers in rounds that move out the muzzle slower than 2500 fps or so. The shock of a flat point, and the superior accuracy of a base-heavy bullet, more than make up for the perceived ballistic advantages of a pointed bullet.

Joel · « **Reply #24 on:** November 13, 2004, 06:37:05 AM »

I shot the Barnes 300 gr Semi-spitzers about 3/4 years ago and found them very accurate out to 200 yds. At 2175 fps and 1.5 inches high at 100 yds I was only 6" low at 200. Only problem is that at those velocities they don't expand on deer sized game unless they hit a large bone. I shot 3 deer at ranges from 10 feet to around 35 yds with them, and the only one that expanded was the 6-point buck I shot at 10 feet as he passed below me, Hit the spine and blew a BIG hole in him. Both doe were shot at around 35 yds(both were good sized PA deer), and the one shot in the ribs(lung shot) showed only minimal exit wound expansion. She was taking her time dying, so I put a finishing shot in her. The last one was shot behind the lungs and didn't hit bone at all. The bullet never expanded at all. She just trotted around 25 yds and sat down. Needed a finishing shot also. Didn't start shooting a 45/70 to be needing two shots. I believe if you read the specs on that bullet, Barnes says a mininum of 2400 fps is required for expansion. I believe it. Know a guy who shoots them downloaded to 2600 fps in his 460 Mag, and HE gets great performance out of them.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 15, 2004, 06:03:57 AM »

What a great subject. I have five 45-70's. I just started to load some older no longer made 400 gr. .458 barnes X bullets for my Ruger #1. I am going to order some of the 350 gr. Barnes X .458 bullets and try them also. What I am trying to gain is the performance the Barnes X bullets offer. Barnes X bullets is what I shot 90% of the time out of my guns, I have had great success with accuracy and on game performance. Sure I could grab my 375H&H, but I I chose not to. I am not trying to make a long distance shooter out of my 45-70, but a round I would use out to 200 yards and know the Barnes X bullet will do it's job well.

Lawdog · « **Reply #26 on:** November 15, 2004, 11:01:25 AM »

Redhawk1,

You might want to try either of the two new .458 Barnes TSX bullets(450 and 500 gr.) as they are giving me excellent accuracy in my .450 Marlin's and .450 Rigby. When I called Barnes they said they were thinking about bringing out a 300 or 350 gr. TSX which should be a great lighter frame critter bullet. Lawdog

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 15, 2004, 12:22:03 PM »

Lawdog, I will give them a try, thanks for the suggestion.

throttleman · « **Reply #28 on:** November 15, 2004, 03:37:13 PM »

Ah, 300 and 350 grain X bullets...sounds good to me. I am pleased to have generated so much discussion.

Lawdog · « **Reply #29 on:** November 19, 2004, 12:30:36 PM »

The following is right from the Barnes newsletter that comes out most every month. You can see the whole newsletter at; http://www.barnesbullets.com/newsletter_November.htm

Quote

From the Lab

Q. Greetings: Without giving the matter a great deal of thought, I purchased a box of Barnes No. 45802 bullets for my .45-70. My question is: Will these expand at a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps? My maximum range will be about 200 yards.Paul Miller

A. The Barnes No. 45802 is a .458-inch, 300-grain, semi-spitzer XFB (X flat-base) bullet. This bullet was designed for cartridges like the .458 Winchester Magnum, which are used in box magazines. The ogive or nose of the bullet is not suitable for use in .45-70 lever rifles with tubular magazines; however it can be used in single shot rifles. This bullet begins expanding at around 1,600 feet per second (fps). If your rifle produces a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps with this bullet, the Barnes Ballistics program indicates the bullet would be traveling at 1,584 fps at 200 yards This means terminal performance would be marginal, at best, at 200 yards. A better choice would be the Barnes .458-inch 300gr XFN bullet (No. 45832). This bullet was specifically designed for the .45-70 cartridge, and will expand at lower .45-70 velocities. It will also feed through tubular magazines.

Lawdog