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Offline IntrepidWizard

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First post, and a liberal too!
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2004, 05:29:05 AM »
I'm trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my head so I'll know how to vote come November. Right now, we have one guy saying one thing. Then the other guy says something else. Who do we believe? Lemme see; have I got this straight?

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good..
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad..

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists- good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...
Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam turned over for trial - bad...
Ahh, it's so confusing!
Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average tax burden on Americans, and then calculates the "Tax Freedom Day". This is the day after which the money you earn goes to you, not the government. This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's the earliest it has been since 1991. Its
latest day ever was May 2nd, which occurred in 2000. Notice anything special
about those dates?

Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are
actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave no explanation and provided no data for this claim.

Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are wealthy men.
Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas. Kerry owns 4 mansions, all worth several million dollars. (His ski resort home in Idaho is an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. Not your average A-frame).

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year; Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own
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Offline jh45gun

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First post, and a liberal too!
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2004, 05:39:30 AM »
"A final note, I am neither Michael Moore, John Kerry nor Whoopi Goldberg. I don't agree with everything they say or do, so condemning them won't make a lick of difference with changing my mind."

I will not speak for every one here but as far as the obove statement goes I do not agree with ANY thing they say! I would suppose most of the guys here would agree.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2004, 05:48:20 AM »
"Education does not make people right, but it does provide good arguments"


Problem is most of these folks after they are "educated" Feel they are always right. I suppose because since they have all that "education they feel how can they be wrong. Problem is they are wrong a lot of the time and will not admit it.
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Online ironglow

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« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2004, 11:46:47 AM »
Read Intrepid wizard's posted list.....
   
     Those are good examples of the "Liberal logic" I was speaking about!
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2004, 05:15:12 AM »
Quote from: badbo

I should have known better than to even make a passing mention of the subject of education
:roll:  :roll:  :roll: ...and several here should have known better than to even make a passing attempt at refuting so-called "logic" of a troll, say Dali Llama.
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Offline NYH1

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« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2004, 05:22:27 AM »
Quote from: TM7
I've had the opportunity to reside in rural and urban regions. My observations of the urban liberal mindset:
....1] abortion, urbanites want their abortions without hindrance at anytime, anywhere, and without deeper thought.

.................TM7


I do think there is a time and a place for abortion's.
In "SOME" cases it makes sense. Take rape or incest or even a 13 year old girl getting pregnant. Or if there is a medical risk to the mother!
I am in no way saying it should be used as a form of birth control! People that use it as a form of birth control have a serious problem!
 I am not "pro abortion", I am "pro" doing the right thing for everyone involved under the circumstances. I think George W. Bush feels the same way. He's not for all abortion's, but sometimes it does make sense!

This is just my opinion, I respect anyone's opinion that differ's from mine!
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Offline badbo

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First post, and a liberal too!
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2004, 07:26:35 AM »
TM7,

Some of your generalizations are true of many liberals, some are just as likely to be true of conservatives, and some are true of very few people indeed.  But  I've always believed that generalization, while unavoidable as a method of making sense of things, turns into prejudice when it influences my actions, including discourse.  Each one of your points is a topic worth talking about in its own right, but generalizations don't make very good arguments.

j45gun,

Fair enough point about education.  I got a lot of flack in college for writing papers arguing that the 2nd amendment should allow us to protect ourselves from more than ducks, and as the saying goes, "there are lies, d&*! lies, and statistics".  However, people use lots of reasons to avoid reconsidering beliefs and assumptions and education is only one of them.

Cheers,
Bo
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Offline big medicine

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« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2004, 10:54:01 AM »
I know people abuse welfare but I know others truly need it. I find may conservatives views to almost greedy when it came to this issue.

You should have to see the abuse first hand every day, then I believe you would probably have a "greedy" view also. I have been in health care since I got out of the military in 1988. I had to work full time evenings to put myself through school because I never "qualified" for loans or grants. I did get to see welfare mom's get everything paid for rent, daycare, medicade for insurance, and of course school. Why, because they were irresponsible. Now I get to see it on an even grander scale everyday. People who can and should be out working, but choose not to. The rest of us get to provide their beer and smokes money, plus rent and of course the cartblanch medicade card that gives them "the right" to abuse the system anytime day or night. I have the "privilege" of having to drag my six up out of bed at all times of the night to take care of their crap that has been going for days if not weeks or months. They are usually "too busy" to come in during the day to be seen. The rest of us who have to pay for health care get hammered by our insurance if we abuse the system, but these people get to abuse it any time day or night because they have that "right"

Mean while I get to see good hard working people who bust their six every day trying to make a living. Many can not afford insurance, and dont "qualify" for help, why because they are responsible enough to have a job.

The really sad part about welfare is that those who really do need some help cant get it, those that do not deserve it get it all. I believe that government has created a monster where the greater the irresponsibility, the greater the reward. You bet, become a drug addict and get disability because you cant work, because of your drug addiction, and guess who gets to pay? The greedy working people.
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2004, 11:13:30 AM »
BIG MEDICINE. There ya go making sense again. POWDERMAN.  :D  :D  :D  :D
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Online ironglow

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« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2004, 12:23:19 PM »
TM7...I can see that your view is not just an opinion; but rather a position arrived at through many years of "hands on " experience. Such wisdom is valuable to the more inexperienced...if they will be willing to welcome and assimilate it..Thanks..

   Big  medicine;
     Wow; you're not alone...yes; I agree that there is a percentage of cases where Medicaid is needed and perhaps deserved....but there are too many that are simply socialism's parasites.
    The county on the map of NY that is above  and to the left of me (to the left in more than one way..lol) is Erie county; the county that Buffalo is located in .
There is a big bruhaha going on there right now, and I hear the fallout everyday on the radio in my shop.
  Erie county's chief executive is in a wrangle with the state capital in Albany.
  The state govt. mandated the most liberal medicaid program in the nation; one that even provides for free elective "beautifying" plastic surgery (not for scars, deformities...but just patients cosmetic desires).

  NY State is great at mandating programs...the state demands; the locals pay.
  In that county, Buffalo covers perhaps 10-15% of the land area, but uses almost 100% of the medicaid..the suburbs and rural areas have to foot the bill...

   HERE'S THE SHOCKER! Mandated Medicaid absorbs 100% of the property tax revenues....that's what the county exec is announcing over the radio in his "war" with Albany fat cats.

 This is a case where the powers to be in the state govt. are all from that big money vacuum cleaner called NEW YORK CITY..

    Truly, the inmates are running the asylum!!!
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2004, 12:51:30 PM »
Here in Kalitaxia I know of several families that are third and fourth generation Welfare people and when we have our Chrismas hand outs all of them come.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: First post, and a liberal too!
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2004, 08:44:59 PM »
Quote from: badbo
Hi folks,
 
First, let me tell you how much I've enjoyed this forum for the last couple of months.  I've been doing a lot of research lately on hunting rifles and searches on these forums have always yielded knowledgeable, insightful advice from a very supportive community.  After enjoying some antelope meat that a friend shared with me, and as I look forward to the possibility of moving west next spring, I've been excitedly reading all of your posts regarding NEF/H&R rifles, mods, calibers and loads.  Fantastic stuff.  Handi in a .270 is the current frontrunner I think.
 
I grew up in rural Massachusetts in a great blue collar town, Lee.  I got my Firearms ID card on my 15th birthday, and my Remington 870 Express the next day.  Some of the happiest memories of my childhood involved frigid mornings, corn fields, goose decoys, good hunting buddies and a quirky black lab.  The deer were nowhere nearly as cooperative as the geese, though, and the biggest bird I saw turkey hunting was the chickadee that landed on my gun barrel.  
 
I have a criticism, hopefully constructive, to offer, though.
 
One thing I've noticed here is the casual disdain heaped on opposing political views in these forums.  Having a substantially different opinion of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment than others in the Democratic party, I can pretty much count on having an issue of contention with just about anyone I talk politics with.  However, I've also found that no matter what differences I may have with someone, I'm almost always able to discuss it civilly without belittling their convictions.  
 
How we talk about each other matters, even with people who share our beliefs.  Our history is full of examples of partnership and respect in spite of disagreement, starting with Adams and Jefferson, and extending today to Warner and Levin.  When we start looking at each other as caricatures, it reduces our capacity to find constructive compromise and common ground, without which we wouldn't have such an enduring Constitution to begin with.
 
I spent two months in Kansas this summer with my folks during a family illness.  They moved there several years ago, and we have all immensely enjoyed the state and its people.  Almost to a person, the community has been as welcoming, hospitable and gracious as can be.  We've also had a great time shooting clay pidgeons and criminal milk jugs in the back pasture with Dad's .308.  And don't even get me started on the money we've spent on 4th of July fireworks!  Talk about shock and awe!  Knowing so many good people there, most of whom are Republican, I'm sure, makes it impossible for me to belittle their beliefs.  I may disagree with them, sometimes vehemently, and I may even try to change their minds about a particular issue, but I will not insult my parents' friends and neighbors by mocking their convictions.
 
I live in New York City now, due to work.  On 9/11 I literally felt the shockwave from the first impact and watched the World Trade Center fall from my living room window.  I smelled its acrid stench for the next weeks, as I, like my neighbors watched F-16's circle overhead and winced at the sound of every jet engine.  But the people of New York are as resilient as any in the world, and we continue our pursuit of enterprise and enjoyment of all of the city's cultural offerings, in spite of the bullseye that remains tattooed on it.  On tuesday, I stood in line for 30 minutes along with several hundred people, some of whom were voting for the first time as American citizens, to pull every last democratic lever in the booth.  I  have reasons for voting this way, informed by a moral Christian upbringing.  
 
My point is (finally) that as I continue to enjoy this forum and its wonderful discussions, I would hope you do yourselves the service of respecting the decency, if not the different political beliefs, of the people you've not had the pleasure of meeting.  I may also weigh in from time to time on the pot bellied stove forum in threads that seek truth, not derision.  
 
Cheers,
Bo

 
Well doggy...lookie what we got here...a liberal(read wolf) in sheeps clothing trying to be just "one of the boys"...calling for open honest dialog on political issues and guns and hunting...please.......
 
Lets take a look at what and how you said hello shall we....this part really told me what you feel about anyone who doesn't  think as you do...
 
Quote
Knowing so many good people there, most of whom are Republican, I'm sure, makes it impossible for me to belittle their beliefs. I may disagree with them, sometimes vehemently, and I may even try to change their minds about a particular issue, but I will not insult my parents' friends and neighbors by mocking their convictions

 
Normally...when one feels or has a need to " Mock" anyone...it is taken in the derogatory sense...hence you feel superior in your own fuzzy logic over the convictions of your parents friends and neighbors...while showing respect to them...perhaps a Freudian slip???
 
You said....
Quote
On tuesday, I stood in line for 30 minutes along with several hundred people, some of whom were voting for the first time as American citizens, to pull every last democratic lever in the booth.  I  have reasons for voting this way, informed by a moral Christian upbringing.  

 
Are you saying your parents are the reason you vote a straight Democratic ticket...that their conservative beliefs drove you to vote this way...or perhaps a change of your own lifestyle drove you to embrace a homosexual loving party,a party of gun hating people ...so bent on warping the Constituion of this country...that the old rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah would have been proud?
 
A-lot can be told of a person...in the things he writes...or doesn't come right out and say...and feighning a hunting background and voting a staight democratic ticket...is totally assine...and will I stereotype you...you betcha....you pardner are the worst type of individual around...you want to fit in and can't...because you own beliefs are warped...you feel for some reason that the Democratic party is the best party to vote in...and yet the leaders of your party...take away your most important right,every chance they get...your right to defend yourself...your family...and your friends...they want you to be dependant on the police...who by the ruling of the US Supreme Court...doesn't have a legal responsibity for your safety in an emergency....
 
Yes...I'll typecast you...by your own admission of voting a straight party ticket...you've shown that you are a brainwashed idiot...either to stupid to vote for the individual..best suited for the office...or just to damn lazy to put forth the effort to understand all the canidates positions on the  policies and then vote for the best one...instead you take the easy way out...but that's the way of a liberal mind.....and that's from being brainwashed...
 
You say you want others to respect your positions and remain civil...HOGWASH...that's not what you really want...you want a forum to spew the same liberal lies that have been force fed us under every Democratic leadership... and keep us from venting our hatred of any party or individual that..wants to...or... allows it to,or ...helps it to   ... stip our constitutional rights away from us....and then you want no personal attacks on you "character" or your beliefs..even though most everything that a Liberal Democrat wants or believes in makes most conservative Republicans want to spew chunks in that Democrats face.....remain civil....sorry...it ain't gonna fly with me...
 
 
Other than that feel free to state any opinion you have on any subject...but when you do...be prepared for a-lot of pent up anger over the Democrat Solution..and their agenda for the disarmenent of this nations civilian population....because it is remnant to the Nazi's Party solution for disarmenent in Germany in the 1930's....and that will never be tolerated or discussed civilly...
 
Mac
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2004, 09:42:56 PM »
Ah come on Mac, quit beating around the bush and tell us how ya REALLY feel.  :-D  Kinda, sorta, nearly, almost a slip beyond our normal boundaries but this liberal really needed it and ya beat me to it.  :eek:

He says he came here originally based on an interest in guns and since this is after all in the NEF area that interest should lie in the NEF guns area. But his introduction sounds much like Kerry's litany on how much of a hunter and gun owner he is. So far not one single word has he posted on any gun related area of the site. Only here and only political garbage spewed by all liberals. His time here maybe drawing short if that continues.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2004, 09:43:15 PM »
Well said Mac.  :grin:
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2004, 03:37:23 AM »
This is the way the so-called moderate liberals operate...I have to deal with their kind everyday...they insist upon being civil...and by doing so...their goal is to take away the individuals means of expression,while at the same time subvert it to their own agenda...by..be-littling him on a intelectual level if he shows anger...it's a trap they play you see...if they can get you to listen to their lies,mistrurths,misinformation, without showing any emotion,they know thier doctren is working...they win...and if you do show any emotion or anger...they can sit back and mock you for that...they seem to think it's beneath them and that their level of reasoning is so superiour to anyone elses...they say things like...".too bad...we tried to reason with him....but he just wouldn't be civil about it....." it's a lose-lose situation until everone knows it for what it truely is...ERRRRRRRRRR  :twisted:  that just burns my butt having to deal with them....you'll see what I mean...this one either will continue his tactic of only answering the statements that attack his personality without defending his party or he will simple leave...you see...most resonable peoples apithy is to live and let live...these are the ones who are most likly to be targeted by his type...those are the ones who can be easily manipulated...but I  know his and his party plans...and I certanly know his tactics...and I'll call them as I see them...these are the scouts...the Democrates send out to sow their seeds of discord amonst us...see them and reconize them for what they truely are...... LIARS AND SUBVERTERS OF THE CONSTITUTION......     they are so-much easier to deal with once you do.....


Mac
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2004, 05:15:13 AM »
Shucks !!  I just kept my Republican Conservative Damn Yankee mouth shut on this one.
If I'd have known that I could stick it to him, I would have opened up with both barrels 2 pages ago.
I always get left out of the fun stuff.


I know of very few democraps who love guns, hunting, fishing, or do much of anything other than think of ways to solve the countries problems by claiming to have solutions rather than actually controlling the problem.
As to welfare, I for one am sick of it, and here in Nassau County of the Rotten Apple, where tax burdens are some of the highest in the nation, I come to find out that taxes are so high because of the large amount of "welfare" recepients that live in this county.
It is time for serious welfare reform.  
If you can and do work and just aren't making ends meet, I don't mind supplementing your income.
I have a huge problem just paying people to stay home which I pay for, drink alcohol, smoke crack, make babies, gain inordinate amounts of weight, smoke pot, shoot heroin, etc., and giving them medical and educational benefits to boot.
I work my a$$ off and don't have this, why should they.
No worky, no money.
End of story.
Get a job or starve.


Just my .03
Ranger
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2004, 12:48:54 PM »
"THE HELL WITH THE STUPID"Oilboy is back in town and called hisself up Stupid again.You Libs have nothing good to say about anything.
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2004, 12:59:32 PM »
God has blessed me with healthy ,intellegent Great Grandchildren,not many can say that ----can they Oilboy.
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Offline Hooker

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« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2004, 01:15:11 PM »
olemailman, Actually the bible says you don't work you don't eat.
Charity is for those who need it, not for those who demand it. Incase you don't know it the best motivation for a person to help them selves is hunger. Yeah let them starve, If they starve to death it's their own fault.
And if they are that lazy and stupid the world is a better place with out them.
I and most others here  will gladly help anyone who trys to help them selves. But I my self have no use for shiftless people or the candy giver liberals who pander to them. :evil:  :evil:

Pat
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2004, 01:41:33 PM »
Thank you Hooker and Wiz.
Old Oil digger, as to your comment about answering to G-d, if you read my post and as Hooker stated, I don't mind at all helping those who are truly in need.  This is exactly as G-d commands.
I do have a problem perpetuating generation after generation of people who have learned no more than how to take without ever giving back.
I know exactly how I am going to answer G-d.
What, pray tell, will your answer be ???  Will you proudly tell G-d how you had no problem with our leaders soaking hard working Americans to keep people lazy forever ?  
How your idea of helping those in need was to just hand them everything  at the expense of others ?

What about teaching a man to fish ?  That is in your good book.

Shame on YOU !!!  Damn liberal.  I wish you and all your ilk and all the people who you want to just give my hard earned money to so they can have what I don't even have, would go to the South Pole and make a go of it.  
People like you just pi$$ me off.  

Take Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, Soros, Fienstien, Schumer, Brady, The Klinton Klan and all of Hollywood with you too.

You couldn't survive 1 month without government handouts.
Ranger
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Offline Major

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« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2004, 01:46:49 PM »
Coming into this so late I will only say AMEN to what hooker just said.
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2004, 01:47:44 PM »
Ranger ,Ranger calm down ,you left so many out and you sent them to a cold place,that is a no ,no-----Iran is where they need to go or PRK,I am ashamed of your onesided atittude. :grin:
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2004, 01:49:17 PM »
Quote from: IntrepidWizard
Ranger ,Ranger calm down ,you left so many out and you sent them to a cold place,that is a no ,no-----Iran is where they need to go or PRK,I am ashamed of your onesided atittude. :grin:

Yeah, me too !!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2004, 01:51:12 PM »
Next you will be telling us the Yassir thats my baby is alive-------again!
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
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Offline RIFLERANGER

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« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2004, 01:52:36 PM »
Quote from: IntrepidWizard
Next you will be telling us the Yassir thats my baby is alive-------again!


I won't sleep or eat until he is dead.
He probably already is, but they don't want to let the news out until they have things in place.

Ranger
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2004, 04:38:21 PM »
Calm down guys. I remember olemailman from the old board. He is usually farther to the left than most of us but he always struck me as a decent guy. I don't ever remember him calling anyone names or being rude. We can do better than this. POWDERMAN.  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?
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Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2004, 04:40:32 PM »
Powder,your memory is dimming.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Online ironglow

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« Reply #87 on: November 09, 2004, 04:42:23 PM »
Olemailman..

   Now you're lecturing us on what the Bible says...you should quote book, line & verse...
    I feel quite assured that everyone on this string would like to see that anyone that is truly deserving ..should be helped; preferrably temporarily...indefinitely if necessary.
   Most of us also believe that the lazy should not be given a "free ride".
There is a HUGE difference between CAN'T work and WON'T work!

    "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."  (2 thess 3:10)

    When you cite the scriptures, you should include book,line & verse....
  Just as when you quote anyone...

  God is a God of love...but He also is a God of justice!
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If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline big medicine

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« Reply #88 on: November 09, 2004, 06:20:16 PM »
Olemailman,
I guess I dont see it as "talking tough or mean" it is calling it like it is. I get to see this BS first hand day in and day out. Young healthy people who should be out working, but choose not to for any number of reasons, and the rest of us support them. I for one would rather see my money go to help someone that deserves some help. I would have no problem helping some guy to have insurance for his family, that is out bringing in a paycheck supporting his family, but has a job that doesnt have bennies like insurance, or helping a low income family with daycare. The key word here is income. People who are productive doing something for themselves. Or helping the elderly on fixed incomes, people who have been productive. But this BS of supporting some lazy worthless POS that chooses not to work, let them starve. They take from the real people who could use the help! Cant and dont want to are seperate things.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2004, 07:05:27 PM »
Cripes since Kerry lost the liberals are coming out of the woodwork! Guess they have nothing else constructive to do with their time now!  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)
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Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.
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