Minimum "ETHICAL" calibre for roundball deer hunti

[ButlerFord45]

There are plans in the near future for my first semi-custom flint rifle.  It's primary use will be to play with.  Tree rats,  bunnies, whistle pigs, crow and occasional deer as an afterthought.  I have a couple of 50's and a 54 in percussion should the desire arise for the need of something bigger.
I had always considered 45's to be the minimum, 36's too small and 32's out of the question.  I've never been familiar with the 40's, in fact I wasn't even aware of them until recently.  The few comments I've heard was that they were adequate for deer and that the calibre is inherently accurate.
Is there substance to these claims, or is it just ramblings of the uninformed?
 :oops:  Then there is always the possibility that I could be way off base, too!  :oops:

[Birddog6]

Well, I ain't by no means an expert on anything, but to me in a small bore a .40 cal is the   .243 of Bp rifles. You can dog it down & it is accurate as anything you could want & bump it up & make it reall zip at 2000 fps & it is still accurate as can be.   Of course shot placement is critical on any small bore when hunting deer, but the .40 is adequate.  Problem is most guys are just plain lousy shots & they need all the help they can get, so a large bore is best for most.....  But in any case, as 40 cal will do it  IF you do your part.

  As for owning them I have owned ? 4-5  .40 cals. that I can think of right off hand & all shot under 1" groups at 100 yards off the bench.  As for a comparison I have owned 32, 36, 38, 40, 45, 50, 54, 58, 62 and have a 72 cal I hve not built yet. And I have owned several of each (except the .72)  not just one or so, thus having more than the usual occasional shot with any particular caliber.  My favorites for the small bore is the .40 & the favorite in the large bore is the .54 cal.   The .54 in a ML is the 30-06 of rifles as a comparison.   This is all just personal opinion but it is based on having owned ? 75 or so BP rifles in the past, so not an opinionated view from owning one or two calibers & hearsay on others...

Hope this helps....

[Longcruise]

I suppose it also has to do with how big the deer are in your neighborhood.

Never used anything smaller than a .50 for deer but would probably go to a .45.  A .40 seems small to me at only a 92 grain ball :shock:  OTOH I got no first hand exp with it so it's only conjecture on my part.

Since I have a .45, a .50 a couple .54's for larger game, I'm considering either a .36 or a .32 for my small game gun and am leaning toward the .32.  My finger is pretty much poised over the "buy now" button

[Birddog6]

If choosing between a .32 or the .36 I opt for the 36. For me a larger ball for me to handle is a lil thing, but the main thing is you can make a larger ramrod for it & having broken several .32 ramrods, it does make a difference.

Both are great calibers & really cheap to shoot also. Same way with the .38 or the.40 cal. Really cheap to shoot & you can figure about  2 & sometimes 3 shots = to 1 shot in a 50 or 54 or 58 cals.

As for the ol addage of less meat damage some will say with the .32, that is total B.S.  A head shot is a head shot & that is what ya shoot when ya hunt squirrels & any body shot the body is ruined be it a 32 , 36, or 40 so it doesn't matter.  I know one guy that consistantly head shoots squirrels with a downloaded 54 cal & he has no heads thus less to bury.... With a head shot it is a hit or a miss, simple as that.

[ButlerFord45]

Birddog6 (sounds like a Viet Nam callsign?),  I found your 243/'06 analogies very helpful, I'd always considered the 50 the '06 and the 54 more of the 338, but I will differ to your experience.  It definitely puts us on the same sheet of music.  I've always been intrigued by "inherently accurate" specially when it is repeated from sperate sources!  The 40 has intrigued me to the point that it is on the top of the list at the moment, but I'd like to learn more about it.
Nice work displayed on your website! (by the way, your link doesen't work as is)
Longcruise, I guess we have average deer big ones in the low to mid 200's, but I'm not a trophy hunter, my very favorite deer target is a button buck, absolutely delicious!

[wilded]

I have a custom .40 Ohio halfstock and it is by far my favorite muzzleloader out of many calibers I have had.  I have also had a 50,54,45,36 and a 32.  I love the small round balls for varmints and smaller.  I have taken many hill country whitetails and feral hogs up to 200 pounds with the 40.  My fun load is 40 grains of 3F but for deer and hogs I load 70 grains of 3F.  They drop on the spot with head shots and run about 50 to 80 yards with a double lung shot.  If you take safe shots and place your bullet the 40 is fine.  If you shoot em in the gut a 54 is to small. :eek:

[Good time Charlie]

You had best check your state game laws. Most states woun't let you use anything smaller than a .45 cal.
                                      Old Charlie

[ButlerFord45]

Charlie, it used to be that way here, but now:

"
Muzzle-loading equipment restrictions

Muzzle-loading rifles or handguns of any caliber are permitted. Muzzle-loading shotguns no larger than 10 gauge used with slugs only are permitted. A muzzle-loading firearm that can be fired more than once before reloading is permitted, as long as it meets the definition of a muzzle-loading firearm. In-line muzzle-loading rifles are permitted and using telescopic sights (scopes) on muzzleloaders is permitted.

[WD45]

I normally use a maxi ball That I hand cast for my 45 on deer. Always have pass thru shots. Use the RB's for small stuff.  If you are worried about the RB doing the job in 40 cal a maxi or real bullet will, no doubt.
One of the 2 will usually shoot good out of a RB barrel.
I haven't checked mold availability in a long time for these... I think at one time LEE made a 2 cavity mold with one RB and one REAL  bullet.
Dont know if it comes in 40 cal though other than plain ole RB.
Just food for thought....

[Birddog6]

Butlerford45:  I don't know why the site will not come on here. The address is correct & the site is working but when I try it on my profile it says File Not Found.  I can't even find a place to ask the board operator a question about it...
Anyway, I have several friends that shoot a .40 cal & they will tell ya also it is a fine caliber.  One is in NZ and he varmint hunts with his all the time & makes lots of long shot kills with his...
Also it is just large enough to knock over the sihoulette plates at a  ML match at the 100 yard shorts, where a 36 don't have quite enough umph at that distance.
Oh, Birddog6 was not a military call sign for me, but I have been asked that many times.  I used to raise & train birddogs & I took that email & name when I got a computer..

[ButlerFord45]

Birddog, when you use the radio buttons at the bottom of your signature block, this is the address given: http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/www.custommuzzleloaders.com
rather than www.custommuzzleloaders.com
Deer hunting is the bottom of the list of things I want to use this rifle for, but would be the biggest calibre needed, so if a 40 is adequate (close well placed shot after lots of practice), then that's one of the reasons for leaning toward this calibre.

[Birddog6]

ButlerFord45:  I copied & pasted your suggestion in my profile & it still won't bring up my web site.  I guess it goes to prove it it don't have a flint connected to it, I can't make it work ?  ha ha !   I don't know what I have wrong, probably one lil thing clicked in the wrong place.  Not a issue tho..   If someone wants me all they have to do is go to any search engine & put in Birddog6, CustomMuzzleloaders, CustomFlintlocks, or D.K. Lisle & they will easily find me.

Thanks

Keith

[crazy frenchman]

:grin: ButlerFord45, just wonder what is your mim.  cal. that is legal in your state.

[ButlerFord45]

Crazy, this is copied from the Dept. Fish and Wildlife in Kentucky:

"Muzzle-loading rifles or handguns of any caliber are permitted"

[Ramrod]

ButlerFord45, if you shoot the gun enough to be confidant of making your shot, it is hard to say what is too small. "Ethical", thats got to be your call. The .45 cal. is considered minimum by most "experts" for "average" conditions. Average hunters are better off with a .50 cal. If you want to shoot a deer with a .40 and have the ability, and the sense to pass up iffy shots, (and I'm sure you do, or you wouldn't have even asked), go for it.

[quickdtoo]

An old friend of mine who went under several years ago, hunted with a .40 cal flinter with round balls for more years than I can recall,  killed many deer with that rifle, god bless his soul.

[Winter Hawk]

I wish Alaska would change the regs to read like yours!  We have a .45 caliber, 250 grain minimum except that you can use .45 round ball on deer.  I have thought that the .45 would be the ticket, as it is not too large for bunnies but with a conical it will do for bigger critters.  Now you have me wondering about the .40, but of course that is out according to the regs.

-Winter Hawk-

[R J Talley]

I lived in Alaska for a while and went hunting with the local Indians quite a few times. More than a few used either a 22 Hornet or a 32-20 for taking moose and caribou. They got real close, well under 50 yards and always shot them in the head..no place else. Under those conditions even a 22 would work. I've killed more than a few deer, antelope, elk during the decade I lived in Montana. Some with a handgun (357 and 41 mag) some with a 30 Herrit and cast bullets but most were with an 06 using 150gran spitzers. I killed one black bear with a T/C Renegade (shot him 15 feet away while following him on my knees through choke cherries) and two deer with T/C hawkins in 50 cal. I used RBs in both cases.  The kills were always quick. I am not convinced that anything smaller than a 45 would be as lethal under most circumstances. If things are right and the shot is to the brain...up close, then 36-40 cal would do. Why mess with it though? My vote is that 45 is the min. and only then if one is real choosey about his shot placement.

[ButlerFord45]

Birddog6, Graybeard has repaird your link, it now works.


It seems that a lot of folks believe as I did, 45 calibre is the smallest for "ethical" deer hunting, but my extream distance shot would be 75 yards, 25-50 yards being the norm, not much over bow distance.  I let the larger deer pass, it's too hard to guess their age, and old deer just don't taste as good and eating it would be the only reason for shooting the deer.  So at a maximum distance of, oh, lets say 50 yards and a broadside shot, can I reasonably expect  a complete pass through shot of a 100 pound deer with a well charged 40 calibre round ball?  I guess that would have been a better way to have asked the question in the first place.

[R J Talley]

I would be willing to bet that the ball would pass through at that distance. Still, If I were using a .40 at that range, I would shoot for the neck just below the ears. Any hit in that area would be fatal, any thing less would be a clean miss. At 50 yards that target area would be the size of a grapefruit. That should be hitable by a practiced hand off hand and very doable from a rest.  I honestly don't have too much faith in the ability of a .40 ball to creat a big wound channel and it certainly won't be creating much shock. I'm speculating though based on my experience with 158 grn loads in my .357 mag. It just barely gets the job done and then, only with a good neck or heart shot. The one lung shot I took at 30 feet still permitted the deer to run almost a half mile before it piled up and died.

[Birddog6]

Thanks for fixing the link.  I was lost on what was wrong with it.

As for the .40 cal going thu a deer at 40-50 yards, you can bet you lil blue booties it will  IF  it don't hit any bone. And if it hits a rib it will flatten out like a penny a distroy his heart or lungs too, most likely go thru one side & be just under the hide on the opposite side.  

As said in the post above me, best shot is just off the skull in the neck & next best a heart shot. Don't try a base neck shot as there is too much meat & area there to guess which way his spine is curved at the time of the shot. At the head /neck area the spine will be the same all the time.

Let me see if I can get Jeffin NZ to post on this.  He just shot some mountain goats & I think he used his 40 cal. Isaac Haines to do it, or possibly a 40 cal Wesson.  He is a Avid  varmint hunter with a 40 cal & shoot hundreds of varmints a year with one.

[wilded]

The forty goes right through a ninety pound doe and is usually right under the skin on the far side of a hog unless you shoot at the base of the ear.

[Longcruise]

The thing to keep in mind with round balls is that the smaller the caliber, the higher the velocity. The higher the velocity the more the ball will flatten out.  the more the ball flattens out and the less it will penetrate.  Sooo.. you can reduce the velocity of the forty to get better penetration but will give up tissue damage.  It's sort of a rock and a hard place kinda thing.

To illustrate, one of our guys hit a 180 pound doe broadside in the chest cavity this year with a .54 round ball over 80 grains of goexff.  The ball did major damage to the lungs but still stopped on under the skin on the off side.  If this ball had been powered by 50 or 60 grains of powder it probably would have been a complete pass through.

When it comes to round balls, when it doubt use a bgger bore :-)

At the same time, when you are talking about 100 pound deer you are just over coyote size and like it's been said above the 40 is a great varmint caliber :grin:   All in all I'd say given your intended use the forty should suffice.

To quote the Nuge, "ethics are in the heart, not the hand".

[wilded]

If the need arises you can shoot a .40 caliber wadcutter bullet, maxi or other enlongated bullet for more knockdown.

[The Cast Bullet Kid]

Hi from New Zealand.
Birddog6 has asked me to look over this thread.
I have brace of .40cal RB rifles; one cap, one flint.
The largest game I have dropped with either was a very solid billy goat back in June.  I was hunting on a cold snowy day and was carrying my Isaac Haines flinter when the shot presented itself.  The billy stood broadside at an honest 100 yards on a rocky outcrop and I had a good rest for the forend and my friend backing me up with the SKS so took the shot.  The ball hit just behind the front leg, passed through the vitals and stopped on the off side in the upper shoulder.  Mr billy goat leaped from the rock into a thicket and that's where he stayed.  I was very happy with the performance of the .395 ball however the conditions were very good.
I have shot lots of rabbits, hares and wallabies with both also and for this size of game the calibre is great at ranges to 100 yards.
As Birddog6 points out also, the calibre is very economical to run.  At the Oct. rondy most of the shooting was inside 50 yards so I ran the flinter on 30gr of 3Fg Swiss all day and the Wesson caplock on 25gr.  Both produce 1400 odd fps and are deadly.
Re full loads I run 50gr in the flinter for 1850fps and generally 40gr in the caplock for the same however with 50gr in the Wesson she will break 2000fps though I need to cushion the patch as without protection it burns up.
Would I use either on deer?  Well, yes on fallow and Virginian whitetail (on Stewart Island here only), Sika and under the right conditions reds too.  Thing is it's about where you put the ball and I would restrict the shots to 50-60 yards I think.

[IntrepidWizard]

Kid,do you deat that "Big Rat" ?and do they have a season for them?

[filmokentucky]

Way back in the mists of time, when I was a lad first learning blackpowder lore, my mentor, then an active gentleman well into his seventies, sang the praises of the .38 caliber muzzleloader. This was long before the coming of sabots and maxi this and thats--he referred only to patched balls. It was his view that the .38 was the best gun for the person
who only had one rifle because it could take rabbits and squirrels without
destroying meat and yet could reliably take a white tail deer. He did stress good marksmanship and mentioned that the .38 was economical to shoot so that target practice could be carried out regularly, a suggestion that he followed himself. He was a fine shot and at his age could outshoot most anyone around.
   What all of this is in about is that the small bore .40 is probably a very effective deer gun in the right hands. I know I always say I like to make a big hole, but the truth is, if I only had a .40 and it was legal, I'd definitely use it. And I wouldn't aim any more carefully with it than I would with one of my big bores. A good shot is a good shot and ultimately picking your shot is the truly ethical thing.

[KING]

Looks like a lot of good advice from you gentleman.  I guess I will put my 2 cents in for a hoot.  My minimum for whitetail is a .54......yes I have larger but prefer that caliber as it has enough" oooomph" to dump plenty of energy into the animal if the shot placement is proper,I also like a .50.  Seeing that you are going to build one I think I also would go with either a .38 or a .40.  They are a great rifle for target and can also be loaded down for squirrels and rabbits and for general plinking.  I prefer a .32 for that but do have plans for a .38 this spring when I get my workshop completed at the farm.  I have plans for all kinds of stuff just gotta get it completed.  I would not recommend them for anything of a deer size animal having seen some results that I was not happy with using them.  stay safe............King

[filmokentucky]

I tend to think of the .54 as the .270 of muzzleloaders. Properly stoked, it is one flat shooter.  I would love to know the ballistics of a .54 ball at say 100 yards with 110 grains of ffg behind it.
   Speaking of building rifles and .38 caliber, has anyone had a look at the parts offered by Don Stith for a Hawken squirrel rifle? He does business as
St. Louis Plains Rifle Company. The one I'm referring to is the deluxe squirrel rifle. Anyway, it's worth a look.

[wilded]

I tend to think of the .54 as the .270 of muzzleloaders. Properly stoked, it is one flat shooter.  I would love to know the ballistics of a .54 ball at say 100 yards with 110 grains of ffg behind it.
   Speaking of building rifles and .38 caliber, has anyone had a look at the parts offered by Don Stith for a Hawken squirrel rifle? He does business as
St. Louis Plains Rifle Company. The one I'm referring to is the deluxe squirrel rifle. Anyway, it's worth a look.

Do you know if he has a web site?