Author Topic: Kirst or R&D ? (Read 1777 times)

r800rt · « **on:** November 18, 2004, 01:34:27 AM »

Which cartridge conversion cylinder for the '58 Remington, what are your experiences?

Cactus Cris · « **Reply #1 on:** November 18, 2004, 01:30:27 PM »

I have 2 58's in .44 and 2 58's in .36--Have R&D cylinders for all 4. I enjoy the .36's the most shooting .38's with a HB 142gr rnfp from a Rapine mold with 14.5 gr. 3f Elephant. Ya can't get much more than 14+ gr. of powder in the case and still get the boolit in due to the longer sides of the HB design. You can use a regular 38 cal boolit, but accuracy will suffer. Tried it.
The .44's with the R&D cylinders shooting 45c in them with 250 rnfp from a Lyman mold with 24 gr. 2f Elephant & a wad are cool too. I just prefer the .36's cause I don't shoot 45c in anything else and I shoot 38's when I shoot FC.
You have to pull the cylinders out to load/unload and I keep a damp rag in a vest pocket to wipe the cylinder face after I dump the brass so the fouling is not a problem. I wipe the pin off after 4-5 stages and spray a little Balistol on it, reinstall the cylinder.
They are a hoot to shoot!

r800rt · « **Reply #2 on:** November 18, 2004, 02:01:57 PM »

Cool, thanks for the reply. anyone else?

leverfan · « **Reply #3 on:** November 18, 2004, 06:26:14 PM »

Quote from: Cactus Cris

The .44's with the R&D cylinders shooting 45c in them with 250 rnfp from a Lyman mold with 24 gr. 2f Elephant & a wad are cool too.

What are you using for a wad to take up space in that 45 Colt load? My wife wants to shoot blackpowder, and she has two 45s, but the kick of a full charge is a little too much for her to enjoy.

Thanks.

Flint · « **Reply #4 on:** November 18, 2004, 07:34:23 PM »

I have both Kirst and R&D cylinders in Remingtons, and in that revolver, prefer the R&D, as the Kirst seems to be harder on the softer Italian mating parts like the nose of the hand, and I see no advantage to a ported Remington, as you can change out the whole cylinder faster than you can reload through the port. That said, I prefer the ported Kirst on the Colt 51/61 Navies, as removing the barrel to reload an R&D is not practical, or good for the wedge and slot.

I recently opened the rim recess in my 45 cal R&D cylinders with a 17/32 end mill to accept the 45 Schoffield round, and that is a better cartridge for lighter loads, (smokeless or black) being shorter. While at it, in the mill, you can cut a window to see the brass rim, which is easier to check than the color coded firing pin.

Cactus Cris · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2004, 01:19:15 PM »

Leverfan- I use a wonder wad, unlubed/white. With one, the boolit just compresses the powder a tiny bit. You could use 2 if ya want to cut back on powder a little more.

leverfan · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2004, 08:39:20 PM »

Cactus-

Thanks for the info. I haven't tried the wonder wads, at least not yet.

I just came in from making a punch for cutting my own wads out of whatever seems good to me. The punch is a 4" long piece of pipe, which I heated and hammered on one end until it took on a pretty good taper. Then, I drilled out the tapered end with a 29/64" drill bit, which is .453". A little bit of work with file, grinder, and sand paper cleaned and sharpened it up. It cuts right through felt, cardboard, and what have you, and on into the wooden block underneath. The wads can be shoved into the case without too much trouble, but a 7/16" bit would have made for "drop in" wads.

Have you ever tried cork for wads? If so, how did you like it?

Cactus Cris · « **Reply #7 on:** November 20, 2004, 05:36:42 AM »

Tried cork- didn't like it. Smell was really bad! :eek: :shock: :cry: Plus it was hard to get into the case straught. Felt can go in case on and angle but can be righted with a long pin b4 ya load the boolit.

unspellable · « **Reply #8 on:** November 23, 2004, 02:32:04 AM »

Flint, where do you find real 45 Schoefield brass? Around here the brass headstamped 45 Schoefield actually has 45 Short Colt or 45 Government dimensions with the narrow rim. I have a similar problem in that I load for the 1909 Colt 45 and am forced to use 45 Colt brass with the narrow rim.

As for conversions, I have two R&D cylinders for my Ruger Old Armys. The older one has notches in the back half way between chambers like the Ruger cylinder allowing six round carry. This was the main point on which I favored it over the Kirst. I ordered up a new one and they've done away with the half way hammer rest notches. On the other hand they added the little cutouts that allow you to see if the chamber is loaded. The old one seems to work fine, haven't tried the new one yet but don't anticipate any problems.

No experience with the Kirst other than the observation that it does not permit safe six round carry.

r800rt · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2004, 12:44:46 PM »

Thanks, I've decided to go with the R&D cylinder, it is very close to the original Remington conversion cylinder. And I want a six shooter, not a five.

Flint · « **Reply #10 on:** November 24, 2004, 12:07:17 PM »

Unspellable, Midway has 45 Schofield brass, made by Starline. It has the proper Schofield dimensions. Catalog #493502 is a box of 500. Price is $60.25 fo 500. The also sell 100 lots.

unspellable · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2004, 07:37:17 AM »

I do not actually have any use for Schoefield brass, I was just making the observatiuon that all the brass I've seen headstamped 45 Schoefield actually had 45 Government or 45 Short Colt dimensions. The brass I saw was more than likely Starline, can't be very many places headstamping 45 Schoefield.

What I would like to have is 1909 Colt 45 brass and I would guess that's simply not to be had and I am stuck using 45 Colt brass.

El Confederado · « **Reply #12 on:** December 15, 2004, 08:05:56 PM »

Anybody have a link for either company or anyone who carries their products?

ed1921 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2004, 03:57:53 AM »

I have seen R&D in Midway.
I bought direct from mfgr. by phone. Sounded like a small shop, I don't think they have a website.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2004, 06:14:17 AM »

Taylor's & Co. carries the R&D cylinder and River Junction Trade Co. has Walt Kirst's cylinder.

ed1921 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2004, 05:57:10 PM »

Just happened to be cleaning up & found a flyer for R&D Gun Shop 5728 E. Country Rd X, WI 53511, 608-676-5628, jhduesterbeck@worldnet.att.net
This info is at least 5 years old. Price then was $235 & $35 nickel finish & $5 S&H.
Works great in my Old Army, although it shoots about 3"-5"high at 25 yds even w/ the sight all the way down. Only rated for cowboy loads or up to 34 g. FFG black powder or equiv.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2005, 04:01:05 AM »

I'll be the odd man out and state that I prefer the Kirst style. But then I'm a CAS fanatic! :oops: Here's a link to River Junction http://www.riverjunction.com/ which carries the Kirst products.

My reference books show both styles of conversions, some that are similar to the Kirst were done by "itinerant" gunsmiths, while Remington themselves did conversions very similar to the R&D style. Interestingly, the pics of the Remington factory conversions show a back plate like the R&D but instead of firing pins they have cutouts for the hammer nose to fall through. These were of course, made for rim fire cartridges that were the first available cartridges back then.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2005, 05:48:28 AM »

I like my Kirst just fine, too. And Walt is a true gentleman as well.

unspellable · « **Reply #18 on:** January 04, 2005, 11:36:01 AM »

How strong do you figure the RD and Old Army combo is? I'd think it ought to take any factory or level I hand load with no sweat. The Old Army frame is obviously stronger than any other cap & ball revolver frame around.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #19 on:** January 04, 2005, 12:48:30 PM »

I would think the ROA will handle pretty much any load you run through it. The only question I would have is how strong is the conversion itself. I
wonder what sort of forces would act on it under recoil from heavy loads and how much pressure the cylinders can handle. Lately I've been thinking about a 5 1/2" barrel stainless version with a conversion to use fairly stiff loads. Everyone I've talked to swears they only use mild Cowboy Action style loads. Seems like one of these guns would make a nice pack gun for days when I just don't feel like carrying a rifle but want something more than a C&B revolver.

ed1921 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2005, 04:03:25 PM »

The maker, R&D, says to use only cowboy loads or 34 gr. BP.
Can it take more? Probably, but I don't see the point in trying it.
I woudn't know what to look for in overstressing it, other than flying apart.

unspellable · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2005, 02:03:01 AM »

The R&D cylinders are supposedly proofed with standard SAAMI proof loads so they will take any factory load or level I hand load with no sweat. With the exception of the Ruger Old Army, the limitation is how much the frame will take. The replicas have old black powder designs, and in general, do not use the stronger grades of steel one expects in a modern design.

So my theory is any factory load or any level I hand load in the Ruger, cowboy loads max in all others. This said, I have a box of Winchester cowboy loads and they appear to be loaded just about as hot as the standard factory load.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2005, 06:30:18 AM »

I've never run Cowboy loads through a chronograph, but they are supposed to be light loads. In a Winchester levergun, Cowboy loads were blowing back into the action, indicating that pressure was so low that the brass was not fully expanding. Regular loads did not have this problem. If
the R&D cylinders are proofed with standard proof loads, then I would have no worries about firing stiff hand loads in them.

unspellable · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2005, 08:21:04 AM »

My Winchester splurb sheet lists the bullet weight and muzzle velocity of their cowboy load as almost identical to their standard load.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #24 on:** January 05, 2005, 08:39:52 AM »

I'm not sure which brand I was using, but I don't think it was Winchester.
PMC maybe. In my Remington with Kirst converter I got some blowback--
dark, smoky residue on the side of the case--with a couple of brands of Cowboy loads. Full cases of fffg expanded the cases and left no soot on the cases. I suspect that the converter makers are concerned with liability issues when they recommend light loads. The afore mentioned Uberti Remington has probably fired a couple of thousand rounds in percussion mode with full loads with no adverse effects and the full house black powder loads aren't harming it either. And the Ruger is way stronger than a Remington. If memory serves, the ROA was actually based on the old three screw Black Hawk frame, one of the toughest ever built.

unspellable · « **Reply #25 on:** January 05, 2005, 10:13:22 AM »

My Winchester 45 Colt cowboy loads went through my Ruger Old Army with R&D converter with no particularly noteworthy effects other than they threw a tighter group than the cap & ball cylinder. I think the cap and ball cylinder is a bit out of alignment.

As for replicas and frame strength, it's not always a question of blowing up the gun but rather battering it to death. You can run level II 45 Colt loads through a S&W without danger of blowing it up but it will soon shoot loose. This has a lot to do with the hardness of the metal. The S&W 44 Mag has a heat treated yoke to avoid shooting loose. I have the impression that most of the replicas are made of fairly soft steel. Compatring my Old Army to my Colt "replica"is like comparing a bank vault to a gym locker.

filmokentucky · « **Reply #26 on:** January 06, 2005, 05:01:22 AM »

I wonder what sort of heat treatment is given to the ROA. The Remington shows no sign of battering after years of use, but even full power BP loads would be mild compared to stiff smokeless loads, so no surprise there.

Flint · « **Reply #27 on:** January 06, 2005, 06:02:27 PM »

Don't know what heat treatment the ROA gets, but from the experience of reshaping and refinishing them, they are hard as granite....