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Offline warf73

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Wal-Mart good or bad?
« on: November 17, 2004, 07:10:36 PM »
» Is Wal-Mart Good for America?
Tuesday, November 16, at 9pm, 60 minutes

In Circleville, Ohio, population 13,000, the local RCA television manufacturing plant was once a source of good jobs with good pay and benefits. But in late 2003, RCA's owner, Thomson Consumer Electronics, lost a sizeable portion of its production orders and six months later shut the plant down, throwing 1,000 people out of work.

Thomson's jobs have moved to China, where cheap labor manufactures what the American consumer desires--from clothing to electronics--and can buy at "everyday low prices" at the local Wal-Mart.

On Tuesday, November 16, at 9 P.M. on PBS (check local listings), FRONTLINE® explores the relationship between U.S. job losses and the American consumer's insatiable desire for bargains in "Is Wal-Mart Good for America?" Through interviews with retail executives, product manufacturers, economists, and trade experts, correspondent Hedrick Smith examines the growing controversy over the Wal-Mart way of doing business and asks whether a single retail giant has changed the American economy.

"Wal-Mart's power and influence are awesome," Smith says. "By figuring out how to exploit two powerful forces that converged in the 1990s--the rise of information and the explosion of the global economy--Wal-Mart has dramatically changed the balance of power in the world of business. Retailers are now more powerful than manufacturers, and they are forcing the decision to move production offshore."

In the case of Thomson Consumer Electronics, that's exactly what happened. Thomson was manufacturing picture tubes for Sanyo, a leading television brand. Like many other suppliers, Sanyo was feeling the squeeze from Wal-Mart to reduce costs or lose the business altogether. In the end, Sanyo shifted its buy orders from Thomson to a foreign supplier.

"Wal-Mart has reversed a hundred year history that had the retailer dependent on the manufacturer," explains Nelson Lichtenstein, a professor at the University of California Santa Barbara. "Now the retailer is the center, the power, and the manufacturer becomes the serf, the vassal, the underling who has to do the bidding of the retailer. That's a new thing."

To understand the secret of Wal-Mart's success, Smith travels from the company's headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas, to their global procurement center in Shenzhen, China, where several hundred employees work to keep the company's import pipeline running smoothly. Of Wal-Mart's 6,000 global suppliers, experts estimate that as many as eighty percent are based in China.

"Wal-Mart has a very close relationship with China," says Duke University Professor Gary Gereffi. "China is the largest exporter to the U.S. economy in virtually all consumer goods categories. Wal-Mart is the leading retailer in the U.S. economy in virtually all consumer goods categories. Wal-Mart and China are a joint venture."

When trade agreements were signed between the U.S. and China in the 1990s, bringing China into the World Trade Organization, American political and business leaders embraced the idea. China's 1.2 billion people were viewed as an enormous untapped market for American-made goods. The reality, experts say, is the opposite. China's exports to the U.S. have skyrocketed.

Australian Donald Hay was one of the first entrepreneurs to spot opportunity in China's rice fields. Twenty years ago he set up his company, Hayco, just north of Shenzhen. Today he supplies big American companies like 3M, Procter & Gamble, and Wal-Mart with home cleaning products, toothbrushes, and other household items.

"What's happened is the world has come here as a marketplace," says Hay. "It's like a supermarket for manufacturing today and the quality is up to world standards, in a long way, past world standards....The people are enthusiastic, they're good workers."

At a salary of only fifty cents an hour or one hundred dollars a month, Chinese labor is an unbeatable bargain for businessmen like Hay. And the Chinese government is doing everything it can to be sure the country's infrastructure supports the export business. Ten years ago Shenzhen's main port did not exist. Today it's on the verge of becoming the third busiest port in the world.

Wal-Mart estimates it imports $15 billion of Chinese goods every year and concedes that the figure could be higher--some estimates range as high as $20 or $30 billion. Company executives are quick to point out they have always scoured the globe for low cost suppliers to benefit the American consumer.

"We do depend on products from around the globe to draw our consumers into the stores," says Ray Bracy, Wal-Mart's vice president for federal and international public affairs. "We feel they need to have the best product, the best value, at the best price we can achieve."

Some experts contend Wal-Mart's "everyday low prices" are causing a clash between the interests of Americans as workers and the desires of Americans as consumers.

"If people were only consumers, buying things at lower prices would be just good. But people also are workers who need to earn a decent standard of living," says economist Larry Michel of the Economic Policy Institute. "The dynamics that create lower prices at Wal-Mart and other places are also undercutting the ability of many, many workers to earn decent wages and benefits and have a stable life."

Economist Brink Lindsey of the Cato Institute sees it another way. "I think Wal-Mart is good for America," he says. "Wal-Mart is doing what the American economy is all about, which is producing things consumers want to buy...offering consumers a wide range of goods at rock-bottom prices. It is meeting the market test."

This is little consolation to the unemployed workers back in Circleville, Ohio. Steve Ratcliff, a long-time worker at the Thomson plant puts it simply: "If you want these low prices, then you go buy your products from Wal-Mart. But what does that actually do for this country? It's putting people out of work. And it's lowering our standard of living. That's the bottom line."

Ironically, for Ratcliff and his former colleagues, there are new jobs coming to town. In a patch of farmland right next to the vacant Thomson plant, Wal-Mart has broken ground on one of its new supercenters. But the Wal-Mart jobs will represent a steep cut in pay from the $15 to $16 an hour workers made at Thomson, and a far cry from the pension, health care, and job security benefits that have long been the norm in manufacturing.

 

"Is Wal-Mart Good for America?" is a FRONTLINE co-production with Hedrick Smith Productions. The senior producer and correspondent is Hedrick Smith. The producer is Rick Young. The executive producer for special projects for FRONTLINE is Michael Sullivan.

In conjunction with the television broadcast, FRONTLINE and Marketplace will produce two radio reports based upon Hedrick Smith's investigation. The segments air Tuesday, November 16, on Marketplace and the Marketplace Morning Report. The reports are produced by Rick Young for FRONTLINE and by Stephen Henn for American RadioWorks.

FRONTLINE is produced by WGBH Boston and is broadcast nationwide on PBS.

Funding for FRONTLINE is provided through the support of PBS viewers. Additional funding for "Is Wal-Mart Good for America?" is provided by The Nathan Cummings Foundation.

FRONTLINE is closed-captioned for deaf and hard-of-hearing viewers.

FRONTLINE is a registered trademark of WGBH Educational Foundation.

The executive producer for FRONTLINE is David Fanning.

 

Press contacts:
Erin Martin Kane
Chris Kelly
(617) 300-3500
frontline_promotion@wgbh.org

FRONTLINE XXIII/November 2004
"Life isn't like a box of chocolates...It's more like
a jar of jalapenos.  What you do today, might burn
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2004, 10:59:24 PM »
While some may say walmart is bad for American workers It is one of the few places I can afford to buy things these days. Folks better face it that the US will become a service/Tech related economy as it is becoming now and that factory jobs will be regulated over seas. I read this over 20 years ago and it is becoming true. Jobs for our basic needs will always be here as I suppose some local manufacturing but the bigger companies are going to go where the cheap labor is. You can blame the politicians all you want I still blame the unions. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that the unions asking for more bennies and higher wages all the time have forced the companies to go else where so their profit margin still stays high. You union folks can blame the companies all you want but the bottom line for these folks and their share holders are profit and the unions constant strikes or demands  for more wages and bennies has caused these outfits to go elsewhere. SO now instead of your high wages you are out of a job and criticise the companies or the politicians. Better look to your union first and consider the reasons why you do not have a job anymore. I am not saying there was not a use for unions for the safety and welfare of workers that was needed but the union greed over took the unions concern for their workers years ago. Think I am wrong than how do you explain union ties to organized crime that is well documented?  This is a unfortunate situation for the union workers and their families who had good jobs and now lost them. Unfortunately I think the trend has started and I do believe not much can be done about it. Every time Kerry said he would keep American jobs in this country I about fell out of my chair laughing. I do not see how any politician is going to stop companies going over seas. Since there are more poor and moderate income folks in this country they are not going to stand for not having cheaper priced items anymore either so I think the bar has been set and things will never be the same again as far as large company jobs in America again. Too bad but that is how I see it.  Jim
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Offline bullet maker

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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2004, 12:07:08 AM »
Sorry Jim, but I have to disagree :D
   Mexico, china, or any 3rd rate country, is always, going to be cheaper than the U.S.A. Why? because they have no choice, there company`s are usually under government control. So therefore labor is cheap. Rather words, its hard to compete with company`s thats paying their employees, $2.00 an hour, don't you think? We cant compete with foreign plants, we cant feed our familys on fish heads and rice, or $2.00 an hour. These people live 12 to an apartment. Its called slave wages. No sir, we can`t compete with those type of conditions.
   There is a profit margin, that any company needs to make, after that its called price gouging. Ever wonder how much money is in a 12oz can of pop? Back in 1967, it was .03 cents. What has that got to do with anything?  Our companys, is making hugh profits, which is good for the economy, but not sharing those profits with the workers, is bad.
   As far as the unions, being the blame, I don`t know of to many unions anymore. I think that most of them was busted, back when Reagan was president.
   No, there got to be a more sinister reason than unions, I think its greed from these money hungry, companys, or a conspiracy, to make us Americans, a third rate country, as far as wages, or earned income. Why? I dunno. Go figure,

bullet maker :D

P.S. there is a new report out, that says that this is the first time in the history of man, that our kids, will not do as well as us, finacilly.
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Offline Big Hext Finnigan

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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2004, 02:08:03 AM »
Wal-Mart (and all the discount houses) has power because WE, the consumer, have given them our financial allegiance over and over again.

They did not create the demand, simply responded to it.  I do my best to buy from local sources, but find it an uphill battle for two reasons.  The first being that the small places seem to be closed or closing and WM ends up being the only choice.  The second is that the service at many Ma & Pa shops is truly pitiful, if I'm going to be poorly served, I will not pay a premium for the product.

We are in a cycle in the world economy that is new to all of us.  We can no longer count on the US's economic power to ensure our personal financial success.  We will need to return to the roots of our country and become the excellent artisans and producers that created the power that our nation has squandered.
But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.  - Edmund Burke

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2004, 03:32:50 AM »
ABSOLUTELY Right Big Hext.  People jump up and down and cry about wal-mart destroying local areas and putting little stores out of business.  Now think carefully about this, if the precious "little store" was so great, why is everyone going to wal-mart?  In this country we have the right to choose whatever store most fits our needs, wal-mart fits my needs, and I like them.  If you don't like them, and if most people agree with your view, the small stores will stay in business and wal-mart wouldn't be so successful

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2004, 03:46:28 AM »
Quote from: bullet maker
Sorry Jim, but I have to disagree :D
   Mexico, china, or any 3rd rate country, is always, going to be cheaper than the U.S.A. Why? because they have no choice, there company`s are usually under government control. So therefore labor is cheap. Rather words, its hard to compete with company`s thats paying their employees, $2.00 an hour, don't you think? We cant compete with foreign plants, we cant feed our familys on fish heads and rice, or $2.00 an hour. These people live 12 to an apartment. Its called slave wages. No sir, we can`t compete with those type of conditions.
   There is a profit margin, that any company needs to make, after that its called price gouging. Ever wonder how much money is in a 12oz can of pop? Back in 1967, it was .03 cents. What has that got to do with anything?  Our companys, is making hugh profits, which is good for the economy, but not sharing those profits with the workers, is bad.
   As far as the unions, being the blame, I don`t know of to many unions anymore. I think that most of them was busted, back when Reagan was president.
   No, there got to be a more sinister reason than unions, I think its greed from these money hungry, companys, or a conspiracy, to make us Americans, a third rate country, as far as wages, or earned income. Why? I dunno. Go figure,

bullet maker :D

P.S. there is a new report out, that says that this is the first time in the history of man, that our kids, will not do as well as us, finacilly.


I agree with some of your points and yea the companies are to blame as much as the unions I guess I did not make that clear but combine it together and you get what we have today. I agree with the price gouging we see that in gas prices today. The inflated Dollar does not stretch as far either but no matter what the cause we are going to have to live with it. I have seen that once something changes and folks accept it, it's darn hard to go back to the way it was. You are right their are more causes than just the unions but I still feel they had a big part of it. Like I said before the idea of a union is not bad to protect the workers but where do you draw the line? Lots of folks who never had a union job survive and live while not as comfortably as the higher paid union folks do still make out and some jobs are not union and still pay good wages and benifits and treat their employees well. I feel the unions brain wash a lot of their members that if they do not belong to a union there goes their jobs well we can see that did not work as they lost them anyway. BUT instead of blaming the all holy union they blame every one BUT. Like I said before it has been predicted that the US will become a service/Tech type of society and while that may not come to pass 100% they sure have a good start on it.
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Offline warf73

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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2004, 01:32:30 AM »
Good idea lets just blame the UNIONS.

They are always trying to screw the American workers.

The UNIONS are the ones off loading all the products and goods to over seas companys so they can FATTEN there wallets.

The UNION members ALL make a starting wage of at least $5millon a year plus stock options heck even some union members make over $100million a year before stock options.

Dam I bet the UNION even lied to there share holders and fudged the books and  made 5 major companies go out of business putting 1000's of there workers on the street in the last 3 years.

Your right it’s the UNIONS that is bringing the country to its knees.

Them DAM UNIONS
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2004, 01:50:20 AM »
Quote from: warf73
Good idea lets just blame the UNIONS.

They are always trying to screw the American workers.

Your right it’s the UNIONS that is bringing the country to its knees.

Them DAM UNIONS

Dali Llama say he wholeheartedly concur with warf73 regarding the above sentiments.
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Offline NYH1

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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2004, 06:02:25 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
You can blame the politicians all you want I still blame the unions. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that the unions asking for more bennies and higher wages all the time have forced the companies to go else where so their profit margin still stays high. You union folks can blame the companies all you want but the bottom line for these folks and their share holders are profit and the unions constant strikes or demands  for more wages and bennies has caused these outfits to go elsewhere. SO now instead of your high wages you are out of a job and criticise the companies or the politicians. Better look to your union first and consider the reasons why you do not have a job anymore. I am not saying there was not a use for unions for the safety and welfare of workers that was needed but the union greed over took the unions concern for their workers years ago. Think I am wrong than how do you explain union ties to organized crime that is well documented?  This is a unfortunate situation for the union workers and their families who had good jobs and now lost them.   Jim


Lets look at this another way. Union's make up 11% to 13% of the work force in this country. I'm sure you knew this!  :shock: Now out of that 11% to 13%, just about all Police, fire fighters, school teacher's, Airline pilot's, and most municipality worker's are union. That's over half of the "Union Work Force"  in this country that doesn't make or produce anything! I'm sure you knew that too! :shock: So that leaves us with lets say 6% of the work force to blame for the other 94% of the work force loosing there jobs??? Do your homework Jim. You always say the same things about union's and most of the time you don't know what your talking about.

 Just because you lost "the best job you ever had" (and didn't mind the union while you had it and cashed your checks :eek: ) because the "union" and "company" had a "Negotiated" agreement about past injuries that was "protected by Federal law" doesn't make it the union fault! You just can't seem to get this!

If you don't like unions thats fine. But at least know what your talking about!
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2004, 10:01:21 AM »
Quote from: New York Hunter
Do your homework Jim. You always say the same things about union's and most of the time you don't know what your talking about.

 
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2004, 09:17:36 PM »
Well, NYH and Warf the union guys are always going to stick up for their union and the folks against them will still say they have problems. Every thing I stated you cannot tell me there is not some truth to it. In the same respect I believe what you say about them BUT it is not all cut and dried and  unions are not a candidate for sainthood no more than the companies are.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2004, 04:30:30 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
the union guys are always going to stick up for their union and the folks against them will still say they have problems.

Do Honorable jh45gun perchance be saying that the more things change, the more they stay the same, ask Dali Llama? :grin:  :D
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2004, 04:39:24 AM »
Warf,I too watch Frontline.WalMart is Low cost for low value at low wages and high volume.PERIOD and the UNIONS LOVE IT.PERIOD
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Offline NYH1

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« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2004, 05:00:44 AM »
Quote from: jh45gun
In the same respect I believe what you say about them BUT it is not all cut and dried and  unions are not a candidate for sainthood no more than the companies are.


You are correct my friend! :grin:
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Offline Wolfdog

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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2004, 07:55:07 AM »
I have noticed this debate on many web forums out there and there is one thing that never seems to be brought up in the discussions.

  That one thing is the fact that at least in the southeast, most factories seem to be following the trend of laying off workers that ere being paid a higher wage and then making up the production loss by hiring temp workers through the huge temp services like Manpower and Addecco.

  Manpower , last I heard was one of the largest employers in the US.  This tells me that they are competing and winning our jobs by offering to do the jobs that many of us refuse or dislike doing at lower wages by providing a nevrending stream of willing, though low paid workers to do the jobs for us while many sit and complain about losing our jobs or about how we don't get paid enough.

 The cost of living in the US in many ways is far higher than many of the wages that are available in this country.  I did some figuring a couple of years ago while looking for a job after the Navy and discovered that in the state of North Carolina, (Western NC to be exact) that to live and provide for yourself, you needed to be pulling in an average of 10 dollars an hour.  

  Guess what the average wage was available unless you were a long term (read 6+ years on the job) factory or production worker.  Approximately 7.00 to 9.00 an hour.  Heck McDonald's starts you out at 7.00 an hour.

  It isn't the unions, it isn't the Temp companies, and it isn't the big companies sending jobs overseas that are the cause of the financial problems in this country.  It IS in fact that this country has a disposable mentality as a whole.  We use goods like they won't last and then we replace them when they break without even looking to get them fixed in most cases.  This has prompted the shift in our economy from a production based economy to a service based economy, and Wal-Mart has merely stepped up to the plate and provided exactly what the US consumers as a whole have been begging for.

  The problem is, that now people are complaining about the loss of jobs that they asked for because they didn't take the long view and see that by wanting cheap, low cost goods, that they would have to also be willing to provide, cheap, low cost labor to produce them.  Instead our factories have gone to the only place that will provide that labor, since the US work force isn't willing to do the work for what the employers want to pay for it.


  It's simple economics.  , as a workforce didn't sell our product, our labor, to the companies so they went elsewhere to find it cheaper.

Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2004, 12:18:32 AM »
Quote from: Wolfdog
I have noticed this debate on many web forums out there and there is one thing that never seems to be brought up in the discussions.

  That one thing is the fact that at least in the southeast, most factories seem to be following the trend of laying off workers that ere being paid a higher wage and then making up the production loss by hiring temp workers through the huge temp services like Manpower and Addecco.

  Manpower , last I heard was one of the largest employers in the US.  This tells me that they are competing and winning our jobs by offering to do the jobs that many of us refuse or dislike doing at lower wages by providing a nevrending stream of willing, though low paid workers to do the jobs for us while many sit and complain about losing our jobs or about how we don't get paid enough.

 The cost of living in the US in many ways is far higher than many of the wages that are available in this country.  I did some figuring a couple of years ago while looking for a job after the Navy and discovered that in the state of North Carolina, (Western NC to be exact) that to live and provide for yourself, you needed to be pulling in an average of 10 dollars an hour.  

  Guess what the average wage was available unless you were a long term (read 6+ years on the job) factory or production worker.  Approximately 7.00 to 9.00 an hour.  Heck McDonald's starts you out at 7.00 an hour.

  It isn't the unions, it isn't the Temp companies, and it isn't the big companies sending jobs overseas that are the cause of the financial problems in this country.  It IS in fact that this country has a disposable mentality as a whole.  We use goods like they won't last and then we replace them when they break without even looking to get them fixed in most cases.  This has prompted the shift in our economy from a production based economy to a service based economy, and Wal-Mart has merely stepped up to the plate and provided exactly what the US consumers as a whole have been begging for.

  The problem is, that now people are complaining about the loss of jobs that they asked for because they didn't take the long view and see that by wanting cheap, low cost goods, that they would have to also be willing to provide, cheap, low cost labor to produce them.  Instead our factories have gone to the only place that will provide that labor, since the US work force isn't willing to do the work for what the employers want to pay for it.


  It's simple economics.  , as a workforce didn't sell our product, our labor, to the companies so they went elsewhere to find it cheaper.



You bring up some excellent points and one I have noticed is about a workforce not willing to do the work. Lots of folks complain about migrant workers from Mexico in this country working, but yet they would never do that type of work themselves. Or even folks here if they figure a job is beneath them it is easier to say I cannot find work than to take that job no matter how distastefull it is to them. Before I became disabled I took lots of jobs I did not really care for but I took them at least it was work and until something better came along. You are right about the disposable mentality but is that our fault I wonder or the companies and we have gotten used to it? Products used to be made to last. Now days they are not. The average VCR is made to last 3 years. This I was told by a tech. Yea some last longer and some of the old ones are still going but the companies figured out if they break faster we can sell more and make a better profit.  Glad to see guns are still being made good and even some of those are cheapened by stamped and cast parts and plastics these days.
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Offline bullet maker

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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2004, 03:04:32 AM »
Here`s my  :money: worth.

When I was a young man, I worked for what they condersiderd today below minimum wage. But I was living at home with mom and dad, until at the tender age of 18, I joined the Army. I made enough to buy my first, bicyle, then at 16 bought my first car. Ahh the memories of that first car, it was a 1952 chevrolet deluxe, with the 5 windows, lots of drivein`s movies with my date, Ahhhhhh, ------.oh I got to get back to the subject :oops:  anyhow I didn`t have to pay the rent, utilities, taxes, etc. Now when I got out of the Army, I held several jobs that paid minimum wage, and lived at the YMCA. Barely made it from pay day to pay day. If I was married, I couldn`t. All of the jobs and there was a lot, were non union. Finally, I got on at the Burlington Northern RailRoad, which is Union. I made great wages, got married and lived happy ever after.

   My point is, if it ain`t union, your getting screwed. period. The company`s today, are all for profits at any cost. Wait till around Christmas time and you will see all of the layoff`s from the non-union companys. Here in Oklahoma, a new study say`s that minimum wage should be $10.00 hr. just to meet the poverty line. There are no company meets that except for the union jobs.

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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2004, 06:10:17 AM »
Quote from: bullet maker
When I was a young man...I held several jobs that paid minimum wage, and lived at the YMCA.


http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/ymca.htm --  :grin:  :D
AKA "Blademan52" from Marlin Talk

Offline bullet maker

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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2004, 08:40:34 AM »
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: bullet maker
When I was a young man...I held several jobs that paid minimum wage, and lived at the YMCA.


http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/ymca.htm --  :grin:  :D


Classic,--- :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)

bullet maker :D
I like to make bullets, handload, shooting of all types, hunting, fishing, taking pictures, reading, grandchildren, 4 wheeling, eating out often.

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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2004, 02:05:01 PM »
Quote from: bullet maker
Quote from: Dali Llama
Quote from: bullet maker
When I was a young man...I held several jobs that paid minimum wage, and lived at the YMCA.


http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/ymca.htm --  :grin:  :D


Classic,--- :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)

bullet maker :D
:grin: Dali Llama say he glad bullet maker appreciate humor. :grin:   Dali say that use of "young man" and "YMCA" in same post led him to humorous ancient mental association he unable to resist recalling! :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
AKA "Blademan52" from Marlin Talk