Author Topic: IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30  (Read 3949 times)

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Offline marv

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6 point
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2004, 05:30:15 PM »
Way to go R.V. congrats, Back strap bisquist and gravey for breakfast.
 
 Can not get any better, Keep us posted on the 30-30 load devolment.
 
 Is Amy getting to come home for  the Holidays and do any hunting?
 Marv.

Offline lik2hunt

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2004, 02:17:19 AM »
So the 4350 is not a good match for the SST's.......too bad. The Sierras are cheaper to buy but the 2130's, but lack the BT design. It seems obvious now that I have looked at both bullets side by side that the SST is longer. I wonder how the Sierra 2125 Game King would do? May be the best of both worlds...... a BT designed spitzer bullet over the slower 4350 powder. What do ya think? I bet them SST's would be great in my Vanguard tho.
lik2hunt------>in OK





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Offline lik2hunt

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2004, 02:27:45 AM »
Oh yea, nice going on that buck too. Good to know somebody is scoring some freezer fill. I haven't seen a buck since opening morning. Season is ending here today and right now it's raining so I may not get a rifle-shot deer this year :cry: . Must feel good to know that you loaded the round that scored the meat tho, I hope to experience that feeling next year on a deer and hopefully before that on big ole hog.
Looks like the 2130 Sierra and the 4350 is a fine combo for the 30-30 Handi tho. That's two sub-MOA groups now with that load isn't it? Nice going there guy! Saved a liitle trial and error on this end for me. If the bullet will open up any at all then it should be a good whitetail killer I think. Got a chrony?
lik2hunt------>in OK





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Offline mag41vance

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2004, 04:23:27 AM »
Quote from: lik2hunt
Got a chrony?






 No, Santa mightbring me one!
no x now!

Offline lik2hunt

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2004, 04:40:18 AM »
Quote
No, Santa might bring me one!


I hope he does then. Around my house I think about shooting him sometimes instead of the deer. Have 5 kids and 18 grandkids. Santa hardly has anything left by the time he gets around to me.
lik2hunt------>in OK





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Offline Longcruise

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2004, 05:54:26 AM »
Quote
a BT designed spitzer bullet over the slower 4350 powder.


Why the BT design?  Seems like it eliminates a lot of good bullets and gives very little advantage at 30-30 ranges and velocities

Offline lik2hunt

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2004, 06:45:33 AM »
Quote
Why the BT design?


A reference comparison to the SST's.
lik2hunt------>in OK





“The thing that separates the American Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather die on his feet, than live on his knees!"
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Offline andrewtheelder38

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30-30 accuracy
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2004, 02:23:22 PM »
The Speer and Lyman reloading manuals both say that the 30-30 is an inherently accurate round (especially out of the old savage bolt actions) and if you do a google search there is an article on the 'net called 100-years and still going strong in which they test the 30-30 in a ton of rifles and loads and the Winchester 30-30 (2) 150-grain factory ammo shot a .9-inch group at 100-yards out of their test handi rifle....pretty darned good rifle for 187 bucks at walmart I'd say......

Offline quickdtoo

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2004, 02:50:06 PM »
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Badnews Bob

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2004, 03:11:14 PM »
I work for Bad Santa and his Black elves, they deliver high speed gifts to the bad guys around the would.... mostly .30cal and up.... :twisted:  :roll:
Badnews Bob
AE-2 USN retired

Offline Fred M

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2004, 03:53:26 PM »
Longcruise.


Quote
Why the BT design? Seems like it eliminates a lot of good bullets and gives very little advantage at 30-30 ranges and velocities


You are absolutely right. No advantage at any decent hunting range.

Perhaps I am sticking my neck out with this. But a boat tail for hunting bullets is a total waste. If the SST was made with a flat base it would be a lot better bullet. I tink the SST makes good sence in a 30-30 because it is very fragile and it will open up at the 30-30 velocities, I think? But the present design is not very accurate.  The center of gravity is cock eyed by that long BT and the plastic tip.

Why the allure to BT's god knows, must have something to do with sex appeal, but that can't be bcause the shape is all wrong.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline mag41vance

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2004, 03:32:48 AM »
Quote from: Fred M
Longcruise.


Quote
Why the BT design? Seems like it eliminates a lot of good bullets and gives very little advantage at 30-30 ranges and velocities


You are absolutely right. No advantage at any decent hunting range.

Perhaps I am sticking my neck out with this. But a boat tail for hunting bullets is a total waste. If the SST was made with a flat base it would be a lot better bullet. I tink the SST makes good sence in a 30-30 because it is very fragile and it will open up at the 30-30 velocities, I think? But the present design is not very accurate.  The center of gravity is cock eyed by that long BT and the plastic tip.

Why the allure to BT's god knows, must have something to do with sex appeal, but that can't be bcause the shape is all wrong.


  I agree. The BT does not do anything for my .30-30 loads. The 150gr Flat base Sierra spitzers are extremely accurate, but the bullet is designed to perform best at speeds about 400fps faster than the .30-30 can deliver. I would really like to see a Plastic tip Flat base bullet to try in the .30-30 case.
 At any rate, I am going to try the Sierra bullet loaded to the max with my .30-30 Handi and see what happens.
no x now!

Offline Fred M

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2004, 05:15:45 AM »
Mag 41Vanc

Vance.
I would be very tempted to try these bullets in a 30-30. Get five guys together and buy a box. 20 for each guy should be be enough to try them.

Berger makes some of the best bullets available.

.308 CAL 135 GRAIN MEF ID: 30-135 MEFCategory: Bullets   
Maximum Expansion Factor Recommended twist rate is 1/16 Ballistic Coefficient is 0.326 Flat base

http://www.bergerbullets.com/catalog.htm
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Longcruise

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2004, 09:41:08 AM »
Quote
I agree. The BT does not do anything for my .30-30 loads. The 150gr Flat base Sierra spitzers are extremely accurate, but the bullet is designed to perform best at speeds about 400fps faster than the .30-30 can deliver. I would really like to see a Plastic tip Flat base bullet to try in the .30-30 case


I see.  BTW, I was not faulting your BT choice, just wondered why you selected it.  Boat tail is never a criteria for any of my bullet selections and sometimes I select against it in order to get more bullet contact in the case neck especially in a long threoated handi.  OTOH, if a BT suits the purpose and shoots ok I'll use it but not because it is a BT.

I think it was previously mentioned in this thread but just to restate, the Nosler Partition might be an excellent choice.  While it's designed for deep penetration, the front half is designed to open up readily.  The Nosler people could probably annswer that for you via their board.  I'm tempted to simply say shoot it and count on it and fully expect that the nosler would open up on down to 1700 or 1800 fps, but OTOH it would be better if the answer came form Nosler. :-)

Offline marv

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IMR 4350 in de ol' 30-30
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2004, 10:14:11 AM »
R.V.  Just loaded up some of your ( sort of ) useing 150 grain Speer rn bullets  I just used 35 grains of 4350 shot about best I could measure,
 .4 in 3 shot group Better than any load or any rifle in 30-30.
 Just goes every body can be wrong sometimes  :)  :)  :)
 I always Thought IMR 3031 & 4895 was the powder for 30-30.
 Will have do more tinkering, and some sierra bullets. Thank for the info
 Marv.

Offline Longcruise

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2004, 01:04:00 PM »
Quote
Just loaded up some of your ( sort of ) useing 150 grain Speer rn bullets I just used 35 grains of 4350 shot about best I could measure,
.4 in 3 shot group Better than any load or any rifle in 30-30.


Marv, any chance of any chrono info on that load?

My nef 30-30 with 165 grin bullets has always given up a bit more velocity thant the manual indicates when using 4895.  Be nice if those 4350 loads were hitting big game velocities :grin:

Offline JPH45

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2004, 01:04:52 PM »
Here I go playing devils advocate again....

As to the use of a Boat Tail design in a 30-30, I believe that one will find a useful increase in retained energy at 200 yards as compared to other designs, especially when the BC of the bullet is ABOVE .400. A 10% gain is a 10% gain.

Currently I drive the Hornady 150 SST at 2360 fps, but I am sure it is quite possible to get above 2400 in the Handi.  At 2360, the trajectory of the SST is 2" high at 100, 2" low at 200. This is a point blank range of 200 yards staying inside a 4" circle, increase that to a 6" circle, and our point blank range approaches 250 yards. This takes our 30-30 out of the realm of woods rifle, and takes us into soybean fields and clearcuts. The Nolser 180 Partition at 2245 fps gives a 175 yard point blank range shooting into a 4" circle. (As a side note 1800 fps is the low end working velocity of the Nosler)

While perhaps not discussed often, point blank range is everything in a hunting rifle. While it may be obvious, the greater distance one can shoot and not begin to make sighting corrections for trajectory, the greater confidence a shooter will have in theri rifle and thier ability to hit at extended ranges. It also allows us to enter a variety of hunting conditions without thought of our preparedness for changes in terrain or cover.

Most factory 30-30 loads begin to fall out at 150 yards. Estimating a 6" to 8" hold over for a bullet that is beginning to enter its low extreme velocity performance window only adds to the questions in a shooters mind as they try to size up that once in a life time buck that just entered the field 220 yards away as daylight fades and it is quartering toward............

How many advantages do you want in your chamber?
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Offline Fred M

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2004, 03:30:01 PM »
JPH45

I am not too sure it fair to compare a 150gr SST with a 180 partition.

If you fired a 150gr SST BT  and a 150gr Nosler Partition FB side by side with the same MV you would find them to arrive at 200yards very close to each other with nearly the same velocity. Within 40 ft vel and a 1/4" drop

At least that is what the my ballistic program tells me. I am all for the SST in a 30-30 because the they are more frangible than a Partition and they will give good  velocities because of the good BC. But at 200 yrds this issue is negligible when two bullets of the same weight are used that is BT and FB.

On the other hand even the 180 gr starts 100 plus ft slower it will have more energy at 250 yrds.  nearly 150 ft/bs. Yes it shoots lower but if you  were to use this bullet you can up it a bit  at 100 and still stay in a 6-7" point blank range out to 250. of course expansion is anther story with that bullet in a 30-30.

The SST I tried in two rifles where not anywhere near as accurate as other pointed bullets the Nosler included. Again not enough to worry about.

Though they sure put down a deer, one SST nearly decapitated a good sized buck, also with more velocity than a 30-30 would produce. So this is not a goood comparison either but they do work well.

Haven't heard from you for a long time, where have you hiding?
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline JPH45

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2004, 04:10:21 PM »
Fred M. Just been hanging out, haven't had much to say till recent. Went through one of those weird slumps were I wasn't doing any shooting and I didn't seem to have any desire to, so I just did other stuff. Then deer season came on and WHAM I was hit with the bug again. So I've been doing some loading and experimenting. I shot a doe with one of those  Nosler 180 P's. Spined her, looked like hell inside.  2 full inches of her backbone was gone. Interesting in that the bullet wound displayed that "eat up to the hole" kind of channel, but where the spine was was obliterated.

So....... I decided to change directions for a bit and cast up some pure lead versions of Lee's 405 HP's for my 45-70 and I'm pushin' em at a very mild 1175 fps. I'm gonna carry that while I meditate on the 30-30 for a while. I've got some 165 grain Grand Slams but I suspect they are a bit hard for this work, and of course Speer says "We don't recommend the use of any but bullets we make for the 30-30, blah blah blah". So I've got to rephrase my question to them, but I still thik the bullet to hard. I've shot it from a 30-06 on deer at 2700 fps and it performed well but didn't make a mess.

JD Jones recommends the Nosler 150 Ballistic Tip in the 309 JDJ. This cartridge is a 30-30 rifle from a 14 Contender. He claims the combo is good to 300 yards on 400 pound game. Interesting.

I did find the Nosler to be a better shooting bullet thatn the SST, but is has a long bearing surface. Makes me want to try the Speer Hot-Cor's out. This is a bonded core bullet (as the name implies) but is sold as a non premium bullet.

More to come. JP
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Offline Longcruise

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2004, 05:16:48 PM »
Quote
I decided to change directions for a bit and cast up some pure lead versions of Lee's 405 HP's for my 45-70 and I'm pushin' em at a very mild 1175 fps


Halleluya....  You have seen the light!!! :)

Quote
JD Jones recommends the Nosler 150 Ballistic Tip in the 309 JDJ.


I.ve been thinking for a while that the existence of the Nos BT might finally be justified by shooting in the Handi 30-30.

Quote
The SST I tried in two rifles where not anywhere near as accurate as other pointed bullets


My impression of the accuracy of the 165 SST in the NEF was similar.  My 150 cast bullet loads gave equal if not better accuracy.  Several years ago a friend loaded up the 150 SST's for his '06 for a hog hunt.  We sighted in together and his custom o3-a3 which is normally a very accurate rifle did only about 2 moa with the SST.

Quote
I shot a doe with one of those Nosler 180 P's.


Did you chrono those loads?  And, what was the range on that kill?  I'm interesed in any and all reports of the partition performance in 30-30 especially the heavier weight bullets!

Offline Fred M

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2004, 05:20:42 PM »
JPH45.

Why would you not want to use a RN bullet designed for the 30-30?
You are not restricted to old time loads at 36000cup. I would seat a 170gr bullet only 1/8 into the neck and fill the extra space with up with Varget about 35.0gr should do a good job out to 200 yrds. Perhaps 2300 ft/sec.

With a loose bore you will never make it.

Sierra 170gr Flat nose 2300 ft MV  2" high at 100.  3.4" low at 200.  1027 ft/bs at 200 is a bit skimpy but it will take a deer.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline marv

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Round nose Bullets
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2004, 05:50:25 PM »
The reason I used RN bullets today was all I had in 150 grain wt.

 just some I had from when I was loading for a 94 winchester..

 Going to get some pointed one soon to try, I didn't get my chrono

 Will next time I shoot, I am guessing at them today at 20 to 2100.

 Just a wild guess, going fast enoough to knock doe or hog to the ground.

 Marv.

Offline JPH45

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2004, 05:50:51 PM »
Actually, the chamber of my Handi is dead spec for a 30-30 chamber. Seating an SST to the cannalure allows me to close the action without undue force. Seat the bullet out1/16th (.0625) and the bullet crashes in the landings, won't close. Same with the Nosler. I have to seat it right at the juncture of the shank diameter/ogive origin to close the action. Base of the bullet is just above the shoulder. Similar things happen with the Sierra 150 Game King. NEF has some strange machining practices when it comes to chambers. My 44 is a dead ringer of a Ruger cylkinder bore, my 45-70 is  perfect Gov't Ball chamber (short, mimmicks the original Springfield Trapdoor chamber) and my 30-30 is dead on SAAMI spec. It took rechambering my 357 Magnum to a Maximum chamber to get anywhere close to the rifling, I hear the 25-06 has this problem as do 223's from time to time. I wonder about the chamber throats of the 308 and 30-06.

I continue to at present to steer clear of  the AI, mainly because if I decide to sell or trade this rifle it is worth more with the original chamber than with the AI. Besides, the 30-30 is more thqn capable at the short and modest ranges I use it at.
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Offline Fred M

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2004, 06:58:53 PM »
JPH45
With every body griping about free bore and throats, I thought that was standard practis on all Handi's. I is refreshing to hear that H$R actually cut some chambers and throats to specs.

You are right about the AI's, though I love them, but you are lucky to get 25 cents on a dollar when you try to sell them. I had to rechamber a 280AI to 7mmRem Mag before I could get a sale.

Yes the 30-30 is ok for what it was ment to do.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline mag41vance

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Re: IMR 4350 in de ol' 30-30
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2004, 01:33:38 AM »
Quote from: marv
R.V.  Just loaded up some of your ( sort of ) useing 150 grain Speer rn bullets  I just used 35 grains of 4350 shot about best I could measure,
 .4 in 3 shot group Better than any load or any rifle in 30-30.
 Just goes every body can be wrong sometimes  :)  :)  :)
 I always Thought IMR 3031 & 4895 was the powder for 30-30.
 Will have do more tinkering, and some sierra bullets. Thank for the info
 Marv.


  Hey Marv,

 Way to go!! I'm glad that load worked for you! If you get a chance to chrony the load let us no what you got, and if by chance you get to use it on a animule,,,, give us a detailed report.
no x now!

Offline marv

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30-30 Load
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2004, 02:03:49 AM »
Hello Vance, I will shoot over a chorny as soon as I can.
 Also I am going to get a box of Sierra # 2130.
 I have like Sierra bullets better than any others I have used.
 Thanks for your Help. :D  Marv.

Offline mag41vance

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2004, 02:54:06 AM »
Quote from: Fred M
Mag 41Vanc

Vance.
I would be very tempted to try these bullets in a 30-30. Get five guys together and buy a box. 20 for each guy should be be enough to try them.

Berger makes some of the best bullets available.

.308 CAL 135 GRAIN MEF ID: 30-135 MEFCategory: Bullets   
Maximum Expansion Factor Recommended twist rate is 1/16 Ballistic Coefficient is 0.326 Flat base

http://www.bergerbullets.com/catalog.htm


 I was noticing that Berger recomends specific bullets to rifling twist rates. I wonder  what the twist rates for the .30-30 handi's? My .30-30 barrel is 12 years old.
no x now!

Offline marv

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30-30 twist
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2004, 03:52:04 AM »
Vance, The twist of NEF 30-30 is supposed to be 1/ in10.
 I have a a 308 winchester that a 1 in 12, It will not shoot150 grain
 worth tinker D---. 1/4 in group 125 gr. Sierra's Marv.

Offline Fred M

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2004, 06:40:46 AM »
Marv and Vance.

Walt Berger is a bullet expert and a BR competitor. He recommends the best twist for his bullets. I have a 30BR custom barrel that has a twist of
1-15" and many have 1-17" and 1-18" twists for the same bullet weights.
I shoot 125 and 135gr bullets in that rifle 125 at 2980 and the 135 about 2800.

A 1-12 twist in a 30-30 should stabilize a 150gr bulllet with good accuray. If  150 gr bullets don't shoot in a 30-30 it won't have anything to do with the twist. I never shoot the 150gr bullets in my 30BR but I am sure they would work well. Only the Barnes-x bullets do need more twist than a regular bullet because of its lesser density but not a whole lot.

A have no trouble shooting the very long 100gr TSX barnes in the 25-06 along with all other bullets in the 1-10" twist. Regular 100 gr shoot well in 1-12 and 1-13" in the the 25 Hunter.

Many people will blame the twist when a certain bullet does not group.
The factory barrels have mostly more twist than needed for best performance with certain bullets. Like 1-10 twist in most 30 calibers is way too much, and pin point accuracy can not be had with an overstabilized bullet.

If your 30-30 has a 1-12" twist 150 to 180 bullets should do well. If not don't blame the twist.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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IMR 4350 tested good in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2004, 07:05:05 AM »
FWIW, the barrel twist rate for the .308 and the .30-30 are both 1-10" according to the FAQ as posted by Duce.
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain