Author Topic: Deer hunting with.223 (Read 1640 times)

billjoe · « **on:** October 29, 2004, 07:27:21 AM »

Do you think I'm nuts to consider shooting a deer in the head with a TC Contender in 223, 55Gr at 2800FPS? I can use my bigger guns, but quite honestly, the 223 is my most accurate and easiest shooting barrel. I'll be stand hunting and will use a rest. Farthest shot maybe 40yds. Sounds easy enough.
Anybody had any luck with this technique?
This certainly is not a no-brainer....
bj

dukkillr · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2004, 07:32:34 AM »

better check and make sure it's legal... it wouldn't be here

Bug · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2004, 09:47:50 AM »

If you have the time & ability to make a head shot, why not just go ahead with the heart-lung shot. It takes just as much to line the shot up, and the target is a lot bigger. The .223 is an accepted(?) cartridge here, in some circles. Food for thought.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2004, 10:04:07 AM »

I've killed quite a few(all chest shots) with the 223 in rifles.

I don't care much for 55g bullets though, as they can, and "will" often blow up on a shoulder, or rib, even at 2800 fps(muzzle). I've had great success with Sierra 63g SMPs, Winchester 64g PPs, and 60g Nosler Partitions.

Keep the Winchesters, or Sierras between 2600-2800 fps, and they'll bust shoulders, or ribs, as well as make a nice hole through the vitals. I absolutely swear by either of those bullets, if kept within that velocity, and shots are 150 yards or less.

The Nosler Partitions are a little more tempermental from my experience. You'll need to drive them at least 3000 fps, and they'll give acceptable results. The problem I've had with them is small wound channels at 223 velocities. I'm figuring they'd be a lot better in the 22-250 or a similar caliber.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** October 31, 2004, 02:31:57 PM »

Head shots are far more risky than most assume them to be. The target is quite small for a clean killing shot and most of the time moving. There is a lot of head area that is not immediately lethal and will lead to a long drawn out and painful death for the deer and no chance of you finding it.

Sure IF you do it right it is rather spectacular but if done wrong it is a sad death for the deer. I've done it once in my entire hunting career with a 7-30 Waters and Nosler 120BT. Range wasn't long, head was dead still and it was the last opportunity I was gonna get before the deer left. Shot it right between the eyes.

jhalcott · « **Reply #5 on:** October 31, 2004, 02:53:03 PM »

Ya better lissen to ole gray beard! You MIGHT break a jaw.or skid the bullet thru an eye(those skulls are tough at some angles).Deer heads are like their tails, always moving! I have shot a doe in the head and found the bullet under the hide in the back of the head.!20 7mm hornady.If I had it to do over, I'd wait for a broadside shot. It is surprising to see how far a deer can move it's head in a fraction of a second.

Lone Star · « **Reply #6 on:** October 31, 2004, 04:00:10 PM »

I have hunted with guys who "swear" by head shots, but by golly, when I'm with them almost every deer they hit they blow off the nose, nick a horn, break a jaw or blow out the windpipe. None of that is pretty to see, and it is immensely inhumane to the deer. Head shots sound good to the armchair hunter, but in reality it is a poor shot to take IMO, as others have stated.

Early in my hunting career I was talked into taking a head shot. The .45-70 bullet dropped the deer in its tracks (I always wanted to say that!) and I left the animal lay as other deer were feeding in the area. As I looked for more deer, I noted movement below me. I swung the rifle around and discovered "my" deer staggering to its feet - with a terrible headache I'm sure. I dispatched it with a lung shot. I only have taken one other head shot, at 10 yards with a BH, but that's another story. I do not do it any more.

I've taken deer with a .223 rifle and 60-grain Noslers at around 2850 fps. Killed okay with lung shots, but it often took the animals a while to exhibit evidence of a hit. I learned to take the shot and wait 10-20 seconds for the animal to tip over. I consider it a stunt and would not do it again, but it works.

Old Griz · « **Reply #7 on:** October 31, 2004, 04:39:13 PM »

:cb2: I think the solution to your problem is a new gun! The .223 just ain't a deer cartridge. If your bigger guns are not accurate enough, like I said, you need a new gun. Forget the .223. Save it for varmints and coyotes.

Lawdog · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2004, 11:20:41 AM »

billjoe,

For any deer the .223 in a rifle is a extremely poor choice at best. In a handgun it's even worse. As Graybeard said the head makes a poor target for all the reasons Graybeard stated. The .223 Rem. makes an excellent choice for a varmint cartridge whether it's in a rifle or handgun. As stated get a new barrel in a bigger caliber for that T/C. Lawdog

THE#1hunter · « **Reply #9 on:** November 01, 2004, 11:37:16 AM »

I think aslong as you have confidence in your weapon thats all that matters(in most cases)....Placement is everything....

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** November 01, 2004, 12:26:52 PM »

Quote

I think aslong as you have confidence in your weapon thats all that matters(in most cases)....Placement is everything

Well yeah MAYBE!

Having misplaced confidence in your gun is NOT all that matters some at all. Placement ain't everything but it sure beats the heck out of all else. And the head ain't proper placement.

By the time you've killed a couple truck loads of deer you'll have seen and experienced enough situations to see that playing games with guns to see just how light you can really go is not where it's at. You'll also learn what is and isn't good bullet placement. No doubt the hard way a time or three.

Old Griz · « **Reply #11 on:** November 01, 2004, 02:32:26 PM »

:cb2: Common sense trumps confidence every time.

jhalcott · « **Reply #12 on:** November 01, 2004, 03:51:37 PM »

why not go the other way and use a 50 calBMG rifle? I have shot deer with alot of calibers.The 17 rem to a 577black powder gun. MOST of the deer died within seconds(even the 1 shot with the 17),some took a while longer.Only 1 got away,but tracks showed there was a vehicle involved in that! I use" middle of the road" rounds because they work up close AND when a big 10 pointer showed up at 150 yards. The does were heading away and taking him along.A 165 gr 308 dropped him before he got to the woods.I am definetly not saying not to use the 223 but do aim for the heart/lung area if you use the 223. I under stand the feeling of "it's too easy with a (weapon of your choice)" That's why some guys go into archery.It's why I started using pistols! I shot a LOT of targets before I shot my first animal. You might want to shoot at a few hundred MOVING 2 liter bottles before shooting at a deer.

Old Griz · « **Reply #13 on:** November 01, 2004, 04:08:19 PM »

I think a .223 is great for killing 2-liter bottles! :-D

Selmer · « **Reply #14 on:** November 02, 2004, 06:58:19 AM »

My next barrel for my Encore will be a .223 or .22 BR, and although they're legal in SD, where I would use it to hunt song dogs and p-dogs, I'd never use it for deer, that's what my .308 and .30-06 are for. As for the head shot debate, the second deer I ever shot was a nice whitetail does that I shot running at about 100 yds with a .243 stoked with a Nosler Partition bullet. I'd practiced running shots on rabbits with my scoped .22, so I was pretty confident. First shot she reared back and fell to the ground. I slowly walked up on her and at about 20 yds. she brought her head up and tried to get up. I decided to try a head shot to finish her off. I shot her lower jaw off and she thrashed so much I couldn't get a good shot even on her vitals, I had to watch her suffer a horribly painful experience that should have been avoided, she did settle down so I could shoot her in the chest to finish her. My first shot hit the brisket and incapacitated her, bruised the lungs and heart, but the head shot was my worst hunting experience in memory. I'm not weak stomached, but God gave us dominion over all creatures on the Earth, that doesn't mean He gave us the right to try fancy shots and wound them horribly, if I'd tried that shot without her being previously hit in the brisket, she would have run off and died of gangrene or starvation. Please reconsider your thoughts on shooting deer in the head. The deer deserves to be dispatched cleanly and mercifully, I hate seeing a wounded animal of any sort, it saddens me to know I haven't done my job properly. Don't take this as an anti-hunting stand, I grew up on wild game and feed my family on wild game, I just want to responsibly harvest my game.
Selmer

Camp Cook · « **Reply #15 on:** November 02, 2004, 09:54:54 AM »

Let me start by saying that my favorite go to rifle is a s/s Rem 700 300 Rem Ultra Mag with 180gr bullets @ 3380fps.
I used to shoot a lot of Sitka blacktail deer in the Queen Charlotte Islands which is just a little south of Alaska. I have shot several dozen with a 22-250 chambered rifle with 55gr bullets @ 3660fps average velocity. I know that these velocities are a lot faster than what your talking about here but I have never seen deer die faster than with a neck shot with this rifle. 22 caliber hole in and about a 2" exit hole and only the hide holding the head on.
I agree with what everyone else is saying about head shots and have not taken very many of them myself but the ones that I have done have always been with a far larger faster/caliber and always with positive results. Mind you I used to shoot at least 4000 thousand rifle rounds a year at that time and did not miss my shot very often.
Cam

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #16 on:** November 03, 2004, 09:55:54 PM »

I swear to God, the day is going to come when some bozo posts here inquiring into the feasibility of using a BB gun to take dear!!

Camel 23 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2004, 03:14:33 AM »

I was thinking the same thing but after giving more thought, a pellet gun would be a better choice. (better penetration)

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2004, 09:38:49 AM »

How about a .17 caliber for bear?

Camel 23 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2004, 10:29:32 AM »

For bear I use my sling shot only! But I have a pocket knife for back-up.

KYODE · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2004, 11:26:36 AM »

:shock: there are a lot of things i could say here, but i ain't gonna..........ahhhhh, what the heck :lol:.....a few slips won't hurt. :?

i could kill a deer easily and cleanly with a .223. it is NOT my first choice, and i never do use one for that purpose. BUT, it CAN be used, if one wants to, with an apropriate bullet as they mention above. a whitetail deer is not a BIG monsterous animal. they are easily killed period.

a BIG 300 WHIZBANG MAGNUM is not needed for deer. they can, and are killed with calibers such as .223.....all the time. i'll even go as far to say, it makes a fine little caliber to start a young child with, if using a good bullet.

i have killed several deer with a 22-250, using a 50gr nosler bt. :eek: (ohhhh! gasp!)nope.....not my standard "deer gun", and still not my first choice, but extremely effective nonetheless.

get yourself a big 300 whizbang magnum.....brag to your buddies how it "knocks em down"............"makes a good brush gun". :lol:
the .223 can, does, and will continue to take a few deer every fall.

Camel 23 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2004, 12:39:14 PM »

My concern with the .223 is if it doesn't drop in it's tracks you will have to trail it. You will get the most blood for tracking from an exit hole. What kind of exit holes are you going to get with a .223? I have never shot anything bigger than a groundhog with a .223 so I don't know, but I would guess that you're not going to get an exit hole.

jar-wv · « **Reply #22 on:** November 04, 2004, 03:03:44 PM »

.223 would be illegal here. Must be at least 24 caliber for bottle necked cartridge. I have seen many one shot kills in 223 rifles. Most were pass thru neck shots. Most dropped in their tracks or didn't go far. I agree with Selmer, you owe it to the animal to make a clean kill and head shots are risky. If conditions were perfect and you knew when to pass on the shot you would probably be ok, but if the buck of a lifetime steps out you may be inclined to think conditions were more favorable than they actually were. For the animals sake, go with a bigger gun and save the 223 for groundhogs and stray cats and such.

jar

KYODE · « **Reply #23 on:** November 04, 2004, 03:23:48 PM »

i agree....if ya got a bigger gun use it, and if ya have a choice on a deer gun to buy.....buy a bigger one.
but.....then again, if your young child needs sumthin to hunt with, pick a good bullet and practice him/her up, and go to it. if it's all you got, it can be effective, if used properly.
you can loose a deer, even shooting the good ol 30-06 class guns....if ya don't make a good shot. destroy the vitals, and the deer is down, or runnin dead.....exit or not.

:wink: :money:

billjoe · « **Reply #24 on:** November 04, 2004, 05:22:33 PM »

Wow. That got things stirred up a bit...
I agree with all you guys. I bet there are lots of deer shot with a 223 and lots of good clean kills. I bet there are also plenty of messed up deer that, to me, would be absolutely unacceptable in my hunting group.

I would never start a young member out with that small of caliber and I would never use one myself if I did not feel qualified to kill cleanly with it. Bullet placement would be so critical that starter hunters would need to be crack shots to make it work. That sure didn't happen with me or my boys when they tried to shoot their first deer. Ever hear of buck fever...

I began handgun hunting because the big guns are too big for our Wisconsin deer. My boys use the '06 and the 243. They like all that power and the deer drop like flies. I use the black powder and my TC Contenders. I just had the idea of head shoting a deer because that is what I would see to be the only feasible humane shot if using that size of bullet and velocity. I've taken a few cats heads clean off at 50yds with it and thought that with that kind of accurracy, why not try a deer. Of course the shot would be from a stand and a stationary target at a reasonable distance.

However, after all the discussion, I've reconsidered. In the event that I did have a failed shot, I would not sleep well and all the advice you gave against head shooting would be for nothing.

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. This dude will not use a 223 for deer. Guess I'll have to use my JDJs or 7-30, or 357Max....

bj

Camel 23 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 05, 2004, 08:03:28 AM »

I agree completely about shot placement, and I'm not saying the .223 won't kill a deer. I don't use a 300 wizbang magnum myself either, I have had trouble finding loading specs for it.

BS · « **Reply #26 on:** November 06, 2004, 03:13:23 AM »

Ther is one deer that a 223 is good at killing and I would use it for, paper deer [targets.]

Michael Courtney · « **Reply #27 on:** November 10, 2004, 06:50:13 AM »

My experience is that the .223 works very well of adaquate penetration can be assured. This usually means either using a stout bullet (partition, failsafe, barnes x) or slowing the velocity down.

I've had outstanding results using a 55 grain Hornady spire point at 2500 FPS (11 grains of blue dot). I developped this load because it is relatively quiet and suitable for work close to residential areas.