Author Topic: cheap ammunition, concentricity, barrels, and chambers.  (Read 3352 times)

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Offline dave imas

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cheap ammunition, concentricity, barrels, and chambers.
« on: November 13, 2004, 06:32:38 PM »
an unscientific rant...

so...  let me tell you what i found, then the conclusions i have come to...  you can then tell me you think i'm nuts.

like everyone else i'm constantly struggling with the whole ammunition question.  I used to go thru 3 cases a year with practice and matches.  That was back when RWS Rifle Match actually was pretty good ammunition and was just over $300/case.  I've shot Eley Tenex back when it was worth whatever you paid for it.  Lapua at $900/case...  blah blah blah.  just like the rest of us.  Well...  It pains me greatly to pay that much for a case of ammunition...  I think the only thing that probably pains me more is breaking in the middle of a ram, following thru and having nothing fall down.  THAT really kills me.  Such is the price of inexpensive ammunition...  Great variety in velocity from shot to shot, concentricity from round to round, inconsistent primer distribution...  lots of challenges with the cheap stuff.  So I recently ran out of the last case I had of Federal 900 and was in the search for a replacement ammunition that wasn't going to keep me from making the mortgage payment.  A student and friend that I have a lot of respect for suggested trying the Aquila blue box.  Well...  i'll tell you...  i really hesitated.  I had already tried their yellow box and found that it was marginal at pigs and horrible past them.  So bad that I won't use it unless i'm shooting indoors.  But...  the Blue Box...  I had read some folks here suggesting they liked it and at $200/case it was worth a try.

So...  I have a Sako Finnfire with a Lilja barrel for hunter and an Anschutz 1808 MSR for standard.  Off I go to the range for a match with extremely interesting results.  The next four matches I shot over a two month period were 60 round matches.  With the Sako/Lilja and Aquila blue box turkey scores were 13/15, 14/15, 14/15, 13/15.  My ram scores were 15/15, 14/15, 15/15, 14/15.  With the Anschutz and the Aguila I never got over 11 animals for turkeys or rams in any of the 4 matches.  Relay 1 and 2 kind of situation.  Same conditions for each animal.  Keep in mind that I sight in off hand so I have no idea how the two rifles were grouping at 100 yards.  Actually, my bench skills are so bad that if I had put them on a rest I would still have no real idea of how they were grouping...

So... after reading an article that Dan Theodore sent me regarding the effects of concentricity on accuracy, going over my stumblings and bumblings for the last 20 or so years I've shot this game, and spending quite a bit of time speaking with my benchrest contacts up here in washington who basically confirmed the information that Dan had provided, (lucky me my next door neighbor won three state championships in .22 benchrest last year) i've come to a number of conclusions....

A tight match chamber will correct for the inconsistency of concentricity of inexpensive ammunition.  This allows us to shoot less expensive ammunition of lower quality and still get good results. The Anschutz has a match chamber but not the chamber that the Lilja barrel has.  I believe that is the difference in performance between the two rifles.  I always thought the Anschutz barrels were good enough...  well, they probably are.  It is their chambers that aren't quite up to match benchrest standards.  They will shoot high quality ammunition just fine.  they won't, however, help us overcome the sloppiness of the less expensive ammunition.

This has economic implications as well...  If spending the money for a custom barrel with an appropriate chamber along with a quality installation allows you to shoot less expensive ammunition and still hit what you are shooting at, the return on investment, depending on how many cases you shoot a year, can be extremely fast.  If I can save $300/case by shooting the Aguila blue box, my barrel and installation are paid for in less than a year.

One of our laws that is worth repeating...   As long as a barrel comes from reputable manufacturer, the guy that puts the barrel on is far more important than the barrel itself.  There is the ocassional bad barrel but the experience and diligence of your gunsmith/machinist is of paramount importance.

For myself I'm building a new rifle...  It is going to have a Shilen Select Match barrel with a Lilja chamber hung on the Anschutz action stuck in a Mcmillan stock.  I'm also praying that i'm not full of hooey and it will shoot the Aguila blue box!

If you want a more specific or scientific discussion about reamers and saami specs I would drag Dan into this.   I just wanted to make an effort to help new shooters understand that, in this case, one of the the best ways to save money if you are serious about this game is to spend more of it in the beginning.

this is what happens when i'm stuck in a hotel room in orlando.
dave imas

Offline SilhouetteShooter

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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2004, 08:26:07 PM »
Dave, when you have time would you be so kind to tell us what is the actual name of the Aguila blue box ammo you are using.  They have Golden Eagle Target, Standard Velocity, Match rifle and Match pistol but they do not show the actual colors of the boxes, they vary in price from $205 to $220 with the exception of the Standard Velocity which is $145.  Thank you

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2004, 02:59:58 AM »
I won't be getting home until next Sunday but I'd be happy to.  I didn't realize there were so many different choices!
dave

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Re: cheap ammunition, concentricity, barrels, and chambers.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2004, 06:37:24 AM »
Hi Dave

Was your point to the new shooter that they should spend a lot of money up front?
Quote from: dave imas
an unscientific rant...

so...  let me tell you what i found, then the conclusions i have come to...  you can then tell me you think i'm nuts.

like everyone else i'm constantly struggling with the whole ammunition question.  I used to go thru 3 cases a year with practice and matches.  That was back when RWS Rifle Match actually was pretty good ammunition and was just over $300/case.  I've shot Eley Tenex back when it was worth whatever you paid for it.  Lapua at $900/case...  blah blah blah.  just like the rest of us.  Well...  It pains me greatly to pay that much for a case of ammunition...  I think the only thing that probably pains me more is breaking in the middle of a ram, following thru and having nothing fall down.  THAT really kills me.  Such is the price of inexpensive ammunition...  Great variety in velocity from shot to shot, concentricity from round to round, inconsistent primer distribution...  lots of challenges with the cheap stuff.  So I recently ran out of the last case I had of Federal 900 and was in the search for a replacement ammunition that wasn't going to keep me from making the mortgage payment.  A student and friend that I have a lot of respect for suggested trying the Aquila blue box.  Well...  i'll tell you...  i really hesitated.  I had already tried their yellow box and found that it was marginal at pigs and horrible past them.  So bad that I won't use it unless i'm shooting indoors.  But...  the Blue Box...  I had read some folks here suggesting they liked it and at $200/case it was worth a try.

So...  I have a Sako Finnfire with a Lilja barrel for hunter and an Anschutz 1808 MSR for standard.  Off I go to the range for a match with extremely interesting results.  The next four matches I shot over a two month period were 60 round matches.  With the Sako/Lilja and Aquila blue box turkey scores were 13/15, 14/15, 14/15, 13/15.  My ram scores were 15/15, 14/15, 15/15, 14/15.  With the Anschutz and the Aguila I never got over 11 animals for turkeys or rams in any of the 4 matches.  Relay 1 and 2 kind of situation.  Same conditions for each animal.  Keep in mind that I sight in off hand so I have no idea how the two rifles were grouping at 100 yards.  Actually, my bench skills are so bad that if I had put them on a rest I would still have no real idea of how they were grouping...

So... after reading an article that Dan Theodore sent me regarding the effects of concentricity on accuracy, going over my stumblings and bumblings for the last 20 or so years I've shot this game, and spending quite a bit of time speaking with my benchrest contacts up here in washington who basically confirmed the information that Dan had provided, (lucky me my next door neighbor won three state championships in .22 benchrest last year) i've come to a number of conclusions....

A tight match chamber will correct for the inconsistency of concentricity of inexpensive ammunition.  This allows us to shoot less expensive ammunition of lower quality and still get good results. The Anschutz has a match chamber but not the chamber that the Lilja barrel has.  I believe that is the difference in performance between the two rifles.  I always thought the Anschutz barrels were good enough...  well, they probably are.  It is their chambers that aren't quite up to match benchrest standards.  They will shoot high quality ammunition just fine.  they won't, however, help us overcome the sloppiness of the less expensive ammunition.

This has economic implications as well...  If spending the money for a custom barrel with an appropriate chamber along with a quality installation allows you to shoot less expensive ammunition and still hit what you are shooting at, the return on investment, depending on how many cases you shoot a year, can be extremely fast.  If I can save $300/case by shooting the Aguila blue box, my barrel and installation are paid for in less than a year.

One of our laws that is worth repeating...   As long as a barrel comes from reputable manufacturer, the guy that puts the barrel on is far more important than the barrel itself.  There is the ocassional bad barrel but the experience and diligence of your gunsmith/machinist is of paramount importance.

For myself I'm building a new rifle...  It is going to have a Shilen Select Match barrel with a Lilja chamber hung on the Anschutz action stuck in a Mcmillan stock.  I'm also praying that i'm not full of hooey and it will shoot the Aguila blue box!

If you want a more specific or scientific discussion about reamers and saami specs I would drag Dan into this.   I just wanted to make an effort to help new shooters understand that, in this case, one of the the best ways to save money if you are serious about this game is to spend more of it in the beginning.

this is what happens when i'm stuck in a hotel room in orlando.
dave imas

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2004, 08:15:33 AM »
man i must be bad!!!  all of that rambling and i still didn't get m ypoint across!  :)

This has economic implications as well... If spending the money for a custom barrel with an appropriate chamber along with a quality installation allows you to shoot less expensive ammunition and still hit what you are shooting at, the return on investment, depending on how many cases you shoot a year, can be extremely fast. If I can save $300/case by shooting the Aguila blue box, my barrel and installation are paid for in less than a year.

i know they aren't inexpensive but i think an appropriately chambered custom barrel pays for itself very quickly and provides savings throughout it's life by allowing a competitor to shoot less expensive ammunition with positive results.

is that better?

dave

Offline lucho

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I get you Dave but...
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2004, 09:25:45 AM »
Dave

I understand what you are saying.  However, I'm not sure I agree.  Here are my thoughts.

I think the only way to measure a rifles/ammo accuracy is from the bench.  Offhand shooting justs add to much to the mix.  So it's best to eliminate them.  These are some of the things can influence accuracy:

1) consistancey of ammo (velocity consistancy, concentricity, bullet shape...)
2) barrel quality (smoothness, crown, quality of chamber....)
3) rifle quality (how the barrel is put together, bedding....)

also things like

4) trigger (light, heavy, creepy)
5) shooter (good or bad...)
6) rest (bags or quality rest...)

If one has a good rifle, I believe velocity consistance of the ammo has the greatest influence on accuracy.  Mostly because it is the one variable we can't control.  We have to buy it.

Also, I think it is the variable with the biggest lever on accuracy.  By this I mean if we had some ammo that had a standard deviation in velocity 0f 50ft/s and was not concentric by a few thou.  It would group 2 inches at 100m.  If you straightened out the concentricity with a good tight chamber it might group 1 3/4 inches at 100m.  These numbers are made up but they convey the way I veiw how different variable effect accuracy.

If one is a bench shooter.  Highly concentric ammo is important.  But it is still a distant second to velocity consistancy.  Hence bench shooters also buy expensive ammo.

I'm just not sure the tight match chamber makes as big a difference as you might think.

Of the variables I listed, this is how I would rank them in importants.  Variables rancked the same have the same importance.

1) barrel smothness, crown, ammo velocity consistance
2) bedding, trigger, rest
3) shooter,
4) concentricity, bullet shape, chamber

For me, I shoot expensive ammo at big matchs and cheap ammo at local matches.  I live with the fact that I can't afford the good stuff all the time and that I will loose a couple of animals because of it.

Of course I don't shoot at your level against the caliber of the shooter you shot against at monthly matches.  If I did I might not want to loose those animals.

Have you buddy the benchrest shooter shoot both rifles with cheap ammo and expensive ammo.  My guess is that the cheap ammo will group poorly in both guns and that the expensive ammo will group well in both gun.

I would also venture that both guns have close to the same group size for the same kind of ammo.

Keep us informed
Lucho

Offline K2

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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2004, 09:53:57 AM »
Hi Dave

I think I get your drift, .22 rifle silhouette is an expensive sport, and if you don't spend a bunch on a custom barrel with a custom cut chamber you will spend even more on ammo than is necessary making it even more expensive over the long haul.   Your  point being you should spend a lot on the custom barrel to begin with, and save over time?  

Do people really spend $900 for a case of .22 ammo to play this rifle game?  
Quote from: dave imas
man i must be bad!!!  all of that rambling and i still didn't get m ypoint across!  :)

This has economic implications as well... If spending the money for a custom barrel with an appropriate chamber along with a quality installation allows you to shoot less expensive ammunition and still hit what you are shooting at, the return on investment, depending on how many cases you shoot a year, can be extremely fast. If I can save $300/case by shooting the Aguila blue box, my barrel and installation are paid for in less than a year.

i know they aren't inexpensive but i think an appropriately chambered custom barrel pays for itself very quickly and provides savings throughout it's life by allowing a competitor to shoot less expensive ammunition with positive results.

is that better?

dave

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2004, 10:33:32 AM »
Lucho my good friend...

your points are tough to argue.  as a matter of fact i agree with you.  and not just because when you sneeze you lose more brain cells than i have to start with...

so here is my problem...  i've kept records for a long time with both rifles when shooting expensive ammunition.  average score was within 2/10ths of a point over 2 years.   35.5 and 35.7 out of 40.
now that i am shooting less expensive ammunition there is a 7 point difference over eight 60 round matches.  My hunter rifle with the custom barrel outshooting my standard rifle with the factory barrel and two stage 2oz trigger.  

so yes...  i will have my benchrest buddy shoot both rifles at 100 meters to see what will happen.  If i hadn't seen the difference in the matches i would agree that the performance of the ammunition would be the same.  I completely get and agree with your point about consistency in velocity.  it is the practical experience that i am having that is telling me that the chamber/concentricity may have more of an effect than first thought.

given that, i'm willing to buy your first $20 in poker chips for you if they shoot the same or pretty similar group.  if the hunter rifle shoots a significantly better group than the standard rifle i'll be playing poker on you Friday night.

K2...  yes.  people really do spend that kind of money on ammunition.   some folks have spent more.  i don't think anyone likes it but, sometimes, that is what it takes.

dave

Offline Grasshopper52

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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2004, 10:56:13 AM »
K2

It seems that Dave has already responded to you while I was doing my research, but here it is anyways...

prices per 5000 round case from champion shooters supply web site

Wolf Match Gold- 880

SK Match 50- 880

Lapua Midas- 1125
Lapua Master- 615

RWS R-50- 1050
RWS Rifle Match- 635

Eley Tenex Ultimate EPS Red- 1050
Eley Match EPS Black- 685

on top of this add in shipping ~$25 plus ordering a few boxes
first to test different lots and the shipping on that order ~$10

And I personally usually order 2 boxes each from 3 different
lots to test so that will add on another ~$40-70

so with all of that you need to add on another ~$75-100 on
top of the listed case price which puts you in the range of
~$690-1225 for a case of ammo

and it would seem that at the top level the consistency provided by the more expensive ammo can make a difference when the top shooters are within a couple of points over many matches.

Jim

Offline billdncn

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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2004, 11:31:09 AM »
I understood what Dave was saying the first time I read it (and enjoyed it very much). I also see Lucho's point of view. Ofcourse your going to measure a rifles accuracy of a bench, and there are a lot of things to take into consideration. Your rest, and weather conditions being very important.

If you have a barrel of known quality with a match chamber you are going to eliminating some very important variables and chances are, your going to find something inexpensive it will like well enough for practice and informal matches.

#1 ranked variable should be the "nut behind the butt"
#2 - rest, and weather conditions

If these 2 things are good to go, then you can start to eliminate the other things........

Sorry for chiming in   :D

Bill

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2004, 11:44:14 AM »
don't apologize Bill!!  that is the whole point.  hoping to get folks to share what they think.  thank you!

Offline SilhouetteShooter

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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2004, 01:28:28 PM »
Dave, I agree with you 100%.  I've had several Anschuz 54 Silhouette rifles on the many years that I've been shooting silhouettes with .22s and some of them would not shoot well unless I used most expensive ammo available (at the time around half of what we pay now) even then the top ammo was too expensive for me to shoot every week so I invested in custom SS barrels and found out like you did that my rifles would then shoot the less expensive ammo much better than before.

Another point of your tread, is that at least for me is not really that important how someone determines the accuracy their equipment.  You and a few other fortunate shooters hold well enough to be able to sight in shooting standing only and your scores tell the whole story, it may not sound very scientific but works for you guys and that is what matters.  

Other shooters like to spend lots of time and ammo making sure their equipment shoots very little groups and that gives them confidence and there is nothing wrong with that either.  

I myself try to shoot from the bench to get my zeros for a particular range and then do it off hand to compare my bench zero from my off-hand zero.  I shoot my less expensive ammo for the not too important monthly matches and save the good stuff for the important matches but once I am at those matches I do not change back and forth between inexpensive ammo for practice and the expensive ammo to shoot the actual matches.  

Thank you for taking the time to help us.

Offline K2

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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2004, 03:11:01 PM »
Thanks Grasshopper

That is some serious shootin ;~)
Quote from: Grasshopper52
K2

It seems that Dave has already responded to you while I was doing my research, but here it is anyways...

prices per 5000 round case from champion shooters supply web site

Wolf Match Gold- 880

SK Match 50- 880

Lapua Midas- 1125
Lapua Master- 615

RWS R-50- 1050
RWS Rifle Match- 635

Eley Tenex Ultimate EPS Red- 1050
Eley Match EPS Black- 685

on top of this add in shipping ~$25 plus ordering a few boxes
first to test different lots and the shipping on that order ~$10

And I personally usually order 2 boxes each from 3 different
lots to test so that will add on another ~$40-70

so with all of that you need to add on another ~$75-100 on
top of the listed case price which puts you in the range of
~$690-1225 for a case of ammo

and it would seem that at the top level the consistency provided by the more expensive ammo can make a difference when the top shooters are within a couple of points over many matches.

Jim

Offline lucho

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Dave
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2004, 06:35:45 PM »
So let me see if i understand what you said.

With expensive ammunition, you average 35.5 with your hunter and 35.7 with your standard.  Right?

But with inexpensive ammunition, you average 35.5 with your hunter and 27.7 with your standard?

(Stop shooting your standard gun! HaHaHa)

All kidding aside, this is a mystery
May things could be at play.  Maybe you concentrate more with the hunter gun since it is tougher?  Maybe a seed of doubt about the standard gun is messing up your standard gun shooting?  Maybe the heavy gun is harder for you to follow thru with.

Besides, I thought you just got you standard gun a few months ago?

I will admit that my opinion about concentricity is just that, opinion.  The way to tell is by experimenting.  So shoot those groups.

I have tested several brands of ammo over a chronograph and measured the extreme spread for 50 shots (As per Dan).  And interestingly enough you seem to get what you pay for.  Here is a simplistic break down.

For a case $200 - $300 extreme spread of 70 ft/sec.  
                $300 - $500 extreme spread of 50 ft/sec.  
                $600 and up  extreme spread of 30 ft/sec or less.

These are just rough numbers.  

Wolf Target
extreme spread   50ft/sec  (groups about 2 - 1.5 inches)

Eley lot MH3319
extreme spread   35ft/sec

Eley lot MH2265  
extreme spread   24ft/sec (groups about 1 - 0.75 inches)

Lapua L
extreme spread   88ft/sec (or 61 if you throw out the odd low one)

Lapua M
extreme spread   48ft/sec

So I shot Wolf for monthlies and ELEY EPS Match for the big matches.

I keep telling myself this game is all about breaking center and following through.  If I do this the targets will fall.

Lucho

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2004, 06:56:01 PM »
see now...  you still have me agreeing with you.  what you found is exactly what i would expect from different ammunitions shot from the same rifle.  i'm thinking that you might have found similar deltas in group size using a different rifle but, perhaps different size groups as well.  the custom barrel and chamber will probably shoot really good ammunition better than not so good ammunition just like the standard barrel/chamber.  i'm just saying that the custom barrel/chamber will shoot poopy ammunition better than the standard barrel/chamber.

does that make any sense?  

and yes.  i'm taking my standard rifle apart to make my new hunter.  back to one gun and i can't wait!
dave

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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2004, 03:22:14 AM »
David,

Don't tell me that -- like me -- you've given up on trying to live with the Finnfire trigger?

BTW -- You guys are scaring me. You keep using words like: 'Dan' and 'Theodore'. Please be more careful. If he's lurking around here, he might jump in and we'll have to decipher things like: "The random coloidal angular structure of the leade often causes a quantum inversion of bullet stability during wormhole passage and so a leade angle of .0000047 degrees is mandatory for maximum...etc. etc. etc. etc."  :-D
E Kuney

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2004, 04:54:48 AM »
Yes Ernie....  I have to admit I've finally given up on the Finnfire trigger.  I love everything else about the rifle but found the trigger to be such a mitigating factor that it is time to move on.  I've attempted communication with Berretta on a couple of ocassions but they have been less than forthcoming so...  I surrender.

I had quite a delightful dinner with Dan a week ago Monday.  Only a few people moved away from our table this time!  :)

Offline nomad

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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2004, 06:07:22 AM »
Beretta's not very forthcoming about much of anything. I've talked several times with one of their people who used to live down here and shoot competitively (a pretty decent guy) but even he's not able to say much.

If they don't get their thumbs out over the blown-up stainless 75s and Tikkas that they're not saying much about, they're going to really be in a bind.

Sako was always a great rifle maker. Maybe shotgun people should stay out of the rifle business? :wink:
E Kuney

Offline DanDeMan

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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2004, 07:32:22 AM »
Yo Lucho,

Yes, the bench and top level bench-shooting are necessary to be able to differentiate ammo quality as a function of accuracy on paper but I don’t agree with your listed issues that follow:

1. Consistency of ammo (velocity consistency, concentricity, bullet shape...)
2. Barrel quality (smoothness, crown, quality of chamber....)
3. Rifle quality (how the barrel is put together, bedding....)

From years of shooting SB Silhouette and shooting groups at 100 yards and meters I’d say that MV variation is important but so is bullet alignment to the bore when we are concerned about accuracy at turkey and ram distance.  My top three ammo/rifle issues, in order of perceived importance, that predict accuracy are:

1. Bullet-to-bore concentricity – without that no amount of money thrown at ammo will help accuracy

2. Bullet-to-bore concentricity – without that no amount of money thrown at ammo will help accuracy

3. Bullet-to-bore concentricity – without that no amount of money thrown at ammo will help accuracy

A little tongue-in-check like the answer to the old real estate question, “What determines the price of a piece of property?”, location, location and location.

From years of shooting, designing reamers, rifles, pistols and bullets I would suggest that bullet alignment to the bore when the gas pressure obdurates the back of the bullet is tantamount to the attainment of high levels of accuracy with 22LR ammo.  That means that concentricity of bullet to bore is more important than any other factor as long as MV variation is below 50 fps. As with all parameters used in the optimization process, if we drive one factor way out of range we get a first order effect when in fact within the range it is a second order effect.  That statement assumes that we are not hindered by the trigger, shooter, rest, etc.; variables we can control.  For match ammo I look for 30 fps or less for a 50 shot string over an Ohler chronograph with ½ MOA accuracy under ideal conditions like we often get on Tuesday nights after about 7 PM at SRGC.

A simple test to see if there is potential for accuracy is to carefully chamber a round and extract it while trying not to scratch the bullet.  Next, use a magnifying glass to check for consistent engraving on the cylindrical portion of the bullet behind the nose ogive.  There should be engraving along its complete length that looks the same all the way around the bullet.

As an example from years past, my first SB Hunter Rifle was a Kimber.  Those rifles were known to be accurate, but were also known to be finicky about ammo.  The Kimber had a very sloppy chamber in that the bullets did not engrave at all.  That is why it was so finicky about which ammo would shoot well in it.  Fast forward to a few years ago when I was shooting a Lilja barreled Finnfire with the tight Lilja chamber.  That barrel would shoot anything well.  All of the ammo tested in it had symmetric engraving on the shank portion of the bullet between the case mouth and nose ogive.

I have had, in the past, ammo that had good MV consistency, in the 30 fps range, but would not shoot well, over 1 MOA, in my Anschutz 1700 FW.  That ammo had bullets that were not tight in the case.  The bullets could be spun and wobbled a bit in the case.  Yet one more example of ammo that would shoot well in a “tight” chamber, the Lilja, and not shoot well in the Anschutz factory chamber.

Certainly quality gunsmithing is a must if one is to even get to the point of deciding which ammo will shoot the best in their rifles.  Barrels are also important.  They must have consistent bore/grooved dimensions all the way down the tube.  It there are tight or loose spots in the barrel kiss accuracy good by.
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline nomad

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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2004, 08:29:43 AM »
I KNEW IT!

OBTURATION! FIRST ORDER EFFECT! OPTIMIZATION!

I'M GETTING A HEADACHE AND I'VE ONLY READ THE DARN THING -- I HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE'S SAYING!
E Kuney

Offline Fivepigs

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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2004, 10:15:18 AM »
Mice nuts.  Mice nuts, I say!  All this talk about concentricity and velocity.  What does it get you?  A bullet that only goes where you're aiming when you happen to yank the trigger.  I ask you, how often does it happen that you're actually aiming at the target when you yank the trigger?  And that's not even considering follow through.  Accurate ammo only works if you have a steady hold, great trigger control, and perfect follow through.  

The solution, my friends, is LESS accurate ammo -- not more.  With less accurate ammo you can be aiming at a point well outside the animal and still hit it.  With less accurate ammo you don't really need to worry about follow through.  Not to mention the advantages less accurate ammo has in the wind.  Believe me, I have seen the light:  I rely on the inaccuracy of my ammunition to compensate for my lousy aim.

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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2004, 10:36:10 AM »
Sorry, Senor, but eet dosent werk det way. Caca + Caca = Mas CACA!  :oops:

Variation is cummulative, that is, impact dispersion from ammo variation in point of impact is magnified by one's wobble. They do not cancel each other out. It's like trying to get a tighter pattern from a shotgun using an open choke by feeding it spreader loads.  :cb2:
Joaquin B.:cb2:

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2004, 10:44:12 AM »
That is too bad.  the More CACA theorum of Variant Cumulation aside, I like Chris' idea of applying the Chaos theory to our problem.  If we were to multipy the caca instead of add it we might just be in business.
dave

Offline Hornetx60

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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2004, 11:52:28 AM »
Dave,
   My issue with the less expensive ammo's is the inconsistent ignition and therefore wider variations in velocitiy. With MV changing from shot to shot you can't make good calls of your shots and it leads to the shooter doubting their sight settings. I use EPS black box because I have found it to be very consistent and accurate in both of my guns. Plus it works better than any other ammo I have tried in the wind.  I want to know that when I fire a shot all of my equipment and ammo is top quality and I have removed as many variables as possible. That way the only reason for a missed animal is me not my equipment. I hate to doubt my equipment!!        I to shoot my Hunter gun way better than my heavy gun and should probably put the Standard away..., but I just can't help myself I like shooting it.   Bill R

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Dan and Chris
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2004, 12:43:59 PM »
Chris Have I got some ammo for you.  It is so bad you'll be shooting 39's in no time.

Dan:

I see you point but I would contend that:

1)  a tight chamber will shoot a 2 inch group with ammo that has an extreem spread of 50 - 70 ft/s.

2) a loose chamber will shoot a 1 inch group with ammo that has an extreem spread of 25ft/s.

I feel the velocity is a first order effect and concentrity a second order effect.

The reason I feel this way is because we can't make our own .22 ammo and insure good velocity consistance like we can with center fire guns.

If we're talking center fire guns I might rethink my opinions.

That said I will have my next rifle built with a tight chamber.  If you are going to have a rifle built it might as will be done as good as possible.

If your not having one built, just break center.  They'll go down.

Lucho

Luis

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2004, 01:00:38 PM »
still no disagreement.

you contend that:

1) a tight chamber will shoot a 2 inch group with ammo that has an extreem spread of 50 - 70 ft/s.

2) a loose chamber will shoot a 1 inch group with ammo that has an extreem spread of 25ft/s.


i agree with you and further suggest that:

1) a tight chamber will shoot an acceptable group with ammo that has an extreme spread of 30 - 60 fps

2) a loose chamber will not.

nothing will help the really bad ammunition shoot well at the further distances.  
but a tight chamber will help the medium ammunition (cheap stuff = $200/case) shoot well enough that turkeys and rams will fall down with a good break.

that is what i think i am experiencing anyways...
dave

Offline Grasshopper52

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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2004, 08:55:02 PM »
Mr. Pigs,

Have I got a deal for you!  :mrgreen:

How about we just do a straight swap of our ammo? This way you'll have an excellent way to test your theory, and I'll have a way to test Arizona Jake's!

Seems like it'll work for me! :) :) :)  

Jim

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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2004, 06:40:10 AM »
Yo Lucho,

OK, the gloves are off:-)  Let’s get down to the multi-causal relationships between variables that affect 22LR ammo accuracy (how tight chambers, loose chambers, MV variation, etc. affects accuracy).  As you know, in the real world one can’t change a single parameter and expect to optimize output (accuracy in this case).  Lucho knows this stuff inside and out as he did this kind of stuff at “The Other National Lab.”  Yes, it can be done to a limited extent, but when one parameter is changed it can improve or degrade the affects of other variables so we basically windup chasing our tails without a well designed experiment.  Variable interaction is a sticky wicket to nail down.  That is the lead-in to the only real way to settle this argument from a solid scientific basis.  We need to perform a Design of Experiments that would have an experimental matrix within which we would vary the parameters.

First we would want to remove as many experimental variables as possible that are outside the domain of the experiment like wind, hold, etc.  Our objective is to determine what the affects of chamber design and MV have on 22LR accuracy at 100 meters.  That seems to be a reasonable problem statement.  Next we need to determine how many “settings” for each of the two parameters we want in the experiment.  We have talked about “loose” and “tight” chambers, those are two “settings” to test in the experiment.  It seems a better definition of “loose” and “tight” should be described.  For the purpose of this discussion how about “tight” means the bullet is completely engraved and “loose” means there is no engraving on the bullet.  The other issue with chamber design is how “loose” or “tight” the body of the chamber is, that is, how tight is it with regard to the brass.  Come to think of it we would want to have all 4 permutations of “loose” and “tight” concerning the bullet engraving as well as “loose” and “tight” concerning how the brass part of the cartridge fits into the chamber.  The 4 permutations would be: tight-chamber & tight-leade, tight-chamber & loose-leade, loose-chamber & loose-leade, loose-chamber & tight-leade.  Next we have MV levels to define for the experiment.  It is suggested that we use levels that are typically found in the ammo we purchase and the MV’s we believe are appropriate for top-level match shooting, practice and a “trash” level.  So with that in mind it is proposed that we use 30-fps extreme spread, 50-fps extreme spread and 70-fps extreme spread ammo.

From the above parameter levels for testing we see that there is a 4 X 3 matrix of experiments to perform.  The output of each would be 30-shot groups at 100 meters.  The testing should be done with a rail-gun shot indoors so the effects of shooter hold and wind can be removed from the test results.  These two variables are capable of skewing the results so that a meaningful interpretation is not possible.  One thing to think about is we would want to use the same ammo from different lots as bullet design, neck tension and probably other ammo variables that are evident between different types of 22LR ammo could skew the test results.  Since ammo manufacturers grade lots that use the same components and are manufactured on the same production line this could be done.

Once the twelve 30-shot groups are on paper we can do the appropriate analysis to determine which of the parameter levels have the largest affect on accuracy.

Since this was just a thought exercise, I’ll give my guess at which variables will have the greatest affects.

For the 30-fps ammo a tight-leade & tight-chamber will have the greatest effect on accuracy followed by tight-leade & loose-chamber followed by loose-leade & tight-chamber with loose-leade & loose-chamber taking up the rear.

The same would be the case for 50-fps and 70-fps ammo.

Now, here is where this thought process gets tricky.  Would the tight-leade & tight-chamber test with the 70-fps ammo shoot better than the 30-fps ammo shot from the loose-leade & loose-chamber?  That is the crux of the issue Lucho and I are discussing.  How about the 50-fps tight-tight test compared to the 30-fps loose-loose test?  I think you see where I’m going.  Chew on it for awhile.
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline DanDeMan

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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2004, 06:59:59 AM »
Yo Lucho,

Here is some more to chew on.  From a theoretical standpoint we can calculate the vertical dispersion at 100 meters that is a function of velocity extreme spread.  Using a BC of 0.145 for 40-grain, 22LR bullets we get the following for a nominal MV of 1,100 fps:

70 fps Extreme Spread = Max vertical at 100 meters of 1.5"

50 fps Extreme Spread = Max vertical at 100 meters of 1.1"

30 fps Extreme Spread = Max vertical at 100 meters of 0.7"

This is only a theoretical result that does not take into account things like barrel harmonics.
All the best,

Dan Theodore

Offline dave imas

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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2004, 07:21:06 AM »
for those of us simpletons out there...  i'm hoping the tight leade - tight chamber shoots the 50fps well enough that i can avoid having to buy the 30fps ammunition except for national level matches.
dave

i do love the discussion tho!