Author Topic: Rechambering/Gunsmith Reccomendations (Read 3589 times)

wtxbadger · « **on:** November 16, 2004, 07:40:36 AM »

I have a Handi rifle in 30-30 that I have been thinking about having rechambered to 7.62x54R. Has anyone here had a rifle rechambered and if you have who would you recommend for this kind of work?

Thanks

wtxbadger

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2004, 08:55:45 AM »

i wouldnt go with 762 54 you are shuving a 310 dia bullet down a 308 barrel thats a big case an lots of pressure....maybe if you handload with 308 bullets but then you loss that cheap ammo. i wouldrecomend a 3040 krag..rimmed case almost 06 bullet speed about as easy to find reloadable brass for. a whole lot easier to find a chamber tool ..

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2004, 10:19:42 AM »

I would go with the 30-30 AI. This is a fine conversion and close to a 308.if loaded to 50kpsi. Easy to hand load and still able to use factory 30-30 in a pinch.

Longcruise · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2004, 11:15:56 AM »

I'd go with the 7.62X54R. IMO it will easily out run the other options and is a very easy caliber to reload for. You might need a sizer that will allow the neck to accomadate the .308 bullets and of course it needs to be reamed for that size chamber.

The other possible problem is that some of the NEF 30-30 frames are not built to accomadate the higher pressures. I know mine is not and NEF will only do the low pressure barrels for it.

This year my hunting load in my 91/30 was a 225 grain bullet at 2350 fps (bullet compliments of Boer bullets by billoregon on this board) Did not get a chance to use it but I'm sure any elk that was properly hit with it was going down :shock:

I don't think the 30-30AI or 30-40 are going to give you those kind of ballistics. OTOH, I've never used either so if I'm wrong someone will correct me :-)

wtxbadger · « **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2004, 02:07:26 PM »

I had considered reloading if I had it rechambered, but I also heard somewhere that either Barnaul or possibly Wolf already loaded their factory ammo with .308 diameter bullets. I am trying to find out for sure on that.

The 30-40 Krag and 30-30AI are ones I will mull over. I have really enjoyed shooting my mosin nagants and have been really impressed with the russian round, and thought a Handi chambered for it would be a unique, fast handling, and great shooting gun with a little more oomph than the 30-30. I am not down on the 30-30 by any stretch so I hope I have not stepped on any toes, I just thought both cartridges being rimmed this might be a good conversion to check out.

I bought my 30-30 Handi new in January so I think it should handle the pressure without any problems. May need to do a little more research on that, but seeing as H&R offers the Handi in 30-06 it would seem reasonable to think the 7.62x54 would be okay.

Caught the Handi rifle bug in January and can't seem to quit. My wife shoots a Handi .223 and my youngest son shoots a Handi youth .243. Came across a 45-70 Handi for sale in the local paper last weekend but have not called about it yet. I will not call about it. I will not call about. I will not call. Hmmmm. Where is that darn phone number.

wtxbadger

Major · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2004, 02:32:55 PM »

I would give the .30-30 Ackley Improved a real close look for your barrel. It will get you a couple of hundred more feet per second over the stock factory loading and as Fred M said, it will still fire the factory .30-30 in a pinch. The .30-30 shells are easy to come by as every where that sells ammo has them and they can be very inexpensive. They also fireform easily, just shoot the factory round and out comes a .30-30 AI case.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2004, 02:37:22 PM »

Anybody know the ball park cost of rechambering a .30-30 handi barrel to AI?

Major · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2004, 02:52:00 PM »

I canÂ’t give you a cost but from what I hear it is as easy to do by hand as the .357 Max was that everyone was doing to their HandiÂ’s. Just buy the reamer and then sell it when you are through and it should be a very cheap job indeed.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2004, 03:00:54 PM »

I checked the cost of a reamer, $90 at Midway. Anyone interested in a group buy? :wink:

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/856934

Major · « **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2004, 03:45:37 PM »

I would join you but so far I havenÂ’t even been able to get a .30-30 Handi. I hope they get some more of them made soon.

handirifle · « **Reply #10 on:** November 16, 2004, 06:05:43 PM »

Don't buy one, go here and rent it.

http://www.reamerrentals.com/6.5mm.htm

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** November 16, 2004, 06:11:30 PM »

Thanks Handi, What would be involved in a DIY chamber reaming?

lik2hunt · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2004, 02:00:18 AM »

I think Mitch in MI already has the 30-30 AI reamer guys.
How about considering a 30-06 AI. You can still shoot the factory ammo in a pinch with this one too. Mac......when ya gonna chime in on this one?

yukonjim · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2004, 03:41:51 AM »

Did a search on Google and 4-D Products out of Georgia rent reamers for $25 (10 days) along with a $85 deposit. They list a 7.62x54R reamer. Here is the link: http://4-dproducts.com/chamber_reamers.html

Yukonjim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2004, 03:44:22 AM »

Quote from: lik2hunt

I think Mitch in MI already has the 30-30 AI reamer guys.
How about considering a 30-06 AI. You can still shoot the factory ammo in a pinch with this one too. Mac......when ya gonna chime in on this one?

Won't really do any good to...but I still would like to know how they are going to make up the difference with the 30-30 AI's shorter case in a barrel that can't be set back....

Now...going 30-06 AI in a standard 30-30 barrel...great idea if I do say so...clean up the chamber and the throat...making sure everything is in perfect alignment...having the Leade...exactly where you want it...this is the best way to go....Even Handirifle has a good choice for a conversion....338-06...very good lagitamized wildcat...thanks to A-Square...and even chambered by Weatherby...take a standard 30-06 case...neck it up to .338 and have the barrel rebored to .338.. and Viaola' much better selection for those wanting a non-magnum large bore...but one could even go one further with it...even at the expense of having custom dies for it... put a 25 deg shoulder on it would make it a 338-06 Scovill...and one further...40 deg and you got 338-06 AI...AI...not that I would try to jam in 7-11 grains more powder...but using standard loadings...plus the fact of the 40 deg shoulder and no taper...better case life...less back thrust...

Mac

tallyho · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2004, 07:39:50 AM »

I just acquired a 30/30 a couple of weeks ago and am interested in the possiblities of an AI conversion. I'd like more info on what is required for a DIY chamber job like quickdtoo says. Mine is in the 'low power' category, can't have a high pressure barrel, so other options like the 30-06 AI etc. conversions are not on the table.

If a communal purchase of a reamer is in the works, put me on the list.

Cheers
Kerry

Longcruise · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2004, 07:46:11 AM »

Quote

I bought my 30-30 Handi new in January so I think it should handle the pressure without any problems.

Not necessarily so :shock:

You need to call NEF and ask them to tell you what barrels they would fit to your action. My 30-30 for example is suitable only for the pistol rounds, the 45-70, the Huntsman ML, etc.

wtxbadger · « **Reply #17 on:** November 17, 2004, 03:09:37 PM »

Thanks for all of the feedback on this. I talked to a customer service rep with H&R and she says that any handi rifle manufactured no more than six years ago can be fitted with a 30-06 barrel. I picked that round as it would seem to be similar to the 7.62x54R pressure wise.
Called Barnaul ammunition today and their bullet diameter is .310. Called Wolf and the rep was not sure and will call me back with the diameter?. I have contacted two gunsmiths by email, one did not have the reamer and go/no go gauges wanted the price of them and his normal fee for rechambering. I can understand his point, as the request for rechambering to the russian cartridge iwould not be something asked for very often. However at $275 plus shipping that gives me pause on utilizing him for the project. The other gunsmith I contacted quoted a price of $100 plus shipping. This included removing the old caliber designation on the barrel and remarking it with the new one.
Looks like I will be mulling this over for a few days.

wtxbadger

Major · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2004, 03:27:57 PM »

Quote from: Mac11700

Snip...

Won't really do any good to...but I still would like to know how they are going to make up the difference with the 30-30 AI's shorter case in a barrel that can't be set back....

Snip...

Mac

The .30-30 AI is not shorter than the .30-30 Winchester. While the overall case length is .03 shorter the overall loaded shell length is the same. The shoulder is moved forward and made into a steeper angle so the original chamber is cleaned up except for the overall case length. You can leave you cases longer if you want but it makes little difference in how well the round shoots. Some of the case taper is also taken out so that also helps the clean up process of the old chamber.

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2004, 04:57:43 PM »

ok the 3040 krag i built was 10 years ago so it was on a old mod. action..i thank you will find no 762 54 factory loaded 308 bullets....3030 case is only so big.....3040 is larger no way to make a 3030 case this big even if you blue out to 35 cal...bottem line you will grt more powder in 3040 than any 3030......you wont haveto worry about reaming the 308 barrel to 311for the 762 54...ihad a hard time 7 years ago finding reloadabe brass for 762 54.....another thing will your 3030 barrel shoot a 200 plus grain bullet accuratelt now????if it wont,what will you do????i can tell you i was loading 3040 krags real fast 168 gr bthp.remember the 3040 is like 45 long the factory loads are slow,because of old guns and actions...just my two cents worth....ok now i also had a 762 39 handloaded with 308 bullets on a h&r.im sure it was chambered to 311 also never had any problems with it...this was 7 or 8 years ago also...so another old low pressure action .....

Longcruise · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2004, 05:03:33 PM »

Quote

I talked to a customer service rep with H&R and she says that any handi rifle manufactured no more than six years ago can be fitted with a 30-06 barrel.

In that case you are probably ok. I bought two 30-30.12gauge combos last spring from a local dealer. Both spankin new in the boxes. When I called to find out about the barrels they would take I was told they were built in 1995 :eek: Guess they were slow movers in that shop

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2004, 08:05:15 PM »

Quote

The .30-30 AI is not shorter than the .30-30 Winchester. While the overall case length is .03 shorter the overall loaded shell length is the same.

The 30-30 AI case is shorter...by .039"....gee...isn't it a coinsidence...that everyone knows you have to have this much for a crush fit of the factory loads...and this is why the barrels are set back a thread...How are you planning on doing that with the Handi?

? Have you done a chamber cast to see how much extra you got before the leade starts in front of the case mouth...

NEF's specs are very generous to say the least...call them and ask them......

While the small reduction of taper helps somewhat in correcting very small mistakes to the chamber being off axis with the bore...a-lot of our guns have some serious problems.....and this small amount won't correct it most of the time...again...this is a reason for going to the larger case size....

I've talked to quite a few reputable gunsmiths and rifle builders....they all agreed on one thing...it would be far better to go to a much larger case and completely remove any of the old chamber and throat...and to insure that it was perfectly in line with the bore...this and when they cut the new chamber and they are able to insure you can have a .04" crush fit....and still fire factory ammo without having casehead seperation...

The 30-40 Craig AI ....and the 30-06 AI are the best candidates for doing just that...and most smiths have access to the reamers for doing this...if your going to go to the trouble of rechambering to anything...make it worth while and have a better chance of better accuracy when you do...no-one says you have to try to load either one of them to the max...and you really shouldn't anyway...but the overall advantages are better for the larger cases than just gaining a 100 fps or so...and the cost of 30-30 brass isn't that much...so the off set isn't that great on that issue for the round

Now...if you want to have to shim up the barrel to try to get the crush fit...go for it...good luck on getting it to work easily and correctly...as for me...I would much rather have it done correctly the first time...than run the risk of trashing a barrel...

Mac

Major · « **Reply #22 on:** November 18, 2004, 01:43:32 PM »

Quote

The 30-30 AI case is shorter...by .039"....gee...isn't it a coinsidence...that everyone knows you have to have this much for a crush fit of the factory loads...and this is why the barrels are set back a thread...How are you planning on doing that with the Handi??

OK, you lost me here. What do you mean by crush fit? If you are talking headspace on the shoulder? The .30-30 headspaces on the rim, that is why there is a rim. Everybody knows that, or I thought they did until now. All Ackley Improved modifications, at least the ones in his book, are achieved by moving the shoulder forward, changing the angle and removing some taper in the body of the casing. According to Ackley's own words in his book none of these modifications to rimmed cartridges require setting back the barrel. That is the beauty of his improvements.

All the difference in case length between the two is all in the neck area and is just part of the freebore of the chamber. We all know that the Handi's are cut long there anyway. The only time you need to worry about the case mouth location on most ammo is on straight wall cases that are rimless and headspace on the case mouth rim or if you have a rifle with a real short freebore, which some rifles do have, but not the Handi's.

Just so you understand, the reason the AI case is shorter is because whenever a case is increased in diameter or has its shoulder angle increased the brass overall length will shrink. Where do you think the extra material to increase the case diameter comes from? Once the modifications to the brass are done you canÂ’t stretch it back out to the starting length now can you. All you have is extra freebore as I have already stated.

Firing the round will, in time however, stretch the case back out but you do not need to trim it until you reach the limit of the original .30-30 case and with a Handi even then it may not matter that much.

Another thing I will add here is that the Ackley Improvements for the rimmed cases do not add any back thrust to the case head so this is even a modification that can be done to the older rifles with the cast iron frames that were made in .30-30.

lik2hunt · « **Reply #23 on:** November 18, 2004, 03:52:34 PM »

I think it would be worth a couple phone calls to various REAL gunsmiths to see what they have to say about the 30-30 AI case headspacing on the rim. And also about the crush fit. The crush fit is to prevent case head seperation. Or so I've been told :wink: .

lik2hunt · « **Reply #24 on:** November 18, 2004, 04:06:35 PM »

I WISH that my Ultra 25-06 had been crush fit by H&R when they had it back the many times that they did. BUT....if it had been checked out before leaving the factory in the first place then I wouldn't have had these problems..........http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=45255&highlight=h+r+cs

Major · « **Reply #25 on:** November 18, 2004, 05:02:07 PM »

OK guy. Please call a gunsmith if it will help you understand this because if you donÂ’t then you should not be reloading or making any modifications to your rifles. While I am not a ballistics tech I am an engineer and understand pressure, material reactions and material limits as well as machining.

Here is a quick course:

All rimmed cases headspace on the rim, belted cases headspace on the belt face, straight wall cases that have a rim headspace on the rim, straight wall cases that are rimless headspace on the case mouth and most bottleneck cases headspace on the shoulder. There are a very few cases that even use a combination two of these methods but they are very few and far between.

You will not be able to close any action whether it is break open, bolt or lever if you are trying to crush any round .039 inches. Maybe .0039 you could but please note the extra zero there. If there is even a thing called crush fit it is new to me and I have been reloading for about 40 years now. All ammo must be smaller (by a very few thousands of an inch) or you can not get your action to close or if you somehow managed to get it closed then you will have one heck of a time extracting the round even without firing the round.

When you fire a round the first thing that happens is the case expands to grip the chamber walls, then the additional thrust goes for and aft. The metal in the case actually flows to form to the chamber and helps to form a gas seal. The metal flow is why you can fireform some wildcat cartridges. Now if the case is too small (or the chamber too big) or if the pressure is too high then the case metal will split or tear. It is the over pressure that causes case head separation or case cracking. If you check the reloading manuals most fireform loads are reduced or at least mild. Now when all these conditions are correctly met then the bullet will be the weak link and start to move down the barrel.

If you have a round that headspaces on the shoulder and the round is case resized to short when resizing then what may happen is the firing pin will push the round forward until it hit the headspace stop and may not have enough force to fire the primer too. If a small round does go off and it is not of too high of pressure then you have just fire-formed that shell case to that chamber. Most bench-rest competition shooters only neck size their cases because that close fit is one way to increase accuracy.

I will even go so far as to say that if you managed to crush a case that much (.039 inches) into a smaller chamber then you will be creating a dangerous over-pressure condition.

And if you believe anything I have said then believe this. Check everything you hear or are told 2 or 3 different places before you believe it. That goes for what I have said here too. DonÂ’t just read and believe what you find on the Internet about this. Read what the manufacturers say about this in their reloading manuals and read 2 or 3 of those too so you donÂ’t accidentally follow a typo in just one manual.

What you have in those shells you shoot is in fact a controlled pipe bomb so treat them with respect and for Gods sake know what you are doing before you ever make a modification of any kind. I have tried to keep this simple so I hope I didn't forget something.

PS: why not start by sending a PM to Graybeard. He knows this stuff too, probably better than I do.

Fred M · « **Reply #26 on:** November 18, 2004, 05:24:16 PM »

The Clymer chamber reamer drawing for the 30-30AI is 2.043 including a .063 rim. The 30-30 case is 2.039. The case head spaces on the rim same as the standard 30-30.

The shoulder on the AI moves forward about .126" depending who is making the reamer. Clymer's neck length is .373 some others are .350". Like in all AI's the case shortens from .012 to .018. I know for sure the 243 AI shortens .012"
and the 6mm .018. Don't know how much the 30-30 AI shortens.

With the 30-30 AI there is no such thing as a crush fit and the barrel is not set back unless you have a crappy 30-30 chamber, in which case the Handi wont qualify for the conversion..

Once the 30-30 case is fire formed, then the die should be set up so the new formed case head spaces on the shoulder with a .003" head space.
This will give the new case very long life. .001 would be better but that wont work to well in a Handi because of action stretch.

I found that in the 25-06 Ultra .003" head space worked very well. Due to the long sloping shoulder on this cartridge combined with action stretch there were signs of case head separation and forward brass flow after eight reloads.

This is practically eliminated with the steep 40 deg shoulder on the AI. Also the case will be subjected to a .003" stretch each time it is loaded. Cases will not last as long as they would in a bolt action which can operate with zero head space.

The Clymer chamber reamer is designed to fire 30-30 factory loaded ammo to make the new brass or you can fire form brass with inert filler and 700x shotgun powder.

Major · « **Reply #27 on:** November 18, 2004, 05:43:34 PM »

You are right Fred, the only reason to ever set back any barrel on any rifle for any rechambering job is to make sure the reamer is cutting metal not air. There is no other reason.

The .30-30 AI or any other modified rimmed case still headspaces on the rim and we try to get the shoulder as close as possible to the new location when reloading to keep from overworking the case brass. It's that simple.

Fred M · « **Reply #28 on:** November 18, 2004, 07:01:51 PM »

Major.
The reason for head spacing on the shoulder is rather obvious because of the various rim dimension the brass has. For instance the Federal brand 30-30 rim measures from .056" to .058", now with a chamber rebate of .063 as per Clymer drawing and god knows what the rim rebate is on a Handi we are talking about .009" head space. How long do you think the brass will last with that much head space?

In a situation like that you want to fire form with lubed brass and or Jam a bullet into the lands if you use hand loads so the case will fully fill the chamber then you set up the die to head space on the shoulder with .003" head space. It is really very simple and from that point on the rim only serves to pull the case out.

Note: For your info the above also applies to any belted magnum case when reloading them.

If you think that .009" is a lot, try to reload 303 Brit without head spacing on the shoulder these critters come apart after 3 or 4 reloads. 303 rims are notoriously bad because they are made all over the world. That is why they make three different size bolts head for these rifles so you can adjust the head space.

In Canada CIL used to make 303 target ammo for the military which was very good. Selected Mk 4 rifles where super accurate with this ammo. Best not play with 303 wildcats if can't get good brass.

Reloading rimmed brass takes special attention to details. The 30 Aardvark bench rest cartridge is made from 30-30 brass and has the rim turned off and an extractor groove machined in for just the above reasons. The Aardvark is basically a 30-30AI.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #29 on:** November 19, 2004, 05:08:41 AM »

I would not worry a bit about .310 bullets in a Handi bore. The Finns built the best of the Moisin Nagants and they built them with a .308 groove diameter. Handi's mostly run a bit loose, anyway, but .002 is nothing to worry about.