Author Topic: Determining your max humane range (Read 946 times)

AndyHass · « **on:** December 01, 2004, 07:09:22 AM »

I thought a discussion about choosing your personal max range on game might be a useful addition to the forum, especially considering the relatively large number of new shooters who seem to be joining the forum. Some people may be ethical hunters up to 300 or more yards, while others should limit themselves to 70. Honestly assessing which group you are in should be an important decision as hunting season approaches.
I think it is important to decide BEFORE you go into the field, the max range at which you would consider a shot under both ideal conditions and conditions that day. I don't feel making such decisions in the rushed and adrenaline-filled moment a deer is sighted is a good idea.
Factors I believe should be considered:
1) Overall marksmanship of the shooter
2) Familiarization with firearm/load chracteristics
3) Availability of accurate ranging information
4) Ballistics/downrange energy of bullet/load/gun combination used
5) Position (prone, offhand, bipod, kneeling, sitting, etc)
6) Sight type
I invite discussion of the above list and any other factors I might have overlooked.

daddywpb · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2004, 12:10:22 PM »

My personal limits are as follows:

archery - 30 yards
handgun - 50 yards
muzzle loader or centerfire rifle - 100 yards

I can do pretty well off a bench at 150 or even 200, but not well enough to take a shot at an animal from a field shooting position. When I go to the local range to practice, I shoot sitting on the ground off of Stoney Point sticks.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2004, 12:48:14 PM »

Quote from: AndyHass

I thought a discussion about choosing your personal max range on game might be a useful addition to the forum, especially considering the relatively large number of new shooters who seem to be joining the forum. Some people may be ethical hunters up to 300 or more yards, while others should limit themselves to 70. Honestly assessing which group you are in should be an important decision as hunting season approaches.
I think it is important to decide BEFORE you go into the field, the max range at which you would consider a shot under both ideal conditions and conditions that day. I don't feel making such decisions in the rushed and adrenaline-filled moment a deer is sighted is a good idea.
Factors I believe should be considered:
1) Overall marksmanship of the shooter
2) Familiarization with firearm/load chracteristics
3) Availability of accurate ranging information
4) Ballistics/downrange energy of bullet/load/gun combination used
5) Position (prone, offhand, bipod, kneeling, sitting, etc)
6) Sight type
I invite discussion of the above list and any other factors I might have overlooked.

All of those are important. Of those #3 is most important. Without knowing your range exactly even everything else won't get you anywhere. A 30 yd misestimation can be the difference between a good hit and a crippled deer.

All my hunting tools have a different max range. Some are load limitations, some sight limitations, and one is a shooter limitation. I'd need a lot more practice before I could extend it's range.

Bow - 25 yds
Extreme/scope - 150 yds
Extreme/open sights - 75 yds
Omega - 200 yds
GPR - 75 yds

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 01, 2004, 01:46:36 PM »

I use different ranges according to what I am shooting. The ranges I use, I practice a lot. I shoot all year, not just during hunting season. I consider myself a very good marksman and I am very confident in my abilities.

Bow, 35 yards
Shotgun rifled barrel, 125 yards
Muzzleloader, 125 yards
Center fire 45-70 or 444 Marlin, 125 yards
Center fire 22-250, 300 yards
Center fire 300Win Mag, 300 yards.
Center fire 30-06 , 250 yards.
Handguns (Revolver), 60 yards
T/C handguns, 100 yards

AndyHass · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2004, 02:43:58 AM »

I have suffered from a lack of shooting time the past few years since I can only shoot a bow where I live now (plus other increasing committments). This has had more effect on my comfortable range than anything else.
Bow- 30 yards (used to be 50 "in the day")
open sight ML/shotgun - 125 yards
scoped Omega- variable to 400 depending upon conditions and setup.
This year I spent the most time by far on the Omega. While I am not as good shooting from less stable positions as I used to be, the gun has a Harris bipod attached. With a coat/hunting cushion tucked under the rear of the stock, it is as good as a benchrest. It is the only weapon I hunt with that has enough power to harvest cleanly at extended range too. I spent a lot of time dialing in the trajectory and wind drift over the summer, and carry a laser rangefinder which is mandatory if it looks over 150 yards. I made one "long shot" with it this season and the practice paid off.
I think the laser rangefinder is one of the biggest advances in hunting technology in terms of preventing wounded and lost game.

jeff223 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2004, 12:00:33 PM »

Andy,am i reading this right?you are taking 400 yard shots with your muzzle loader at game?if in fact i am reading this right i want to tell you that your post stating this is the biggest "CROCK OF BULL" i have read here so far.if in fact you are doing this i am glad we dont know each other in person.

remember there are people that come here that are new to muzzle loading and i think they should be directed in the right direction.don't you think so too?

DEPUTY · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2004, 01:20:34 PM »

I guess jeff has never seen the facts of history that showed how musket snipers were used during the freeing of this country and during the civil was do some homework first jeff really it is possible to shoot that far. but hey andy is a big boy! you should see quest outdoors were one of there shooter took a mature mulie at 300yds! with an omega, or away outdoors were greg took a huge zebra at 275.

jeff223 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2004, 02:55:18 PM »

DEPUTY,i am fully aware of the history of black powder rifles.as far as what snipers can do at the time of war is one thing but this is not war.Andys topic is "Deteriming your max humane range".he states 400yd shots at game with a muzz loader and i say its BS.

this is his parade and he can continue with it if he wants.i said my piece and i know BS when i read it or see it and so do you

VTDW · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2004, 03:38:39 PM »

I believe the question was HUMANE RANGE.

Dave

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2004, 04:38:55 PM »

I read this and think 400 yards is not a HUMANE RANGE. 98% of the people that shoot muzzleloader know that your energy from a bullet at 400 yards is hardly enough to make a Humane kill. DEPUTY We all know the hype of the long distance shooting of a select few, but it should not be used in hunting situations with a muzzleloader. Great for punching holes in paper but lets get real here. :roll:

LMM · « **Reply #10 on:** December 03, 2004, 12:26:20 AM »

Anybody that knows anything knows a muzzleloader is no good for game past 399yds. :wink:

Seriously...... for me

on game

Revolver open sights 75yds
Muzzleloader open sights 100yds
Muzzleloader scoped 150yds
Rifle open sights 100yds
Rifle scoped 200yds

non game

No limit!!!!

DEPUTY · « **Reply #11 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:34:22 AM »

Well, my gun still holds almost 991fpe at 400yds i would guess andy is getting about 600fpe at that range!
my 500yds is 775fpe
myself my longest to date on game a has been a deer at 375yds with my gun and it was drt!(dead right there) dropped in its tracks from a good ground blind with a nice rest, in the field i use shooting sticks for 300yds
a former poster here omega i belive it was his wife who shot a large muile at 308yds with an omega and had the same results using 150 grains of pyro and a 200sst (drt)

so why cant a smokepole kill at these ranges. it can be done and they can work it takes practice and a good rest and lots of practice time and money laser rangfinders and the knoweldge of windreading and bullet drift. it can be done and will but hey i still shoot a renegade in 54 cal for fun and hunting too when in the swamps

jeff223 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:56:06 AM »

i heard Moe & Larry were out hunting again but where did Shemp go? :lol:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #13 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:11:05 AM »

Now that wasnt a personal attack was it jeff?

there are those that can and those that wish they could~

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:23:38 AM »

Let keep this as friendly as possible, even if some of us disagree, no need to start a flame war.

Thanks :grin:

jeff223 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 03, 2004, 06:14:27 AM »

no personal attacks from me towards anyone here at Graybeards.its just some added humor to go along with the humor of this topic :lol:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2004, 07:43:10 AM »

Spoken like a true idiot.

jeff223 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2004, 12:00:50 PM »

im sorry DEPUTY i should never of responded the way i did here about this 400 yard thing.i know when i come and visit the differant forums there are those that spread the crap a little thick and there are those that are on the up and up.the only forums i visit are shooting and reloading forums and when i am there on these differant forums it doesnt take long to pickout the (Real World) shooters and the (Dream World)shooters.it doesnt matter to me one way or the other who is who.i know this going in when i visit these places.i guess when i responded to this i didnt use my best judgement.i should of just passed it by or i should of responded in a differant way alltogether

maybe something like this,

WOW :eek: you can shoot and kill a deer out at 400 yards with a muzzle loader and make HUMANE KILLS :eek: WOW you sure are a true marksman in my book and you must have spent endless hours shooting and have spent many dollars in ammo to get to where you are at today.man i am impressed to say the least.i bet you are a sight to behold with your range finder in hand and that Harris Bi pod on that muzzle loader WOW.be sure to come back as soon as you can and let us all know if you get one out 500 yards :wink:

i think this is a better suited responce on my part.im going to clean up my act from now on and you can bet on that :wink:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:35:23 PM »

No jeff no bi-pod jsut stoney point shooting sticks i know what i know sir, i have spent countless hours on the range and on the computer to do what i do! i have shot a lot of powder this year to get my charts and windage down pat, even to the point of having premier reticles building me a custom reticle for my guns with windage hashes as well. i would be more than willing to let you try the gun since we are both in michigan as well as andy even though we have never met! and shoot my guns! out to these ranges and over the graph if you so like you base your snide remarks on things you know not of! the longest recored kill of the company ultimate firearms is on a mature elk at 460yds! on film myself no not 500yds not until i spend a summer shooting that distance which i will this year and maybe not even then some of the areas i hunt i cant shoot that far! about 425 is max for me in some area's humm i recall a old pistol shooter that made some claims like that too i belive it were 200yd and 300yd kills with his 44mag oh yeah his name was elmer keith! i have seen it and done it with this gun so far and if the condtions are not right i wont take the shot period now at least your a sarcastic iin a polite manor

jeff223 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:23:25 PM »

DUPUTY,(THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THIS TOPIC) and as you can see i stated the way i feel about this 400 yard thing with a muzz loader.my first reply was a reply to Andy and not to you.you gave me your 2 cents worth and im going to take it at what its worth, a total value of 2 cents :wink: i have no desire of ever trying one of your guns and i sure hope our paths never cross. :-)

so im going to say good bye to you for now fellow Graybeards member.

have a good night :wink:

DEPUTY · « **Reply #20 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:48:14 PM »

Me Too!

AndyHass · « **Reply #21 on:** December 04, 2004, 10:29:03 AM »

Jeff,
#1, I never said I had shot a deer at 400 yards. You need to read more carefully.
#2, the whole point of this thread was to illustrate the factors that go into YOUR maximum humane range. This differs by person. I don't think the average hunter in the woods has any business shooting 100 yards, as they likely put 10 rounds or less through their gun all year.
Your attacks on me were completely unwarranted. You have absolutely no idea as to my capabilities and practice habits. Your attacks on Deputy were equally unwarranted. If you knew the kind of gun he was shooting before you blew up, you would know what he told you...that he still has 900+ fpe at 400 yards. You should be yelling at roundball shooters hitting deer at 75 yards before you are yelling at him, as he has more energy at 400 than they do at 75.
If you notice, I did not list exactly how far my longest kill has been. This was precisely not to encourage newbies from trying such things, so again your attack on me was unwarranted.
My load retains 600+ fpe at 400 yards. I shoot 6 inch groups at 400 yards under varying wind conditions. Exactly how would shooting at a deer at 400 yards be unethical for me, if I were set up under the same conditions that allowed me to shoot 6 inch groups on the range and had a stationary, calm deer??? DISTANCE IN AND OF ITSELF DOES NOT DICTATE THE HUMANE/NONHUMANE NATURE OF THE SHOT.
It is typical that people blow up about long range shots without knowing what they are talking about. Go hang out at www.longrangehunting.com for awhile. These guys shoot deer out to 1100 yards with rifles. THey get flack all the time, but if you really understand the preparation they put behind these shots you would see they are more ethical than the average fire-two-shots-before-the-season hunter.
I was attempting to start a meaningful and important discussion that every hunter should think about before going into the field. I shared my personal experience, and I really think you owe me an apology for the flame.
I've owned my Omega for 9 months, and since getting it have bedded the action and installed aluminum pillars to tighten the groups by half. I've put more than 500 rounds through the gun in that time.
How many rounds did it take for you to prepare YOUR gun this year?