Zuave..won't shoot for spit

[R J Talley]

OK, I've got a problem and I can't figure it out. Three years ago I bought a brand new  Zuave from Dixie Gun Works. From the start it just hasn't wanted to shoot. I get three shots in a 24" circle widely dispersed and wide left of center. After that, the shots go every which way. If I clean, they go back for three shots and then all over the place...as much at 15 feet left and three to ten feet high.

This went on for a couple of years and then I had a bright idea. I would change the sights to something more definitive. I bought a set of rear sights from the 1895 model Krag and had them installed. No help. Today was the damned worst I've ever shot this thing. I never hit the paper once either at 50 or at 100yrds.  

The bullet is a traditional Minne from a Lee mould. The Lube has been everything from Bore Butter and SPG to Crisco, Lard and my latest, a mix of Lard, Beeswax, Ivory bar soap and castor oil and a tad of carnauba.

The powder has been GOEX 2F, 1F, 3F, Pyrodex RS Select and triple 7. The caps have been Navy Arms Musket caps and I switched nipples and used #11 Remington and CCI caps. Nothing...Zip,

I cleaned the bore carefully with soap and hot water, I poured boiling water down the barrel, I checked the bore with a bore light and it's clean and polished. The rifling is shallow and wide but clearly defined. A tight patch meets the same resistance all the way down and back up.  I even had the trigger honed. Nothing. This gun just won't shoot. So, any ideas?

[jgalar]

If the crown isn't messed up I would try a different bullet mold or different bullet style. Try the Lee REAL. Are you using pure lead?

[R J Talley]

The crown is perfect...just like the bore. The bullets are pure lead. I'm going to try a roundball first. I know the barrel isn't rifled for it but it's the cheapest change to make right now. The next move after that will be a different bullet.

[filmokentucky]

omgb- if you are casting your own minies, you need to weigh them. It's
very easy to get a variation in weight. Also, make sure the skirts aren't deformed. I use pure lead for my minies and get good results. I think the
heavier ones work best. They also can be fussy as to powder charge, but generally will work best with 60 to 70 grains of ffg. Everyone I know that has a Zouave gets good accuracy with it, but they had to work up a load and then stay with it. As with any muzzleloader, consistency will pay off.

[R J Talley]

I've been running the loads from 60-80 grns with 65 being the most consistant. Over the years, with other guns, I found that if you load much more than 80 grns the skirts blow and accuracy goes to hell pretty quick. You may be on to something with the weight. Though the bullets look good, there might be a problem with voids. I'll have to check that. Thanks.

[l.cutler]

The minies you are using are probably too small.  They should be no more than .002 under bore size.  There is a lot of variation in bore size on these rifles, some as large as .584.  You really should measure the bore.  You can do this by pushing a larger lead slug through and then measure it, or you may be able to measure it at the muzzle.   Get the proper size bullet, and use a moderate powder charge, start around 50 gr. of ffg and work up a little.  The standard load for the Civil War rifle muskets was about equivalent to 60 gr of ffg.  If you have no way to measure the bore you could probably have a gunsmith do it, or get some different size minies and keep using larger ones until you find one that works well.  Don't give up, Zouaves are usually great shooters.

[nohorse]

I know this isn't gonna help much but my 2nd BP rifle years back was an Italian zouave.  I bought it new in the box and it was a beauty to look at. Regretfully I had the same problem. I never was able to get the gun on target and to this day I still don't know why and I've shot BP since I was a teenager. I mean it threw lead eveywhere, like you said, and had no consistent pattern.  Bummer. I eventually gave it to a reenactor to shoot blanks out of.  It worked out great for that!!  I never bought another one....

[R J Talley]

It's kinda funny really. I've been shooting BP since 1976 and this is the first gun I've seen that performs this way. Well, not exactly. I once had a Navy Arms Hawken Hunter of the type Val Forgett used to take an elephant. His load was 180 grns of 3F, a 600 grn Shilo Stake Buster slug and musket caps.  I tried every trick in the book including refacing the hammer to get that gun to fire a cap. Nothing. Finally, I sent the lock into NA and had them replace the spring. Bingo, now it shot. But 180 grns of 3F? No way. The dang gun recocked itself on 120 grns and had enough blow back out of the nipple that it sometimes blew my cap off. I traded it to a buddy who wanted it for some semi-custom project. Any way, I'm going to try a larger minnie. First though, I'm going to see if I can slug the barrel. I'll let you guys know if this works.

[filmokentucky]

I always toss the first few minies back into the pot--basically I just use them to be sure the mold is up to proper temperature--and then I weigh the rest and re-melt any light ones. I make sure there is an even amount of lube in the grooves.
   The best information I found is that they used a charge of 2and 1/2 drams or 68 grains of ffg in the rifle muskets. This is what I've used for years. I use this charge and a .575 minie in my Parker Hale '53 Enfield and get good results. It's an old gun--one of the English ones-- and it's got a lot of miles on it, but it just seems to get better with age. The actual bore is .577 and I believe the close fitting minie is the biggest factor in the accuracy equation. The beeswax/tallow lube makes reloading no problem and I wipe occasionally, maybe every tenth shot. I really think that with some time and effort you can get your Zouave shooting accurately, if the bore checks out o.k.

[R J Talley]

I'm going to assume the bullet is too small and begin there. I wanted to try a patched RB first thinking that if a over-sized bore is the issue then a patched RB shouls show some improvement. I know shallow rifling and a rapid twist are not the best in RB guns but I figure that even if the groups were 20 inches it would be better than what I'm facing now.  what do you think? Have any of you tried RBs in a Zouave musket before?

[filmokentucky]

Most rifle-muskets will shoot patched R.B.s accurately because they have a fairly slow rate of twist. My Enfield has something like a 1 in 72" rate of twist and handles balls with no problem. I'm not sure what the Zouave has for a rate of twist, but I know that they generally will do o.k. with balls. Usually the tighter the ball and patch combination, the better the groups.

[R J Talley]

My Zouave was made by Armi. Dixie, from whom I bought it, claims that it's .580 across the lands and .596 in the grooves with a 1/48 twist. That's fast for RBs but my guess is that it will work. Dixie further recommends .577 conicals and .570 RBs. My present conicals are the standard .575 variety.  So, armed with that info my guess is that I need a mould for larger conicals. Any ideas?

[l.cutler]

Your rifle may or may not be a .580, there is a great variation from gun to gun.  It depends on the condition of the rifling cutters on the particular day of manufacture.  I would buy some .577 minies from Dixie before buying a mold.  If they work well, then go for the mold.  If they are better, but not good, then you may need some larger.  That is where it gets tricky,  you may be able to find larger bullets without buying a mold but it will take some looking.  Like I said, hang in there.  I shot black powder for over twenty years before trying a rifle musket, and my first one gave me fits!  They are a whole different breed of animal.  They can shoot round ball fairly well, and it is the easier way out.  However, they were designed to shoot the Minie ball, and when you find the right combination it is well worth the extra work!

[jgalar]

Lee makes 2 types of oversized mini molds. They are both cheap enough that they might be worth a try

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1100003772.866=/html/catalog/blackpow.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/494551

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/118597

[Ramrod]

Some of the flat based bullets work well in a 1-48" twist. The Lee REAL is one alot of guys swear by. I have had very good luck also with TC maxi-hunters, and at 560 grains they pack a wallop. They wallop your wallet pretty good too. :cry:  Round balls should also shoot well if you don't try to push them too fast. If you can't get anything to work you probably have a bedding problem, an easy fix with a little Acraglas from Brownells.

[Cowpox]

I had a rifled musket from Navy Arms back in the late 70s. I had the same problems you are describing, plus ramming kept becoming more difficult with every shot. Back then, every Dixie Gun Works catalog had several pages of tips on shooting black powder near the back. While reading in that tips section, I found one that suggested filling the hollow base on Minnie Balls with Crisco (about the only lube mentioned in those days). I tried it, and it started shooting decent. Not a tack driver, but acceptable 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards. I think the skirt opens to tightly to allow enough lube to get back from the lube grooves, where it will keep the fouling soft, especially in those wide shallow rifling grooves. Anyway, getting that big gob of grease in the base of the bullet sure made a difference. Never used it in a hunting situation where melting Crisco might soak through the powder, but the modern lubes should alleviate that problem. Won't cost much to see if it will help your problem.  cowpox