223 or 243

[TrapperZach]

shoul i get my handi rifle in .223 ir .243 i will be hunting deer,yotes,foxs,bobcats and potintuly wild hogs.

[Fred M]

The 243 is to small for big stuff and too big for small stuff. It is neither fish nor fowl. A poor choice for wild pigs. You can't beat a 223 for varmints
coyotes and cats included. Fred M.

[borg1]

i agree with Fred M.  Its kind of like comparing apples and oranges.  If your goal, however, is to hunt a range of critters and you can only have 1 rifle, i'd go with the .243.  If you handload, you can get decent deer/p'horn loads AND decent varmint loads.  You had better be careful with bullet placement on deer though to minimize wounding.  I don't think i'd mess around with hogs with such a light caliber.  They have HEAVY shoulders...[/b]

[Nuttinbutchunks]

I'd definitely go with the .243, because if you've seen the velocities you know you can crank lighter bullets at 4000 FPS, and heavier slugs at 2900 FPS. I think it's an excellent all around cartidge. I recently traded a .44 mag barrel for a .243. I can't wait to shoot it. :-D

[Leftoverdj]

I think you are trying to cover too much range if you want the pelts off the foxes, coyotes, and bobcats. If you don't care about the pelts, consider a .25-06.

In my hunting days, about 25 years ago, I saw entirely too many .243 failures on deer to consider one. I'm told that today's bullets are much better, but I am set in my ways. I sure would not hunt no hogs with one.

[handirifle]

The 243 has killed more deer and probably a lot more hogs than many will ever like to admit.  My Savage 243 was a fine rifle and deadly accurate.  It will put 100gr bullets through both shoulders of most any deer out their at 250yds and more if you go for the lungs.

Used with a 90gr bullet of a Partition design or similar it should do well on hogs 150lbs and below.  It will leave the muzzle at about 3100fps.

As mentioned, the 55gr varmint bullets approach 4000fps and that makes a trajectory like a laser.  I used 85gr BTHP bullets for coyote, but don't do that if you want any fur left.  It will leave a fist sized hole on exit.

[gwhilikerz]

I would choose the 243 for what you mentioned. It will do all those things. Yes a pig has tough shoulders. Just don't shoot the shoulders :grin: . A 243 will take a deer readily. I have been hunting whitetails for 45 years and have seen just about every caliber fail to cleanly kill deer. It usually comes back to bullet placement. I like the 243. It is my deer rifle(when my grandson lets me use it) LOL if you want to see what a 243 does with your own eyes check out Ted Nugent's Spirit of the Wild tv show. He and his whole family have settled on 243 for practically all their gun hunting. It works very well.

[Fred M]

Well here we go again. I thought this would stir up a bit of fuzz. I had six different 6mm's wildcats and standards. There was one wildcat I rather liked a 6x47FM my own design, thought of using it for HBR competition.

In the hands of an expert rifleman they do ok. If you are meat hunter like me you best not shoot for the body. Head and neck shots only or you loose halve the deer meat. Unless you like blood shot hamburger.
A 458 Win Mag with a 500gr solid will destroy less meat than a 243 on deer. Try it I did.

The 243 Win is not a good deer rifle, in my experience, there are better.
The 30-30AI is one of them. But who believes an old timer that shot more game with more different rifles than you can shake a stick at.

Ask the African PH's that shoot and cull raised game herds, they use the 223 even for Buffs used it with armor piecing bullets and drop them in their tracks, they shoot a whole bunch of the them with out spooking them.
I saw some skulls from buffs with the tiny holes into the brain.

You have to see these guys shoot 2-300 Spring Bocks in one night all head shots, nothing else is marketable.

Now you guys tell me is the 223 a Buff rifle? Hell no, not for you and me anyway.

Fred M.

[gwhilikerz]

Fred M. I didn't see anyone say you were not an expert. I just disagree with you about the 243 and I couldn't care less about your wildcats. I never owned one. I have however owned several 243, 270, 30-06, 30-30 etc. Standard calibers alright, but they all work. But I am curious. Why do you say in one sentence that the 243 isn't enough gun or a bad gun for deer, then you say it will tear up a deer? I suspect you have done more reading about the 243 than shooting it.  A good lung shot will put a deer down and there is plenty of meat left, more than a deer shoulder shot with a 7mm mag for instance. I'm not questioning your credentials, but as you say, I too am an old timer with lots of animals and deer hunting experience.  Why don't you believe me? :lol:

[muzzleblast525]

Shot placement....Shot placement....Shot placement....I shot 3 deer last year with my 22-250, all 1 shot kills.  None of them ran more than 40 yards and fell within sight.  Of course, deer in Texas probably aren't as big as northern deer, but, all heart/lung shots they were, all again "SHOT PLACEMENT"

[Fred M]

gwhilikerz.
To start with I never claimed to be an expert. You just admitted in your previous post that the 243 needs perfect bullet placement. exactly my point. I made many one shot kills with the various 6mm's the last one with a 243AI.  I will do the job in cool hands. That does not make it a good deer rifle and it never will. Just because you and I can make reliable kills with a 243 means exactly nothing.

I shoot a 25 Hunter a very small cartridge with a 100 gr bullet. This rifle has made sofar nothing but one shot kills and I hunt in open prairie country. I would never claim this rifle to be the ideal deer rifle. It is very much like a 243. Yes a 22-250 will kill deer as dead as a door nail. In Canada that caliber is prohibited for deer. wonder why?

The last thing I would recommend to a new hunter is a 243.

Can the guys that use a 45 gallon drum for a target at 50yard at make 3 solid hits in 4 seconds with a 30-30 Win make a go of it with a 243? These are the majority of dear hunters and that is a fact wether you believe it or not and I have seen it many times. Fred M.

[Donaldo]

Fred,
Sometimes I think you have tunnel vision.  I am just a wondering, what do you consider to be the ideal "deer rifle".  Give us a clue.

[Fred M]

Donaldo.
Perhaps I do have tunnel vision, and on the end of the tunnel there is light but no 243.

what do you consider to be the ideal "deer rifle". Give us a clue.

There are many rifles and many deer some as big as moose and elk.

The smallest cal I consider ideal is a 6.5x55, the 7x57. the 7mm-08, 308 270 . 280 and the 30-06. Most magnum are great for deer, the 300Wby for an example. This is what I see in my tunnel vision. :-) Fred M.

PS. I got to get off this computer. You can argue amongst yourself. I really don't know why I answer questions like that.  :oops:

[handirifle]

The last thing I would recommend to a new hunter is a 243.

Just because someone is new to hunting (or just dder hunting) doesn't mean they don't know how to shoot.

many deer some as big as moose and elk

I guess NEF should make a 375 H&H so those 800lb deer will drop.[

[Jack Ryan]

243 if you are a deer hunter who wants to shoot varmits.

223 if you are a varmit hunter who wants to shoot a deer or a pig.

[borg1]

Fred is incorrect about the .22-250 being illegal in Canada.  it might be illegal in the mid west of Canada, but in New Brunswick, Canada, 223 and greater (even 22-250) are legal.  

Bucks in NB are beasts (mature ones 300+lbs on the hoof).  I've seen deer get up after being shot with .308's and run off never to be found again.  The hunter thought any angle shot would do the trick and fired a quartering towards shot.  The bullet struck the brisket and deflected downward and out of the deer, creating just a fleshwound.  Lots of blood and hair, but deer got away.  Well placed 22 and 243 bullets on same deer anchored them.

Placement IS the key regardless of the caliber used.  I am not an OLD timer, but i've killed enough deer with many calibers and bows to know that a well placed bullet or arrow through the boiler room does the trick.  I think its up to the hunter to become competent with the gun or bow setup they use...[/b]

[TrapperZach]

i wasint tryin to start any trouble on here or nothin sry. but i will be mostly hunting fur for the fur and want a gun i can take out durin rifle seson and shoot a deer humanely.

[22KHornet]

My first deer was a Arizona Mule deer with a 243, I was twelve.  Later the same year I killed a javelina with my 243.  The 243 is a great round I use mine for everything from mule deer (when I can) to yotes and have had great success.  If I said it once I have said it a thousand times I still don't see why people think they need a howitzer to kill a deer.
 
Anyway go with the 243 the heavier bullets will kill all the deer you want and the little 55 grainers will demolish any yote you stumble across.
 
A 300 Weatherby,   sheesh  :roll:

[borg1]

No trouble started with me.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  I've come to realize that most of these discussions are circular arguments.  That is, there are as many pros and cons to each situation that lead discussors round and round.

If its one thing i think we can all agree on its shot placement.

Again, no hard feelings on my end. :-)

[BIGBOREFAN]

I have never felt underguned with anything I have carried and I have carried everything from 22 Hornet to 375 H&H Mag. The key is shot placement and knowing when NOT TO TAKE THE SHOT. Now when I decided to take the 22 Hornet deer hunting one snowy morning, was I planning on makeing a 200 yard chest shot or a 75 yard running shot. No. I was working a thicket that the snow had the tree limbs hanging on the ground and I meen it was thick. The farthest shot would have been maybe 20 yards at most. I was planning on taking a close head shot while the deer was in its bed. Well that thick thicket produced one deer at 10 yards. Did I take the shot. No. The big doe seen me at the same time I seen her. She could have been easly killed with a bigger gun and I could have probally killed her as I exited the thicket behind her. She was running to the corn field and stopped at about 100 yards broadside. I could have tried a head shot but did not. I think it is about knowing when not to take the shot. I would have no problem using the 243 Win. but would feel better with my 270 Win. I think what Fred is saying is there is more ideal calibers for young and new hunters. The 30-30 offers more bullet weight and sectional density but in the end it still comes down to proper shot placement and plenty of practice.


BBF

[TrapperZach]

while fur hunting with the .243 will leave an large exit hole?

[gwhilikerz]

TrapperZach, My opinion just changed with your last post (yes I can do that :grin: ). If fur is your main concern and deer comes second then I would go with the 223. It won't make the mess of the fur like a 243 will. And it will take a deer when you need it to. Sorry if I lit anyone's fuse.

[Fred M]

Handirifle.
Shooting and hunting are not the same things. Anybody can punch holes in a paper target. But anchoring a big deer in its tracks without ruining halve of it, is hunting and knowledge. Shooting a deer through the ribs very rarely stops a deer. Though it is the only option for a jittery hunter with buck fever.

It will die for sure after 250 yards across a fence where it says No trespassing. trespassers will be prosecuted. That almost happened to me  two years ago when I shot a deer through the ribs with a Nosler Partition bullet it almost made it over the fence.

Yes a 375 H&H Handi would make a hell of good deer rifle, I agree with you on that one. Everybody should have on as a spare. Fred M.

[gwhilikerz]

I guess my bowhunting has jaded my opinions a little as to what calibers to use.  To me, a shot thru the ribs and into the lungs will kill a deer no problem. I expect it to run a lot of the time. But it will be dead before it stops running. Then it is my job to track it.  I don't think it matters what the caliber is if it hits the lungs. I do agree that shoulder shots with bigger calibers will put the deer down in its tracks more often than will the smaller caliber with the same shot location. But that is where bloodshot hamburger is made too. If my deer jumps the fence and the sign says "no trespassing" then I go to the owner, explain the situation, and retrieve my deer. This has happened a few times and I have never been denied access to retrieve a deer. In fact the landowner has often come with me to help get the deer so I won't have to get it back thru a fence. I little venison or maybe a country ham at Christmas goes a long way to bond good relationships. :grin:

[Cottonwood]

Handirifle.
Shooting and hunting are not the same things. Anybody can punch holes in a paper target. But anchoring a big deer in its tracks without ruining halve of it, is hunting and knowledge. Shooting a deer through the ribs very rarely stops a deer. Though it is the only option for a jittery hunter with buck fever.  Fred M.

Fred come on now.... a properly place shot using the heart lung will stop a deer and now they will not go running off into never never land.  I guess my bow hunting days still lives on in me as well.  ALL my shots no mater if from a .24 cal bullet in .223 Rem or 22-250 using a 55-gr Nosler Ballistic Tip or a nice size pill from my 45-70 or 45-90.  It's called shot placement in the kill zone.  Those little NBT's make the heart lung look like someone was in there before you with a knife just a cutting up the heart and lungs to shreds.  I found the results of my season opener quite nice after using just this with my 22-250 with a 55-gr NBT with very little blood shot damaged meat.  That large doe only covered approx 30 feet and piled nose first into endless sleep.

BTW Fred, shooting a deer through the heart lung is also the only way that is taught up here with the Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks Hunter Safety Program.... why, because it is a sure thing.  A shoulder shot, ruins much meat.  A neck shot just has too many chances of a wounding shot etc.  So I guess we are teaching all those new hunters out there, up here in Montana to be jittery hunters with buck fever.  Trouble is they listen and bring home the bacon.... results speak for themselves.

Then after they take their shot, we teach them to sit and wait, so not to cause the deer or elk to want to run... given a reason to run after being shot, and they will and in a lot of case RUN FAR.  Left alone, they want to lay down prefering they can find cover, and go to sleep.

With the kind of shot that I am, if I wanted to do head shots I could, BUT it to me is not ethical, just in case some factor goes against you and you gravely wound the deer in the process..... I don't do it.

Now if I so had a choice of using a .243 Win it also makes a fine deer rifle and caliber choice.  It has put many a deer down as well as elk too, because of bullet selections now made of better construction for the job.  I have a friend who is by far much old and wiser than myself who has hunted with nothing more than his .222 Rem with 12 bull elk under his belt to proove it.  All of them taken with proper placement of the shot and short recovery time.

IS this a caliber that you would choose, I would say no and that is because YOU don't choose to do so, for one reason or another.  Others by experience may choose the later... it is simply their choice in the matter.

If TrapperZach does purchase a .243 Win he will put much deer meat on his table... and if he chooses to hunt fox, coyote and even prairie dog he will score many of these as well.

JMHO

[handirifle]

Montanan
Well said!  From one archer to another, it's all about shot placement, but a sharp broadhead does help.

As far as I'm concerned the only animal I shoot through the shoulders is one that might come after me, or that might fall off a cliff if he runs.  A deer with a bullet hole through BOTH lungs will not run far.

That's what tracking is for.

[Fred M]

The Montanan.
When you shoot a deer through the ribs you are not hitting the heart.
The heart is not to the rear of the front leg and in the middle of the rib cage. I am talking about a lung shot not a heart shot.  What the heck are we arguing about.

 I know exactly where  the heart is and can hit it if I want too. I also know a heart shot is fatal. Most animals don't go far when so hit. You are twisting my words around. I should not have to orate on the anatomy of a deer.

Many people have not the faintest idea where the vital organs of game are located. If they do know they still could not hit it. This is all BS, we are talking about the reliability of the 243 on deer size game for the general hunter, not the experienced expert rifleman or hunter who can make a killing shot with an adequate rifle no matter which way the deer or what have you is standing, and if he has not an adequate rifle he won't shoot.

Most of the 243 advocates should read some of Elmer Keith books about deer rifles and his wisdom. He helped me with questions about building an elk rifle quite a few years ago. I still got his letters. Great guy.

 End of my story, keep the hands of nimrods away from a 243 unless he is out after jack rabbits and that is all I said before.  Fred M

[TrapperZach]

so are you sayin im a nimrod because im a beginer im not sayin you are im just wonderin not tryin to affend ya but i think i might go with the .223 since i will be mainly doin varmits and canines and the acasanol deer instead of vise versa thanks every one for all the information all of you have helped geatly in my decision. if i ever get a chance to hunt any thing larger than deer ill get a 30 06 or somtin like that. thanks again
trapperzach

[handirifle]

Well gee fred, I think it's obvious you have an opinion, but it's JUST THAT, your opinion.  How about letting others share their experiences and giving others just a LITTLE credit for knowing a bit of animal anatomy and terminal performance.

I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences with "nimrods" in the past but I personally try not to sling mud in a new posters face till I see him do something stupid.

We all know by now how you feel about the 243 and you'll not change our opinions, just like we won't change yours.  That's OK but just don't start attacking peoples integrity when you know nothing about them.

Lighten up a bit!  This is why the guy is asking questions.

Oh, and for the record, the ribs DO cover the heart and lungs, and the liver and kidneys, all of which are fatal shots.  Some take longer than others but will be fatal.

[Ditchdigger]

Deer can't run far with a heart shot? I was hunting N.M. and talking to my good friend John Goodwin,a game warden in the district. We were talking about how far a deer could go heart shot. He personally witnessed one mule deer buck go 350 yds. with the top of his heart blown out by a 30 06.He stepped of the distance ,and the buck ran the last 150 yd's with out any blood at all. Yes he did a kind of autopsy and confiremed  everything about the shot. If you read Guns and Ammo,Bart Skelton runs and hunt with John and will vouch for him. My Idea of a Deer gun is something that will leave a 3" exit wound at 300 yds. I've hunted with 243's and finally bought a 300 Win mag. The differance between the 2 is like daylight and dark. Still shot placement is still king,but if the buck move 3" forward while you're pulling the trigger, or you're a little rattled, it will make the difference between a long (maybe unsucessfull) trailing job,or a 50 yd. trail a blind man can follow.    Digger