full length or neck size?

[Kivaari]

Talking to SSK the other day they indicated that all their die sets were with a full length sizer. They were explaining to me that you needed to fl size with the contender....two or three loadings and you need to bump the shoulder for successful breeching......hmmm...

I'd always figured this was a neck size situation if there was one.....does the pressure/brass growth necessitate full length sizing . I suppose you could neck size if you had a bump die based on what they were saying...

What do you guys do?

[KN]

On bottle neck cases I full length size. If your case becomes too tight in the chamber it will cause lockup problems that will drive you nuts. It really does't take much to cause this and a lot of people want to blame the pistol for the problems when its really an ammo problem. I know, I've been there - done that. It surfaces as light primer strikes and every one assumes theres some thing wrong with the firing pin or spring. The problem is actually that the barrel lugs didn't engage far enough to completely move the block out of the way. But for straight wall cases like the 444 and the 45/70 it doesn't seem to be a problem. I usually resize those just enough to get a good tight fit for the bullet.   KN

[Mayor of Hobbs Knob]

KN, I'm interested in your comments about misfires caused by cases with the shoulders not set back far enough.  I'm a new reloader and have been pestered with misfire problems--  mostly with my .30 Herrett and .256 WM.  I have assumed that misfires were caused primarilly by to much headspace caused by the shoulders being set to far back.  To solve that I have been sizing so that chamber fit is tight and lockup is just a bit difficult.  Thought that should do it.  Was puzzled that I still got misfires.  Have I got that right, or am I still missing something?  Your take on the problem tells me that tight shoulder fit can be as bad as loose, and I really have to go back to the drawing board and get those shoulders exactly right.  I love reloading as part of "Contenderitis", but, frankly, sometimes it makes me crazy!

Mayor

[Duffy]

Mayor,
What you may be getting is a little too much shoulder length that is barely keeping the rim away from the bbl. When you fire the brass flexes and cushions the pin blow. Might also check to make sure you are getting your primers seated firmly also. On the misfires check to see if the primer hit is centered the same as the ones that fire. If the bbl doesnt close completly and the lugs arent fully engaged it won't release the block all the way and can slow down the hammer strike.
I added the Stoney Point headspace adaptors to my OAL gauge set and use that to check my brass. On lighter loads I can usually get two and maybe three neck sizings then have to go with the FL. The gauge makes it easy to set the die and cull through the brass instead of using the gun. I set mine so that the bbl snaps shut completly without any extra effort. You can hear the difference when it "snaps" or just thuds shut. Accuracy improved also! Even though they can shoot all the rifle rounds those frames still are not as strong as a bolt rifle and there is some flexing going on which lets the brass stretch more. On the factory bbls that are less than perfectly bored I think it's a bit better to have a slightly loose fit anyway.

Just my 2 cents

Ryan

[Mayor of Hobbs Knob]

The Stoney Point sounds interesting.  Specifically, what it is and where can I get one.  This just might be my answer to consistent shoulders,  

Thanks

[Duffy]

Go to www.stoneypoint.com and look in the reloading section under the head and shoulders gauge.
Midsouth Shooters suppy has them and Cabelas too. I'm sure theres more. You only need one arbor or holder that clamps to your caliper as it works for the oal inserts as well.
It simply measures from the datum line (center of the shoulder) to the case head. Very simple. For instance on my 708 if the cases measure 3.230 they fit very tightly so I bump the shoulder back so they measure 3.225 and they chamber nicely. You need to remember that if you just partially FL size a case it will grow in length! So that's why sometimes when you use a FL die to neck size the case will not always fit. Hope I didn't confuse you.
Ryan

[billjoe]

I've have the same problem with the shoulders not being far enough back on my 6.5JDJ.  I learned that after sending the barrel to SSK and some ammo and that is what they told me.  Now that I have this brass all loaded, how can I resize them?  I can pull the bullets and dump the powder, but what about the primers?  or do I need to toss the brass (not my choice).  I assume you should never put a primed case into a sizer die?
bj

[Duffy]

I would pull the bullets, save the powder, remove the decapping pin from your sizer die and resize them, and load em back up. You should leave the expander ball in the die just take out the decapping pin. Just keep turning the die into the press an eighth of a turn at a time until the action will close nicely and then maybe a tad more. Might have to try it on a couple of cases to get it consistant and try not to get lube in the case that could get down to the primer.

[Bob C]

I use a sharpy to mark the case neck and shoulder, and then I adjust the sizing die until it just kisses the junction of neck and shoulder.  

The sharpy mark makes it very easy to see where on the case the die contacts, and tumbling the brass enough to get the lube off also removes the sharpy stuff.

This works for me on bottle neck cartridges, rimmed or not, belted or not, in a T/C or in a bolt action.

[KN]

Mayor of Hobbs Knob,  You are correct that too little headspace can be just as bad as too much and cause miss-fires in your contenders.   KN

[MnMike]

I hate to go against the prevailing wisdom, but I have had good luck with neck resizing. On my .223, using the Lee collet die has improved my groups and almost eliminated case trimming. With the 7-30 Waters, (since Lee doesn't make a collet die for it) I set the full length resizing die to almost touch the shoulder using only mica as a lube. It also seems to work well but I do have to trim cases.

Just my opinion

mike

[sgtt]

If you use your FL sizers to neck size, you will find that the case will lengthen at the shoulder datum.  The brass has to go somewhere.

[hunt4570]

I have the oppisite problem....No matter what I do I can't get my shoulders to go forward,I've tried to set things up to ajust headspace from the shoulders but the case always go's into the bbl loose,what am I doing wrong? Also how do you determine when the brass has been loaded to many times?  SGB

[MnMike]

I have had to size new cases by using a medium load with the bullet seated out enough to be hitting the lands. It should be stiff to close. After shooting that, the case should fit your chamber and you can load normally. This is fireforming. It is normally used to make one tyoe of brass from another ie. 7-30 from 30-30.

mike