Author Topic: Anyone cast bullets for a Model 52? (Read 1805 times)

rbwillnj · « **on:** November 15, 2004, 12:58:35 PM »

Does anyone have experience casting bullets for a Smith & Wesson Model 52 38 Special Midrange Wadcutter. I have use Star 148 grain HBWC with great success, but they are going out of business, and I'd like to cast a replacement (not hollow base of course). I have several Lyman and H&G wadcutter molds, but I haven't been able to work up a load that shoots worth a darn.

Thanks

haroldclark · « **Reply #1 on:** November 15, 2004, 02:48:07 PM »

I have done a lot of work with the model 52 and cast bullets. The most accurate bullet that I have cast is the Saeco #348 mold. It is a double ended watcutter that is bevel based on both ends that weighs 150 grains. Out of 80 recorded targets that I have tested, two targets of .75" with the Speer HBWC ad then the Saeco bullet moves in with 1" groups at 25 yards and move up to 1.25" groups. I can't hold it much better than this. About 10th place the HBWC comes in for two groups for a couple and then back to the Saeco bullet.

Since I rather cast my own for several reasons, I use the #348 mold exclusively.

3.1 grains of Winchester 231 with the bullet seated flush with the case and a slight taper crimp will shoot the best in my Model 52. I have used a very slight roll crimp from time to time and I can't tell the difference in accuracy.`

The Model 52 S&W is the darling of semi-automatics in my opinion.

Harold Clark

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #2 on:** November 15, 2004, 02:49:28 PM »

RB. I don't shoot a Model 52, but I have shot more than my fair share of .38 WCs in revolvers and carbines, and I have a guess at your problem. You need to try sizing your WCs in larger sizes. HBWC will adjust to some degree to the bore, but regular WCs have to start out over groove diameter. I'm guessing that you are sizing to .357. Try .358 and .359.

I have never been able to get homecast WCs to shoot quite as well as swaged HBWCs, but I can come close.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #3 on:** November 15, 2004, 04:12:25 PM »

Good information, thanks, keep it coming,

With the Star HBWC, I get a 1-1.25" group at 25 yards with 3.0 grains of W231. I tried bullets cast from a Lyman 35863 sized to .358 in a Star, with Stars Hard lube, and got at least a 5" group (several different powder loads, 3.2gr was best). I didn't think it was possible to shoot that badly. (Did I mention this was from a Ransom Rest. I also shot some H&G bullets that are pretty much the same doulbe end wadcutter, but these were sized to .355 (the mold casts a small bullet) but got pretty bad results with this too.

haroldclark · « **Reply #4 on:** November 15, 2004, 04:44:19 PM »

I always size my wadcutters to .358". Sizing at .355 is really undersized and I'm sure they didn't shoot very well.

Leftover is correct in his assertion about the HBWC filling the barrel.

Harold Clark

Nobade · « **Reply #5 on:** November 15, 2004, 04:51:30 PM »

I messed around with casting for my 52-2 for a while, but never got anything to shoot as good as Remington or Zero swaged HBWC's. Since you can buy Remington for something like $40 for 2000 it's really hard to justify casting them, especially if they don't shoot as well.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2004, 01:59:30 AM »

I tried to slug the barrel of my model 52, but the lans and grooves are opposite one another, so it's virtually impossible to get a good measurement. I read somewhere..(I think it was on the BullseyePistol forum) that the Giles 38 Midrange conversion had a .355 barrel, so I gave it a try. Your right, it didn't shoot well. I have a .357 Star die, so I will give that a try. I have also read on some postings that NOT filling all the lube grooves can improve accuracy.

$40 for 2000 HBWC? Wow, I have never seen anything that low. That's a little more than half what I was paying for Stars.

dave375hh · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2004, 03:17:35 AM »

The S&W Model 52's usually have .356 bores. I've had excellent results with the Lee Dbl ended tumblelube wadcutters, sized .357 over 3.0 grs. IMR 700X. I tumblelube them with a light coat then size them with a lee pushthru sizing kit then lube them a second time(lightly). I get 1.1" and no leading with this combination.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2004, 07:47:42 AM »

We've covered size, and there are only two other things left that can make a difference of that magnitude, lube and alloy. If you are using WW, WW+2% tin, or 50/50 WW/lead, we can pretty well rule out the alloy. Pure lead or linotype could give problems, but I doubt you are using either of those.

I have no experience with the Star lube or the Star sizer, but I am deeply suspicious of all hard lubes. Had more than my fair share of troubles with them. If you can get some bullets sized without lubing them, try a light coat of liquid Alox or even Johnson's paste wax.

I get 50 yard groups in the 1" - 1.5" range with Lee DEWC TLs from a Handi. There just ain't no sense in cast WCs shooting that badly for you. I can see groups opening from 1.25" to 1.75" or even 2.00", but opening to 5" says that there is something major wrong.

Lead pot · « **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2004, 10:21:21 AM »

The 52 smith is I think one of the finest center fire match pistols I have ever used in my years of bull's eye comp.
the 52 is very sensitive with bullet diameter. Mine needed a .356 diameter with #2 Lyman alloy. I would hate to take a guess how many rounds I put through it since 1965, enough I guess to ware the bluing off the slide i guess. My 52 did not like the wheelweight mixes.

#2 Lyman Alloy
9lbs wheelweights-!lb. 50/50 solder.

4lbs. linotype 1lb. 50/50 solder.
5lbs lead.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #10 on:** November 16, 2004, 11:09:24 AM »

I do use an allow that has to be pretty close to #2 alloy. I use reclaimed range lead and add about 20% linotype. You can make a small mark in the bullets with your finger nail, definitely softer than linotype. It works great for my 45 ACP loads....as does the hard lube. But apparently, I've got a whole different situation here.

The Star HBWC I have been using measures just under .358, but of course they are very soft. I can always buy a replacement, but I have all of the casting equipment, a good source of lead, and I kinda like doing it. So I'll keep trying to find a good combination for a while...... of course if I can't come up with an accurate load then the heck with casting.

I too love the Model 52. I have a number of handguns, but the 52 has got to be my favorite to shoot......so I really need to find a replacement for the Stars. I'll cast um if I can, and buy them if I have to.

sgtt · « **Reply #11 on:** November 16, 2004, 08:10:45 PM »

Lube can make a difference. Try lubing only one or two of the grooves. I have found that the old NRA formula to be the most accurate over all. GAR reloading has it for about $1.25 a stick.

rbwillnj · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2004, 03:58:34 PM »

Well, it looks like I have a few things to try. First I will try sizing at .357, and I will try filling only one and two lube grooves on both the .358 and .357 bullets. If that doesn't work, I'll try the Lee tumble wadcutters with liquid Alox, and if that doesn't work I'll try the softer lubes.

This is pretty much in inverse order of difficulty and cost. I have everything I need to try the first couple of things, I'll have to purchase something for the next, and cleaning the hard lube out of my Star and replacing it with soft lube will be a real #$%&*. It may be easier to find a second Star and save it for soft lubes.

Thanks everyone. If you think of anything else let me know. I'll report back if I find something that does the job.

Lead pot · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2004, 05:45:27 PM »

rbwillnj----it's not hard to clean out that Star. Just take the plug out of the base and warm the tube and base with a hot air gun. The lube will just about run out of the drain plug, and what wont cut a spung, and wipe out the rest. Or you can take off the wooden handle and boil it in a pot of water and give it a lite coating of oil.

kurt

rbwillnj · « **Reply #14 on:** December 05, 2004, 02:09:26 PM »

It's been pretty cold here in New Jersey, so I haven't been able to get out and do any more Ransom Rest testing. But, I did size up some of my wadcutters (H&G 244 BB and Lyman 35863) to .357 rather than .358. I shot them off a sandbag in the indoor range and got nothing worse than a 1" group. I still want to shot them from the Ransom Rest at 25 yards, but sizing them a little smaller seems to have made a huge difference. Thanks to dave375hh for suggesting .357. I still want to do more work, but at least I can see a light at the end of the tunnel

Lvl1trauma · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2004, 03:44:31 PM »

What was your lube and alloy?

Lvl1trauma

rbwillnj · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2004, 05:01:12 PM »

I would say that my alloy is pretty close to a #2. I mix one ingot of linotype to four ingots of range lead. It's pretty hard, but you can still mark it with your finger nail. I have been using Magma's hard wax lube. In this case I filled two of the three lube grooves on the 35863 bullet. The H&G bullet only has two lube grooves, plus two crimp grooves.

I want to go back and try the .357 size with all three lube grooves filled. Accuracy was greatly improved, but I did get some leading in the limited testing that I did. I may also try sizing to .3565. Others on the forum have recommended that I go with a softer lube, but this lube works really well for 45 ACP bullets, and it would be a real pain to switch back and forth. I'm looking for another Star Lubrisizer so I can keep one for soft lubes, and one for lubes that require heating.

sgtt · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2004, 07:22:24 PM »

Try the softer lube in the 45. I think you will be pleased.

savage99 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 25, 2004, 02:11:19 AM »

A friend of mine who shoots at Camp Perry each year uses a '52 loaded with Lyman's 358495 148 grain WC loaded with 2.7 of Bullseye. I believe he has lightened the spring...but this thing shoots one hole groups at 25 yards. He hand weighs each bullet to, I think, a half a grain. The factory bought match wadcutters do not shoot any better for him.

Best wishes

rbwillnj · « **Reply #19 on:** December 26, 2004, 05:55:41 PM »

I have a 358495 that I picked up on eBay recently, but haven't cast with it yet. That bullet has a button nose. Does your friend seat the bullet so that the end of the nose is flush with the case? With a model 52, the end of the bullet has to be flush with the end of the case, or it will bind in the magazine. I have known some people who have loaded button nose bullets backwards.

haroldclark · « **Reply #20 on:** December 29, 2004, 02:31:11 PM »

I forgot to mention a while back that nearly always, I experience the first round chambered from the magaznie will be a wild shot from the main group. I have read that this is common with the 52.

When shooting for groups, I shoot the first shot in the dirt, reload the magazine with another cartridge and then go. I stop shooting before the chamber is empty and reload it.

The point is to keep a loaded round in the chamber that came from the magazine. The groups will improve.

Harold

BTW: The Model 52 is one of my wife's favorite shooters. At 15 yards and off hand standing, she can keep 10 shots in the 10 ring. And I walk the line around here.