newbie ? 50-70 or 50-90

[fe352v8]

I have just ordered a Lone Star rolling block.  I originally was going to order in 45-70 but after talking with Dave Higgenbotthum, several times for almost 3 hrs, ordered one in 50-70.  Intend to use rifle mainly for hunting deer, moose, possibly bison, casual target, and and of course the deadly Kansas prairie dog.  Never hunted with black powder, have sold my other hunting rifles, shooting deer with a scoped 308 or 300 Win mag not much of a challenge, see deer - deer die.   My question regards flexibility, most of my shots are taken at 75 to 150 meters a max of 250.  When I was talking to Dave he said his best accuracy had been from a 50-70 and that the 50-90 beat him up.  I've now had the chance to shoot both calibres and the 50-90 was not all that unpleasant.  The Lone Star should weigh about 12 lbs., so what are you opinions.  I think in knife terms, you can do a small job with a big knife, but you can't do a big job with a little knife.  Suppose I shouldn't question the maker but I have months to second guess.  By the way the 50-70 rounds look ugly compared to the 50-90.

Thanks for your help,

jon heimlich

[T.J. McSuds]

Considering the uses you have, I think the issue is the weight of the gun rather than caliber. I would go with a 50-70 carbine.

[fe352v8]

Thanks for the reply.  I ordered it with a 30'' octagonal barrel, and left the profile to his discretion.  Talked with Dave, and he said he thought it would most likely come at at least 10 1/2 or 11 lbs.  Weight did not seem bad compared to the springfield M1A1 (M14) I sold.  Plus from reading other posts it seems everyone eventually shoots in some competition and did want to keep that option.  I am going down Friday to the The Great Plains War '04, in Garnett, KS to watch the big bore rifle calibre side matches.  Appreciate your taking the time to reply.

jon

[T.J. McSuds]

Jon,
  I had a Pedersoli RB, 30"-1 1/16". It was fine shooting with any kind of rest. However, with all the weight in the barrel I did not like shooting it offhand. I wound up trading for a Sharp's type. It is only one pound lighter but hangs better offhand.
 A 12-13lb rifle will be a handful to haul through the woods. I would like to find a 8.5-9lb RB that I could afford. The one I might get is from Dixie Gunworks. It is a carbine in 45Colt. It would make a good walking around gun for deer.

[fe352v8]

TJ

Thanks again.  I really like the craftmanship of Lone Stars, and Dave Higgenbotham is a class act.  I think your right, I am going to talk with him about ways to lighten the load.  This rifle is to be more than just a "gun", sort of an heirloom, mid-life crisiss (got an AARP card), toy thing.  My idea of a successful hunt is not being in the office or on the phone and being in the woods with my kids, if we bag something thats an added bonus but the memories will last longer than "free" meat.  I am using precedes from selling off my evil pre-ban "assault" weapons during a previous administration's, who shall remain nameless, political manuverings with, members, of his staff. Thanks again for your help.

jon

[T.J. McSuds]

Sounds like you and I have a lot in common. I just attempted to trade my Bushmaster for a 1886 in 45-70. I'm 58 with two grandsons. I have one 22 set aside for #1 and will have to get one for #2.

  For your RB, maybe a half oct, half round ,would be the way to go.

[fe352v8]

TJ

Probably do, No grand kids, I am 53 with a 19 and 13 year old, started late.  I am surprised that you could not make the trade, at the gun shows here in the Kansas City area, tactical stuff seems to be the hot item.  When I sold off my guns I did keep my first one, a Marlin Golden 39A Mountie, bought it mail order from Herter's, with paper route money, parents had a cow.  Also kept a S&W 940, my Glock 19 was better but spent to much having the 940 slicked up, plus it is a little different.  Going to look at some half rounds tomorrow at the shoot in Garnett, as that would save a lot of weight.  But the looks on this one are kind of important, working on some engraving and inlay.  If it ends up being a little on the heavy side I will just remind my self that it is lighter than an M-60, of course I was younger stronger and dumber then.  Maybe I will make the kids gun bearers, like in the old Tarzan flicks.  Anyway thanks again for your ideas and help.

jon

[Bentsight]

Jon,
What kind of range/match is there in Garnett for you to view these rifle types. I've heard of a muzzle-loader club down there but not a cartridge range.
Mike

[fe352v8]

Mike,

It's the Grand Army of the Frontier National Championship.  They are doing this with the National Congress of Old West Shootists.  Shoot runs 11/5 thru 11-7, fri Sat, and Sun.  Side matches on Fri, big bore rifle single and lever, pistol calibre lever, fastest pistol and rifle, long range pistol, postal match, and team shoot.  Sat and Sun are the main stages.  You can get more info on these web sites: www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org and at www.swiftsite.com/ncows/article 2.htm

jon

[fffffg]

my 45-70c sharps is 10 1/2 t0 11 pounds and for all around weight it is just great..  you need to put it on top of  your shoudler for a long walk tho.. i dont mind the weight at all.. the problem is barrel time. the bullet is going to take its time going down the bore compared to other guns you have been shooting and  fouling/loading    variences etc  increase/decrease  the the velocity, thus the lighter guns will recoil more/ less, opening up the group more than with a modern gun you are used to..  for practicle hunting situations your going to top out at about 150 yards with such a gun in my humble opinion..  if you have a range finder and scope the area out before hand or know the distance for some reason and have this marked on your sights, then that is a different matter, but thats not the typical hunting situation i know of.. if i sight my gun in at 200 yards it shoots 10 inches high at 50, 14 inches high at 100 and 12 inches high at 150 yards.. this gives me the 50-150 yard capability.. i just aim about 12 inches low..  if i sight in at 150 yards the gun is 6 inches high at 50, and 6 1/2 inches high at 100 yards.. .. after 200 yards things get very difficult to master..(uness you know thedistance and are sighted in for it.)  .. in my opinion you would need the heaver gun for ground hog, lighter for hunting if you wish, but i like the 10 1/2 pounds for all round, target/ hunting... if you go with a 50 90 i would personally not get a carbine.. the velocites of the 50-70 with 500 grain bullet are not very good in my lyman book.. the killing power is going to be fantastic in the game you mentioned.. max vel of 50 70 in the book is 1333 with 422 grain bullet,smokless,,.. this will maybe ahve a trajectory like i mentined..  the most impartant thing you left out.. do you want to shoot black powder or smokeless.?? jacketed or cast? or both?.. these have huge ramnifications of what gun you will buy.. the 45-70 for instance is much better for smokeless and black of you want accuracy and to shoot both smokeless and black.. the 45-90 and 45 100 are black powder territory and are difficult to load accuratly. experts use them for 1000 yards shoots...  if you want to shoot over 150 yards i would consider a 45-70.  the 50 90 with a  422 grain bullet shoots 1460 with imr 4227, the 50-140  with ffg would shoot at 1677 feet per second.. now dont order that in a carbine!!.   so i guess all this throws a rattler in with the bullsnakes..  go to the shilo web page and start asking these questoins to the guys who make aliving at this..  your guy your talking to is giving you good advice, but i question your questions your asking..  50 cal and long range is not a good mix in my humble opinion..  50 cal and hunting is tops..  but after 125 yards all slow moving bullets start going south pretty fast, and the 50 is no exception..  generally first gun should be a 45 70,  with smokeless and 400 grain bullet your max velocity would be about 2000 feet per second in a ruger nubmer one or quality sharps.... then you could shoot black with a velocity of about 1200-1300 feet per second. up to 600 grain flat nose if you want.. 30 to one lead mix.. should give similar results to the 50.. .. .  back to hunting..  i use a lawrence sight for hunting.. it comes on a sharps 74.. i believe the sharps will give alot more velocity than the rollling block im not sure..  the lawrance sights are a three sight system that can be a knighmare with the differnt loads that you can use in starting out to determine what you like.. they arnt easily adjustable. except for the long range slide.. i use a 1/16 drill bit under the long range  slide for 200 yards and it shoot about 3 inches low..  again thats 12 inces high at 150 yards if im off in my distance .good elk system...  if you use peeps it will take some time to screw the sight into the shooting distance.. and in the half hour after sunset you will not be able to set it without flashlight. ever use a micrometer?  in the dark, with a flashlight? with a 4 point buck on the run?.. . so hunters use the lawance or buchorns in low light which is when you seee most of the critters anyway.. also the tall peeps tend to end up in the trash if the horse has a blowup/or you roll down the bank for some reason,, has ruined many expensive hunts.. .. ..   the other day i shot a 15/16 inch group at 100 yards using the full buck horn and the silver front blade centered in it.. its a huge peep, sighted in 6 inches high at 100 yards.. on at 150 and 6 inches high at 50 yards. good deer placement.. shoot at the heart.. any way, it took me a couple years to get that load, shooting here and there, now and then.. youd think i was building an engine in what all i have to go thrue to load.... but i love it..  my load is under the black powder forum under   ffffgdave in the shilo page if your interested.(adress below).  peeps are great for working up loads, get a very good one that you can take off for hunting and cleaning, they go back on with one moa accuracey.. so you could possiblely sight in for 250-300 yards and put it on for that shot.  probably quicker than screwing it up and down..  with black yo have to use a blow tube between shots  and clean up soon after shooting   or you will ruin your very expensive barrel, with smokeless you will not have to blow or clean any where near as much..  im guesing here but if you want to use smokeless you probably should go with 50-70 or 45-70..  the longer cases i think will caouse great panes with smokeless i think. and trouble with black for a beginner... but you need to consult the experts at the shilo forum..  ..  http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php?sid=6d5664e87c2d6968a3bf49d162ae5ccf      good luck dave.

[Ray Newman]

fffffg: you raise some very good points & your comments should be carefully considered.

I agree that the poster should review the info on the Shiloh board.

[fe352v8]

Thanks, Dave and Grand PooBah

I have been toying with this for a couple of years.  It will be strictly black powder and strickly iron sights.  With my Savage 99 using mil spec 7.62 I could hold groups under 5" at 200m with iron sights.  Do not foresee taking shots beyond that.  From a BC prospective I agree totally that 45 calibre would be superior in a manageable rifle as I am not masochistic enough to try a 10 lb ma deuce.  It has been my experience that lower velocity ammunition has less wind drift and if velocity is low than big bullet big hole is more effective on game.  I do not really see myself seriously competing if that was my goal I think I would probably look at the 40 and 45 calibres.  This rifle will mostly be a hunting, plinker, heirloom.  What originally prompted my question was the amount of recoil difference between a 50-70 and 50-90 in an effective hunting load.  It seems that you are somewhat limited in bullet selection with a 50-70 due to case capacity and wanted to be comfortable with the ammunitions ability to effectively take game at 200m and less if I do my part without excessive recoil using a rifle weighing 10 1/2 to 12 lbs.

Thanks for your help and consideration

jon

[fffffg]

these discussions are comon on the shilo board.. you really need to go there. here is a post by kenny, he really knows his stuff.. they are talking extreemly long range with the 50.  1000 yards.. but it starts to realize some of the problems you are encountering.. i think the 5o was for big holes in big game at close ranges..  i belive 200 meters is at the outer edge of this..  as the 400-500 grain 50 cal is going to have a poorer balistic coeficent and probably be slower in velocity than the 45 with 500 grain bullet and the 45 will have a higher balistic coeeficent..    loading problems with the 5os over the 50 70 could also be a big job.. it took me two years to break one moa with my 45 -70 and its considered a walk in the park compared to a 45-90.. i think you would be happy with the 50-70 or the 50-90 if you dont mind recoil, if when your older you dont like recoil anymore like me it cant be loaded downeasily with accuracy, low fouling etc.. if you want to shoot 125-150 yards id go with the 50-70... 200 at yards with a range finder will be fine with the 45-70 or 50 if you really know your gun.. ..  i dont get what you r were saying about lower velocity bullets haveing less windrift..  i think with the same bullet the reverse is true..  you may be talking about using a longer heavier bullet with higher balistic coefficint bullet that will have to have less velocity in the same gun..  in this case the 45s again will have the best balistic coeficient..      heres what kenny was talking about the 50.  i hope he forgives me for posting it here  but youll see what knowledge that is out there and i simply dont have it, and some of the guys at shilo do..  dave....
 
  Recoil boys! RECOIL!


To get a 50 to have the BC a 45 does you have to push 750gr bullets in the 1300 FPS range. YOU think 45's KICK Wow Try a 50-90 launching a 750 gr slug in a 13 lb rifle. 50-140 HA too much powder TOO MUCH HEAT and YOU will have TONS of fouling.

ALL this theory is well and good. Limiting factors such at a max wt of 15 lbs for the rifle, in the only Major NRA matches, shows that a lot of armchair experts dont know much about Modern LR BPCR matches.

38 to 40 inch barrels? right if your shooting SLUG GUNS at 200 yards. Fouling issues with BPCR would put you out of business in 2 or 3 shots. WHY??

Barrel heat, Dry Temps and low Humidty. Like Raton NM where the National championships are held.

We have a few 50-90 shooters still, it was all the rage about 3 years ago great in theory, YET TO BE PROVEN. And most shooters have went back to 45 caliber most by far and large the 45-90.

The king of BPCR LR is a 45 cal bullet in the 530 to 570 gr range. THEY WIN all the time. It does not much mater what platform you lauch it from be it a 45-90 (by Far the MOST COMMON) and it WINS! or a 45-100 or a 45-110.

If the weight limit rules were suspended say like at my Match for instance,

I would still use a 45-90 or a 45-110 with a 22 lb rifle and it would be perfect, Paul Jones or Brooks Creedmoor bullet in the 540 to 570 gr range.

In actual practice the 45's simpley win!


Kenny Wasserburger
_________________
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter