Author Topic: 150gr NBT's for ELK ? (Read 1710 times)

PJ · « **on:** January 24, 2003, 02:39:34 PM »

My '06 loves the 150gr NBT's what do you guys think of using this on bear and elk ? :roll:

Robert · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2003, 03:43:12 PM »

In my opinion...if that is your most confident load for accuracy, I am sure you will not have any problems with Elk or Bear. There have been many thousands of Elk and bear taken with 150 gr 30-30's, and if that will do it....your -06 will certainly do it better.

HEY PJ....BIG 5 Sporting Goods has got VZ-24's on sale for 69 BUCKS. I would jump on it if I were you. They are definate shooters. 8 mm Mausers.

MS Hitman · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2003, 04:00:35 PM »

If you can slow your load down to around 2400 fps, you would have a better chance of getting adequate penetration. However, I recommend you go to a bullet such as the Speer Grand Slam, or Nosler Partition in the 165 to 180 grain persuasion to help insure you get the penetration you need. Elmer Keith was no fan of the .30-06 on elk and that was from a rifle.

I used a 165 grain Grand Slam on a 250 poundish mule deer at 30 feet and got nearly length-wise penetration. Shot him in the chest and the bullet was found resting against a broken femur. This particular load was clocked at 2400 fps during development.

Hope this helps.

PJ · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2003, 03:11:58 PM »

I get 2500fps out of my 15" '06 with Hornady's 150gr Interlock Softpoint.The Interlocks shoot good too,but the 150gr NBTs shot better.I don't like Elmer Keith all that much just for that fact.He thinks the grand old '06 is underpowered well now.lets look at the '06 using a 22" barrel and a 300 Win Mag using a 24 1/2" barrel.The '06 with a 165gr bullet and 60.0grs of H205 has a muzzle velocity of 2852fps.The 300Win Mag using a 165gr and 63.0grs only get 2782fps.Hmmmmmmm :roll: Now lets look at a 200gr bullet out of the underpowered '06 same H205 powder.The '06 pushes the 200gr at 2637fps with 57.0grs of powder.The 300 WIn Mag pushes the 200gr at 2429fps with 57.0gr of powder.

TopGun · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2003, 03:45:07 PM »

Hey PJ. I think the 180 Balistic tip will do great. It's what I'm going to use this year. Guys, you have to remember one thing. Elmer didn't like the '06 because of the buillets available then. I think he'd sing a different song today. He loved the 35 Whelen and 338'06, and his 333 OKH or whatever--tell me why? I think the 165 or 180 out of the Encore is going to be awesome. I personally, at least initially think the Nosler Partitions are too tough for a 250yd shot at the velocities we can attain. I am very sure they'll penetrate, but I have to do some long range expansion tests before I pass serious opinions. I know the 180 Bal Tip whistles right white-tail braodside at 150+. I'm going to the 150 for them next year.

xphunter · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2003, 05:27:36 PM »

150 grain NBT's are probably not my top choice for elk, but I have taken a large cow with that very bullet. MV with my XP was 3000 f.p.s., impact was @ 300 yards (don't remember velocity @ that range) . She went less than 50 yards before she expired. I had a perfect broadside shot. I wouldn't use a BT for heavy work through a shoulder though.
xphunter

PJ · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2003, 05:51:41 PM »

What I'm thinking is if I use too heavy of a bullet it wont expand very well at pistol velocitys.I think the 150 should do the trick.I will have to test some at loang range I guess to find out myself.

thomas · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2003, 06:46:22 PM »

Quote from: PJ

I get 2500fps out of my 15" '06 with Hornady's 150gr Interlock Softpoint.The Interlocks shoot good too,but the 150gr NBTs shot better.I don't like Elmer Keith all that much just for that fact.He thinks the grand old '06 is underpowered well now.lets look at the '06 using a 22" barrel and a 300 Win Mag using a 24 1/2" barrel.The '06 with a 165gr bullet and 60.0grs of H205 has a muzzle velocity of 2852fps.The 300Win Mag using a 165gr and 63.0grs only get 2782fps.Hmmmmmmm :roll: Now lets look at a 200gr bullet out of the underpowered '06 same H205 powder.The '06 pushes the 200gr at 2637fps with 57.0grs of powder.The 300 WIn Mag pushes the 200gr at 2429fps with 57.0gr of powder.

PJ not sure where you were going with this but my 300 win mag will push a 200 federal box ammo 2980! and the 165s are right at 3300
well out doing a 06
I have a winchester mod 70 nothing special
Never really tried reloads since i founds loads it shot well and bought 5 boxes of each from the same lot so my hunting rifle is set for life.
You FPS are really slow....Maybe I read the post wrong?? If so Forgive me
I do have a 26" barrel but then No need for a magnum and a short barrel

Tom

MS Hitman · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2003, 07:59:56 PM »

Top Gun,

Elmer goes into several pages in his book "Big Game Rifles & Cartridges" discussing his opinion on the .30-06. Conversly, going to his later "Keith's Rifles for Large Game", he gives his reasons for liking the .333 O.K.H. and .35 Whelen. Again, these passages are long as he had much to say on their performance relative to the lighter '06.

We do have better bullets and components these days over what he ahd to use when the field research for these books was being done. However, Mr. Keith was of the old school and would take a heavy, slow moving bullet for downing game over a lighter, faster moving projectile.

If you do not have these book in your library; I recommend you get them. I have spent many an hour ready them and always go back for reference.

PJ · « **Reply #9 on:** January 25, 2003, 08:50:54 PM »

Don't get me wrong I love the 300 Win Mag I too have a Mod-70 26" barrel.I was just looking at the '06 and the 300 win mag in my reloading book.Picked the same powder and bullet combo that was the best match per grain.Yes the 300 will out do the '06 but it has to use 10+grs to do so. :shock:

You said"my 300 win mag will push a 200 federal box ammo 2980! and the 165s are right at 3300
well out doing a 06"

JOE MACK · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2003, 01:30:51 AM »

Quote from: PJ

My '06 loves the 150gr NBT's what do you guys think of using this on bear and elk ? :roll:

I've tried the 150gr.NBTs in a .309JDJ on antelope. Even on these little speedsters I find it too destructive. On a broadside at around 130yds, I had an entrance wound of about an inch and an exit wound I could stick four fingers into. I've since switched to the 165grNBT for antelope and deer. For elk, I shoot the 180's out of my Encore. On one trip to RSA, I took kudu, gemsbok, red hartbeeste, and a blue wildebeest with the combination. For my third trip, I'm considering the .375Steyr in the Encore with my .411JDJ contender as a backup for cape buffalo or two and maybe a zebra. I, like Keith, like big bullets for big game.

YMMV on what you decide. RKBA!

TopGun · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2003, 04:48:02 AM »

Hey Hitman. Don't get me wrong. I for one, Absolutley love the '06 and Elmer is still one of my shooter Heros! How can anyone fault a slug from a 404, 416 ro 45-70? The '06, I personally feel is that it is one of the best when you compare efficiency and performance. I have a Whelen because of what Elmer said. I have a 338-06 because of him too. That being said, My '06 shoots as flat, and can hit hard and has great down-range balistics due to our premium bullets. Also, I can wonder how big Elmer's smile would be with the new premium heavies for the .44 maggie? It was his baby. Keep it up, this is exactly why we have so many choices, and these opinions are what make us as shooter a great bunch. All in all, I do think the 150 is too lite for Elk. but then again who I am to say? I took one at 100yds with a lowly TC 14" 35 Remington and a 200gr spire-point. I knew my gun ad load, and I knew what shot I'd have to pass up if a good broadsde wasn't there. I'm taking my 15" '06 this year with the 180 Balistic tip. I'll let you know how it turns out. I'm not a fan of the big magnums rifes. Do I thnk they're fun. Heck yeah, but I don't with them. I never fell into the maketing ploy of bigger, faster bullets makes guarantees! I've seen too many guys in Montana and Colorado shooting at game way to far away just because they cary a big gun. I think they try to circumvent hunting and staliking skill with them, and they stretch their own shooting capabilities. Dangerous game? They have a place, but nothing is a good substitute for practice and skill. I sure hope anyone who hunts with a handgun does not disagree with this? or there will be alot of wounded, lost game out there. I suffer from contender-itis and encore-itis, not magnumitis! Keep shooting!

TopGun · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2003, 05:01:08 AM »

I guess I have to clear one thing. I didn't fully read (absorb) PJ's question and I didn't realize he was talking rifles. This is a handgun hunting forum and I thought he was talking Encore or someting else. That being said, I thnk a 150 balistic tip, from a rifle will blow up an Elk or bear and it (Elk or Bear) will go a long way. My 6X6 took three broadside hits from my 375JDJ before just collapsing. It was at 175yds in a meadow. I'm still gonna try the '06 Encore this with the Nosler cuz it zipped right through 2 PA deer this year and the damage was not extreme by any means. I'm pretty sure the 180NBT will work form my 15" barrel. A doe I shot with my 10" 309 and a 150NBT was slammed down like a wet pillow, but still, the bullet was not recovered.

Mikey · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2003, 09:10:51 AM »

PJ: Robert alerted you to the availability of the VZ-24. I picked up a VZ-24/52 this weekend at a show. The /52 means that they were arsenal refinished in 1952 with new barrels. If you get just an older VZ-24, it may be pretty worn out at the price they are asking. The VZ-24/52 is a few $ more but it is refurbished and the rifling in my barrel looks almost as good as my that in my unissued M48A.

As to your question - I'm assuming you are hunting with a pistol with that 150 grain bullet - as such, for the game you intend to hunt I think the 150 is a bit light and would advocate for a heavier bullet. My preferance would be for the 180.

Hope this helps. Mikey.

Zachary · « **Reply #14 on:** January 27, 2003, 01:58:36 PM »

I can't believe that I am going to be the first person who will be strongly against the use of Nosler Ballistic Tips for use on elk. :?

Yes, it is very important to find a bullet that shoots accurate in your gun, but there should be a balance between accuracy and performance. The NBTs are generally very accurate bullets, but also known to generally expand too violently, especially when they encounter bone or heavy hide. As such, this bullet is simply not for elk, and I strongly recommend that you not use this bullet for such application.

As was previously suggested, try and use Nosler's Partitions, Trophy Bonded, Swift-A-Frames, and Barnes X. The accuracy of the bullets may not be quite as accurate as that of the NBTs, but their performance is three fold. :wink:

Zachary

new snake owner · « **Reply #15 on:** January 27, 2003, 02:20:46 PM »

I have a simmilar problem with a model 70 and am trying the sst to solve it. The rifle loves those plastic tipped bullets (bal tip, scircco?). The swift bullets work great but cost, AUGH!!!, so I am trying these out.

Zachary · « **Reply #16 on:** January 28, 2003, 03:47:04 AM »

With regard to the Hornady SST, Hornady will also be coming out with a new BONDED SST this spring - it's called the "InterBond." If you go to www.hornady.com, you will see it.

Nosler also has a new bonded ballistic tip called "Accubond." Go to www.nosler.com and you will see it.

I do not advocate non-bonded ballistic tips for use on elk, but I can recommend the bonded versions. Why? Because it is stated that these bonded ballistic tips will retain 70% to almost 100% of their weight. It is this kind of "stay-together-toughness" that is needed to penetrate elk.

I still don't think that the bonded ballistic tips are better than bullets like the Barnes X, Swift-A-Frame, Trophy Bonded, or Fail-Safe, but they are significantly better than the non-bonded ballistic tip versions.

Zachary

Mikey · « **Reply #17 on:** January 28, 2003, 05:25:18 AM »

PJ: I didn't read your note as thoroughly as I shout have and did not pick up the NBT designation until Zachary advocated against it. Now that I know what it is you are talking about I will have to agree with Zach on the use of those NBTs.

I loaded some 180s for a buddy's 06 and they came apart on a spine shot on a button buck, leaving massive tissue damge, meat destruction and lots of fragments all over. Similar thing happened to my brother using an Encore in 308 with the 150 grain NBT.

With all due respect, I have seen the plain jane Hornaday perform better than the NBT. They penetrate farther, hold together longer and don't have you calling your dentist after dinner. If hunting large bodied animals like Elk, I would definately opt for the 180 grainer over the 150. And, you have your choice of bullet styles from Hornaday - round nose or spire point. If your shots are under 300 yds you might be better using the round nose - it does not drop any more than 2 inches more than the spire points out to 300 yds and gets better accuracy.

Hope this helps. Mikey.

southern utah · « **Reply #18 on:** January 28, 2003, 06:35:35 AM »

I am looking at the Hornady SST bullets. They have the BT style tip but are constructed like their interlocks.

Zachary · « **Reply #19 on:** January 28, 2003, 07:20:02 AM »

I don't know if Hornady will have both the bonded and regular non-bonded SSTs in their line-up. I think that, due to marketability reasons, Hornady probably will have both.

I would seriously look at the bonded version of the SST though. It may be more expensive, but, in my opinion, worth it.

Zachary

xphunter · « **Reply #20 on:** January 29, 2003, 03:43:20 AM »

Of the six elk I have shot, five of them (2 of which were bulls) were shot with Nosler Partitions. All six were shot presentations that were perfect broadsides. The other case was a NBT. The ballistic Tip gave perfect performance in the one case I used it. It worked great, but it is not my desire to use them again. The new Accubond by Nosler will be one of my choices for elk with my XP's. It's jacket is not soft like the Scirrocco and some other premium bullets so fouling and accuracy shouldn't be as finicky. One thing to consider in choosing a bullet is what the velocity spread is for best performance. Sierra's 180 grain Game King for my 7.82 Patriot is also a choice I am considering. It has a wide velocity range also. What works well in a 308 Striker may not be the best for 30-30 or a 7.82 Patriot. The premium bullets for elk are usually designed for rifle velocities, not handgun.
xphunter

Selmer · « **Reply #21 on:** January 30, 2003, 04:22:11 AM »

Zachary, I'm going to go with you and advise STRONGLY against the use of the Nosler Ballistic Tip on ELK. It happens to be my favorite deer bullet of all time in the .308 and .30-06, it performs perfectly on a 200 lb. deer, I wouldn't trust it to a 500+ lb. elk. For reasons such as this, Nosler has a Partition bullet and it would be top choice for elk.
Selmer

PS That's the first time I've ever spoken against a BT for anything, I've never discussed for elk though.

Robert · « **Reply #22 on:** January 30, 2003, 07:30:24 AM »

A while back, he posted an article about the A-Frames, and had a photo of many bullets that were retreived from animals. They all performed flawlessly, and yes they are expensive, but Jim also posted that ONE box last a long time. He uses Honady bullets in the same weight, and says they have similar ballistics to the A-Frame, so if you use the Hornady's for sighting in, and 'light work', Your expensive A-Frames will last a long time. But if you are taking a shot at a trophy animal, or an animal that will be a years meat supply....why not go with the best? If you are just out at the range for the afternoon, of couse the cheaper bullets are the best option.