Author Topic: Can somebody explain Pres. Bush's...  (Read 1671 times)

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TM7

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Can somebody explain Pres. Bush's...
« on: November 10, 2004, 10:06:09 AM »
...position on illegal immigration??? It seems he wants to extend ammesty to 13 million illegal aliens and then grant citizenship to them. I heard Michelle Malkin going on about this and she stated it is a very grave error.
So what is the thinking on this immigration position, because I just don't get it?


thanx...................TM7

Offline badbo

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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2004, 11:29:31 AM »
A couple of possible reasons come to mind:

1.  The hispanic vote
2.  Bringing a large segment of the working population onto the books, where it's easier to enforce labor laws and collect income taxes
3.  To avoid potential embarassment at a photo op in the Southwest :-)
4.  To shift the status quo of dependence on illegal immigrants for working class labor.

I've heard the biggest downside of this is suggesting to others who would come illegally that they need only escape detection by the INS long enough and they'll be grandfathered in.
Love your enemies, for they tell you your faults
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2004, 12:37:05 PM »
Only a liberal would come up with no 3. :roll:
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Hooker

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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2004, 01:03:11 PM »
Do ya'll smell something? Whew I think one of them liberal losers done crawled up in here and died. It could be a live one spewing gas. GB could we get one of them Glade Plugins things to put in here?

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
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Offline badbo

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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2004, 01:43:43 PM »
Quote from: jh45gun
Only a liberal would come up with no 3. :roll:


And conservatives accuse liberals of not having a sense of humor.  Lighten up! I put in a smiley face and everything.

Hooker, mind your manners.
Love your enemies, for they tell you your faults
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Offline Hooker

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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2004, 06:45:18 PM »
Lighten up badbo I said it witha smile on my face. Well more like a smirk :lol:

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2004, 07:26:46 PM »
Why is it...those damn liberals always have to stir up a ruckus everywhere they flop...ohhh...I forgot....he's just Trolling now isn't he.....

Mac
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Offline VTDW

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Can somebody explain Pres. Bush's...
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2004, 12:35:24 AM »
Maybe badbo needs to try this link:

http://www.antiyou.com/

Dave :D
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2004, 02:30:06 AM »
Sadly,most of the mexicans here, legal, and illegal, are not interested in becoming Americans. They refuse to adapt to our customs and especially our language. I'm sickof seeing even our polling places marked in spanish too. Learn English,speak it, or LEAVE. If they don't speak English, theres no reason for them to vote. Last month walmart had spanish awareness month. WE ARE ALL AWARE. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline badbo

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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2004, 05:07:19 AM »
Quote from: TM7

...5] do think about you're own sons and daughters being displaced  from the marketplace as we baby boomers retire.
..............TM7


The problem is that recent immigrants - illegal or otherwise - gladly take jobs that most Americans wouldn't even consider, such as custodial work, migrant farm work, etc.  They are an unspoken but integral part of our service economy, and are not competing with us for those jobs.  In fact, they are loved by a lot of small business owners because it lets them get around all kinds of benefits and taxes by paying them minimum wage under the table.  

A copout answer would be to suggest abolishing welfare so those people have an incentive to take those jobs.  However, I'd much rather deal with a grateful, hard working immigrant than the "workfare" workers I come across.  I doubt that even if this was done that all the jobs would be accounted for.
Love your enemies, for they tell you your faults
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Offline Hooker

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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2004, 08:57:14 AM »
Quote from: badbo
[ In fact, they are loved by a lot of small business owners because it lets them get around all kinds of benefits and taxes by paying them minimum wage under the table.  .


There's the problem they don't pay taxes.Yet they are given government benefits, Even though their not citizens. Putting a burden on us that do pay taxes.
I say set up a temp service program tax their wages, and don't give them any benefits unless they become english speaking citizens. If and when their job runs out send them home, until their services are needed again. Our economy doesn't need anymore leaches we've got enough of our own.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline Mauser

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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2004, 10:28:23 AM »
The present breathless love for diversity and multiculturalism by our political and media elites is nothing more than liberal and socialist code for:  The more folks we can get dependant on government the more in power we will be.  The Liberals have it all wrong, this country is great in spite of it's diversity not because of it.  Part of the genius of our founding fathers and their documents is that a system was created whereby people of different backgrounds could live and thrive here (if they were on the same basic page as to their belief system).  Lets face it, for the first 175 years or so of American history, the overwhelming number of immigrants to this country had similar (not identical) beliefs about why they were coming here and what it meant to be an American.  That is simply not the case now.  Too many newcomers to America believe (correctly) that they can vote themselves other folks property and that there is no requirement to get up to speed on language, etc quickly.  We are balkanized.

I'm not making any value judgement on cultures, but when cultures are mixed and some have grievances against the others, the balkanization and ultimate destruction of a nation begins.  That is what we have here.    

Culture matters and people will go to war over it.  Most big city police departments will tell you that they are fighting what is being described as a "fourth generation" war on our streets.  Fourth generation is warfare not between nation states but rather between groups, gangs, terrorists, etc--most of differing cultures, religions, and ethnicity.  GWB's policy (along with that of the left) promises much more of the same.

Offline IntrepidWizard

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Can somebody explain Pres. Bush's...
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2004, 11:44:20 AM »
For Bo and his ilk--------Finally, a bumper sticker for BOTH political parties. The hottest selling bumper sticker comes from New York State: "RUN HILLARY RUN"

Democrats put it on the rear bumper.
Republicans put it on the front bumper
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2004, 01:06:55 PM »
How is it...that an ill-concieved Democratic fiasco...is being acredited to our President and the Republican majority...wasn't it the infamous Governer of Kalifornia that started all of this BS in the first place????? Grey was his name if I do believe...and also...the Governer of Iowa???? Whose impationed pleas for migrint workers to come up and work and live in the state,and get aministy for non-resident status,just  a few  short year ago...I was working in DeMoines when he was on the TV making speaches in this...in 98...


Mac
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Online ironglow

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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2004, 02:58:01 PM »
The President explained his position quite some time ago. It does make sense, even though I wish we did not have to go that route...

   A) He said that we were going to have those illegal workers whether we want them or not.
   B) As it stands today, they hang around a few years...then meld into the society and pretend they are citizens by birth.
  C) By documenting them and having them report periodically and report any movements....we will at least have a handle on who and how many are where..
  D) With a work-permit system, when an illegal is caught without papers, they can more easily be sent home.

  So the Pres. figures we can have better control and accountability of the immigrant worker population...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Num_1_Dad

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Can somebody explain Pres. Bush's...
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2004, 05:03:11 AM »
Quote from: powderman
Sadly,most of the mexicans here, legal, and illegal, are not interested in becoming Americans. They refuse to adapt to our customs and especially our language. I'm sickof seeing even our polling places marked in spanish too. Learn English,speak it, or LEAVE. If they don't speak English, theres no reason for them to vote. Last month walmart had spanish awareness month. WE ARE ALL AWARE. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x


You hit the nail on the head!
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Offline badbo

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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2004, 06:17:35 AM »
Quote from: TM7
Mauser, wise words indeed, wise words...Sort of like: "Those who would sacrifice their Culture for prosperity and economic security deserve neither a Culture, prosperity, or economic security". Or something like that.


TM7, I'd disagree with you partly there.  Preserving your culture is your responsibility, not the Government's, for good reason.  It gets way too close to establishment of state religion.  Hitler was all about preserving good German culture, because it gave him another way to deceive his people.  Even Locke's words of the role of government protecting "life, liberty and property" were changed by Jefferson to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  As large as the government's talent is to screw things up, I prefer that they keep their hands off my family traditions, and beyond that I have no right to dictate them to anyone else.  

I do agree with you, though that many things come before individual monetary gain or physical security.  It was Franklin who said "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."  I think that as long as we preserve the great American virtues of tolerance, liberty and duty while accepting good ideas as they emerge we'll only be stronger.

Cheers,
Bo
Love your enemies, for they tell you your faults
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2004, 06:27:17 AM »
Bo,you been taking "reverse pills"?You seem to be thinking and that is contrary to Liberals.congratulations.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline badbo

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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2004, 08:15:42 AM »
Quote from: IntrepidWizard
Bo,you been taking "reverse pills"?You seem to be thinking and that is contrary to Liberals.congratulations.


Thanks, IntrepidWizard.  Give me some time and we might find some other stuff in common.  Then the arguments will get interesting.   :grin:

Cheers,
Bo
Love your enemies, for they tell you your faults
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Offline badbo

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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2004, 11:20:42 AM »
Quote from: TM7
Just to be brief and to the point, it may indeed be a primary function of elected officials to safeguard and steer the Nation-Culture. And in fact, defacto, this is what they do in their assigned responsibilities; or suppose to be doing. Not doing this wisely, and with abandoning simple demographics can result in Cultural suicide; a death of a culture while applying liberal applications of a strange 'diversity' concoction.
....

 I submit that the overt violent attacks of terrorist on our Nation are similar to a quiet mass invasion thru our own porous border--i.e. they both can result in loss of our Culture/Nation!

..........................TM7


TM7.  I see your point, and I ended up contradicting myself in my own post by promoting shared values of tolerance, liberty and duty as a worthy national culture.  I have absolutely no problem with any politician promoting these notions.  I just get nervous when they start proposing ideas of culture specific to religion, ethnicity, history or just about anything else that makes one person inherently more worthy than another.  That's where Hitler went, that's where segregationists went, and that's where I worry about people going today.   What other aspects of culture do you think should be promoted by the government?

My different perspective is probably due to the fact that I currently live in New York City.  You will never see another city with so many cultures in such close proximity.  Now consider the economic and cultural influence that New York exerts on the whole world.  Look at how the whole city came together on 9/11.  Once you get past peoples' no BS attitude, they're actually very nice.   I've met a lot of people who were born abroad, and many of them have the partiotism of someone who had to make sacrifices to earn their US citizenship.  On the other hand,  my girlfriend's grandfather felt like he had to change his name when he moved here because it sounded too Irish, which at the time would keep him from getting a good job.  How ridiculous and sad does that sound today?

Have faith in the American melting pot/quilt/whatever.  As long as we show ourselves to be a tolerant people who place a higher value on hard work than birth, immigrants will continue to embrace citizenship and we will benefit from their economic and cultural contributions.  

As for violent attacks, let them come.  Al Qaeda can't FORCE us to do anything- that's why they're terrorists, not a real army.  Anything we do in response to their attacks is a matter of choice.  They aint got enough planes to blow us up.  They aint got enough fanatics to occupy a square inch of our soil.  They killed 4,000 of our fellow citizens, but we're 300 million strong.  The blood of the 9/11 dead feeds the tree of liberty as long as we don't cut it down in their name.

Bo
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Offline DWARREN123

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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2004, 01:53:54 AM »
The powers that be should, in my opinion, not give out citizenship, it should be pursued. Now on the otherhand, check your last name and where did your family come from.

Offline Hooker

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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2004, 04:18:01 AM »
Quote from: DWARREN123
The powers that be should, in my opinion, not give out citizenship, it should be pursued. "

Amen citizenship should be earned not issued.

 "Now on the otherhand, check your last name and where did your family come from.


More important how did they get here?
Did they break the law by stealing their way across our borders?
When their arrived did they imbrace our ideals and laws?

I'am proud of my Irish heritage yet I don't promote or live that culture. I'am an American period. Being an American is not having a geographical address. immigrants to this country should bring their heritage and be proud of it but they need to leave the culture behind. There is enough freedom here to be what ever you want to be without changing the makeup of the America. Multiculturalisim is tearing this country apart. That damn melting pot just makes mutt stew.
We should be a Forge where raw material is pounded into the idea that is America.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline badbo

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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2004, 07:48:50 AM »
Quote from: TM7
What other aspects of our Culture should the government promote you ask? Well, I'm sure I could come up with quite a laundry list from my personal point of view. BUT, what I really want the government to do is STOP promoting the dilution and demise of our indigenous Culture. Which is the topic of this thread>>uncontrolled invasion and migration. History shows this to cause the Fall of great civilizations.

Been to NYC many times and won't hold it against you being a NYC denizen. :-)  My impression of NYC -- fast moving,exciting, boring, pretentious, dead spiritual batteries, preoccuppied with materialism, out dated, full of annoying people and getting overly crowded with the continous influx of lost souls, self inflated concept of itself and importance,etc.,etc.etc. Other than that, a nice place to visit and spend some money. Oh, nice art museums.


TM7,
I understand what you're saying about dilution of culture, but I'm challenging you to enumerate a few of the aspects of our culture that you think are uniquely American because I think great civilizations fail for different reasons.  Namely, whether it be Rome, British Empire or the USSR they get too big for their britches and don't have a big enough economy and army to defend foreign posessions.  It's easy to invade a country -- holding it's the hard part.

As for your opinion of New York, I agree with you 90%.  I'd also be happy to meet you for a beer or recommend some places to check out next time you're here, but if you've found your way out of Times Square and into the Metropolitan Museum of Art you're off to a great start.  I don't want to live here forever, but I've learned more about people in my 5 years here than I learned in the prior 25.
Love your enemies, for they tell you your faults
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