Hornady 60 gr V-Max .224"

[Paul5388]

NEF has chosen to put a 1 in 12" twist on their .223's.  That's normally too slow to stabilize anything over 55 gr.  I knew Sierra has a 63 gr they advertise as being stabilized in a 1 in 12", but this is the first I had heard about the Hornady bullet.  Midway says this about the Hornady #22281

Sectional Density: .171
Ballistic Coefficient: .264

Notes:
# For use with a 1 in 7" to 1 in 12" twist rate

Just thought I would pass that along for anyone else wanting to use heavier bullets in these slow twist barrels.

[Donaldo]

I don't think it is the 1/12 twist on the handi barrels as much as it is the "micro groove" rifling.  I am beginning to think this "micro groove" excrement is a bunch of ...oh I already said that didn't I.  I just don't think it grabs the bullet quick enough to get it spinning as fast as it needs to.  FredM and I talked a bit about this.  Plus what we tend to think is an oversize bore.  Although I must admit, I have not slugged my 223 bore to see what it actually is.  Berger Bullets says a 1/12 should stabilize up to about 63-64 grains in 224 dia.  Course this depends on twist and velocity to get the rpm you need to stabilize.

[Paul5388]

Donaldo,

It actually depends on the shape of the bullet.  A long bearing surface needs more twist, so they just make the bullets heavier with the same length as a lighter bullet.  Easily done by modifying the nose of the bullet.  That's why a heavier round nose will stabilize, sometimes, where a pointed bullet of the same weight won't.

I think Hornady has shifted some of the bearing surface from the nose to rear by doing away with the boat tail on the V-Max.

[thecowboyace]

Also these need to be pushed almost to the limits on velocity.  Be certain to check for damage to cartridges.

[Fred M]

Paul5388.
Sorry but you got it wrong a longer bullet of the same weight such as the VLD needs more twist because it has less bearing. not more. VLD means very low drag or short bearing.

A bullet with a longer bearing like a round nose is shorter than a long pointed one of the same weight and caliber. It is true that a longer bullets as a rule will need more twist like the TSX Barnes being made from solid copper has only 2/3 the density of a regular bullet hence it is much longer in comparable weights. But usually FB bullets of 60gr-62gr will stabilize in a 1-12" twist.

The secant ogive of the Hornady bullet is an ingenious concept by providing stability in a lesser twist with more bullet weight and better ballistic performance.

But an over size bore and a .002" micro groove will damage a bullet by not engaging the bullet properly and by initial skipping. That is why proper bore sizes are important to accuracy and bullet stability.

[thecowboyace]

One also needs to watch when using 'Moly' on their bullets.  If one, now this is the way I understood it, only puts Moly on the bullet, one needs to back off of the powder because it has more drag than just the same bullet without the Moly.  If you Moly the bullet, you need to Moly your bore.  This is not true though if you purchase bullets that have had the Moly applied while the bullet is being made.  If I am wrong on this please leat me know.  And where it was that you got your info.
TCGB

[handirifle]

cowboy
I thought I'd read it the other way around.  Never used moly, but what I read said that moly reduces friction, and in some cases velocity, because the bullet moves down the barrel easier, not allowing the powder to build the pressure it would with a non-moly bullet.

Of course, to my thinking, if you use moly bullets, you might be better off with a faster burning powderm spiking the pressure quicker.  Fred seems to have a lot of experience with moly, so maybe he knows for sure.

[Paul5388]

Fred,

Whichever, but the fact still remains that it is the shape of the bullet that determines the need for a particular twist rate, not necessarily the weight.

I don't know that I can buy the micro groove barrel argument either.  The same goes for the oversized bore argument.  If a particular brand of bullets give acceptable accuracy with a standard diameter, like .224" Win white box, the previous two arguments are negated.

I have two micro grooves (.45/70 and .357 Mag) that are shooting lead at about 1" at 100 yards, which seems to disprove the micro groove argument also.

Of course, since I bought a box of the Hornady's, I can check and see if they provide acceptable accuracy or if they are going to key hole like some bullets I have loaded.

[Fred M]

Paul.

Whichever, but the fact still remains that it is the shape of the bullet that determines the need for a particular twist rate, not necessarily the weight.

We are more ore less talking about the same thing. There are several factors that determine stability for a given bullet. 1. Weight, 2. length 3.Velocity. 4. Center of gravity. 5. Center of pressure. Of course these five items will make up any shape. You can take any bullet and invert it and it wont change stability when all the above are taken into consideration.

The further the CG and the CP are apart the more rotational velocity(twist) is required, meaning a longer bullet. The shape is not addressed in the formula. The old Greenhill formula does not address,  with its 150 constant,  3, 4, 5, and over-stabilizes a bullet by 1.7. better results are achieved by using a constant of 180 if you want to use it.

The shape of a bullet addresses only aerodynamic efficiency. A boat tail is more efficient than a flat base after it reaches subsonic speed, hence not much advantage for a hunter if any. I never come acrosss many boat tails that will be more accurate than a good flat  base.

In some instances BT's  need more twist. In BR shooting you never see a boat tail bullet, even some 1000yard shooters are using flat base bullets  and winning matches. I keep track of all the bullets and loads they use.

If you are looking for accuray a minimum twist with a flat base bullet is the way to go. The TSX Barnes is the exception.

Some people have the erronious idea that you need more twist for long range shooting because the bullet slows down. This is not so. You can see it by spinning a top on a table it still spins after it falls down. Once a bullet is stable when it leaves the barrel it wil be so until it falls to the ground where ever that may be.

I don't know that I can buy the micro groove barrel argument either. The same goes for the oversized bore argument.

This true when you are using cast lead bullets like you do, simply because they objurate when fired not so with a jacketed bullet. In other words lead bullets fit themself to the bore, providing you have enough pressure and they are not overly hard. Good lead bullets are extreamly accurate. But there is a limit how sloppy a bore can be.

The micro groove per se is ok if you have a proper size bore for a bullet.
What I think is happening with the heavier bullets with it's greater inertia, in an oversize bore than lighter bullet, is they miss engraving and do not achieve the proper rotational velocity hence they keyhole. This is just my idea and don't realy know if that is what takes place in some Handi's.

It has been reported here that dirty barrels will improve acccuracy, I buy that if the bore is oversize and has a build up of carbon and copper to fill the gaps. this sounds like a joke but it is quite plausible.

If I ever buy another Handi I will insist in the store that they let me take the barrel home to check out the bore and throat for size.

[Mac11700]

If I ever buy another Handi I will insist in the store that they let me take the barrel home to check out the bore and throat for size

That would be a very good store indeed... :wink:

Mac

[Longcruise]

The micro groove per se is ok if you have a proper size bore for a bullet.
What I think is happening with the heavier bullets with it's greater inertia, in an oversize bore than lighter bullet, is they miss engraving and do not achieve the proper rotational velocity hence they keyhole. This is just my idea and don't realy know if that is what takes place in some Handi's

I have another view on that, which I submit for your consideration.  An important factor in accuracy is the amount of yaw in the bullet as it leaves the muzzle.  Leaving the muzzle with a large degree of yaw will not necessarily destabilize (cause to tumble) the bullet however, as the bullet progresses in flight it will smooth out the yaw angle.  I think this process of smoothing out the yaw angle takes place mainly in the the first 100 yards or less and that process can cause a wider scattering (group size) of impact points.

Many .224 barrels shoot bullets up to 63 and 64 grains with fine accuracy.  I have a tikka that will do it and one of it's favorite bullets is a very long boattailed Sierra 60 gr HP.  I think the difference is barrel quality and uniformity That includes of course barrel size and also consistency in size.  On top of that we have that long throat that gives the bullet even more opportunity to get cockeyed in the bore.  

The shorter lighter bullets on the other hand, such as the win 45 probably have even more potential to get cockeyed than a longer bullet but also have potentially more static stability (same rotational velocity but a shorter bullet) than the longer ones.  Therefore they may recover more quickly from yaw at the muzzle even if they exit with a higher degree of yaw [this is all speculation on my part so take it with a grain of salt :grin: ]

I often see statements about the heavier bullets in the handi saying that the heavier bullets don't "stabilize" and therefore give poor accuracy.  Indeed, if they are not stabilizing, by the time they get to a 100 yard target, they will be flying sideways :shock:  

I also often see remarks to the effect that a shooter had a bullet "keyhole".  I would like to see those targets!  IMO, if they don't display the majority of the bullets literally going through the target sideways, then they are not keyholing.  If they are not keyholing for real, then the shooter is merely misinterepreting the holes in the paper.  Possibly as a result of searching for the cause of poor accuracy? :shock:

OTOH, if anybody is shooting a NEF .223 with 60 grain bullets and is getting true keyholes then the barrel is grossly defective and should be sent back to NEF with a resolve not to accept that factory excuse that the NEF is not suitable for bullets over 55 grains!!  

A 1:12 twist is classic in the 223 and thousands of excellent rifles have been built with it and given great results.  Also consider that the 22-250 has a standard twist of 1:14 and gives fine results with the same bullets shot in the 223.  Yes, I know that velocities are higher and that they effect the rotational velocity of the bullet, but by the same token the higher velocity increases enemy wind forces on the bullet but they remain stable.

I'm quite certain that a quality 223 barrel with a 1:14 twist would shoot as well as a 1:12 with the disclaimeer that I'm not really certain where accuracy would deterioriate as bullet weight increases :grin:

Ok, that's my rant for the day.  I'm off to my cave to sniff and whine to myself!

[Fred M]

Longcruise.
I agree with you that yaw will influence short range accuracy out to 300 yrds Mostly in long boatail bullets designed for long range shooting. but they still shoot nice round groups most of the time at 100 yards.

Yes I shot 60gr bullets in a 22-250 with a 1-14" twist but in that cartridge you make up stability with more velocity like all fast calibers can shoot with slower twists.

Like you said barrel quality is the crux to accuray, and when a barrel or a system produces shotgun patterns rather than groups then we have trouble that has nothing to do with twists or bullets.

And the Handi lock up system is my opinion subject to a great deal of inaccuracy and should be looked at lot more.

On the other hand a good barrel chambered and contoured costs more than two Handi rifles. I know because I just bought one not too long ago for $450 US. So whenyou buy a Handi you have to take your lumps and live with its limitation and home improve it as much as you can.

We have to consider that many financially challanged people would not go hunting if only expensive rifles were available. After all a 2" Handi will bag a deer just fine. The 25-06 Ultra recently bagged two deer with one shot at 300 yards? with my 117gr Speer Pro Hunter bullet handload. Went clean through one and 1/2 way through the other boith dropped dead. This is an 1-1/4 rifle. Wow, I was not  there but know where the shot was made. So thumbs up for the Handi that started out as a real dog.

[Fred M]

Mac.

That would be a very good store indeed...

I think I could manage it  as a good customer and a with little bribe  

[Paul5388]

longcruise,

The 63 gr bullets I loaded went through the target sideways, making a long bullet shaped hole, shot at 25 yards.

[Fred M]

Paul.
If you indeed have an oversize barrel and a 1-12" twist, the stability would further suffer from lower velocity in an oversize barrel.

In the 25-06 I found a 100 lower velocity because of the oversize bore with all loads compared to the Ruger#1 .with the same barrel length.

With a bullet going sideways through a target at 25 yards it would suggest unstability. Slugging the bore might not be a bad idea? Also a 64gr BT could well be over the limit at your velocity?

One other consideration on an oversize bore is that you cant make up velocity without the chamber pressure going through the roof.

[Ditchdigger]

Have they changed the micro groove barrel? My old Marlin in 30 30 bought new in 1960 had land in the shape of a peak,much like a tread on a bolt,and it was very accurate and deep. None of my barrels have micro groove. To the best of my memory mine has 12 lands, while all of my handis have 6. So have they changed it?   Digger

[Fred M]

I was under the impression that a .002" deep groove wae a micro groove since most normal grooves are .0035 to .004. Yes the 25-06 has six of these shallow grooves. Someone mentioned them as being micro groove.
By the looks of them I think the done by a button rifling process?

Anybody knows how they are done and if that is the proper name?

[Paul5388]

Fred,

I just don't think an oversized bore will shoot Win white box 45 gr Varminters at around an inch at 100 yards.  On 1/23/04 I checked the velocity of the Win white box 45 gr Varminter at 73 degrees F at 3236 fps and 3223 fps. (checked at 15' from the muzzle on a Chrony F1 Master).  It's slower than the 3600 fps advertised, but they probably weren't using a 22" barrel.

I'll load some of the 60 gr tonight and see if I can find time tomorrow to check them out.  

I have 35, 40, 50, 55, and 60 gr V-Max and so far none of them have shot as good as Rem 55 gr JHP or Win white box.  Of course, I also have 46 and 50 gr Rem, 45 gr Nosler solid base, 46, 50 and 55 gr Win and none of them will shoot as good as Win white box.

[Ditchdigger]

I was under the impression that a .002" deep groove wae a micro groove since most normal grooves are .0035 to .004. Yes the 25-06 has six of these shallow grooves. Someone mentioned them as being micro groove.
By the looks of them I think the done by a button rifling process?

Fred all of my micro groove barrells on my 444 marlin,30 30  and every thing that says micro groove on it has 12 grooves in it. All are normal depth also.

[Fred M]

Paul.

at 73 degrees F at 3236 fps and 3223 fps. (checked at 15' from the muzzle on a Chrony F1

You have some 370ft diff between the quoted and your readings from a 22" barrel. Hodgdon lists a simular velocity of 3674 with a 40 gr bullet from a 24" barrel.

With that same bullet there is a 443 ft diff between a 15" pistol barrel and a 24' rifle barrel. If you divide 443/9= 49ft reduction per inch of barrel.

It looks to me that you are missing quite a bit of velocity in your barrel.
Usually the velocity loss per inch is around 40 ft. I use the same Chrono and found it quite accuate when I compared it with another make.

So if you consider the factory ammo was achieved with a 24" barrel you would still be short by 290 ft. That is too much of a loss even if the factory lied by 100 ft it would still be too much.

[Paul5388]

The load:
UMC brass
CCI 400
60 gr V-Max flat base
26.5 gr Varget (this is not a compressed load at this OAL)
OAL 2.50"
The brass was neck sized in a Lee collet die, turned 90 degrees and sized again.  The OAL chambers without marking the bullet with the lands.  I loaded 9 rounds that I had already sized and primed, 4 for fouling shots and 5 for group.  The rifle is a standard .223 Rem synthetic Handi with 3-12X 50mm BSA Classic, no AO.  I weighed several bullets on a Dillon D'Terminator with weights ranging from 59.9 gr to 60.1 gr.

I guess tomorrow will tell something if it isn't raining or the wind blowing 100 mph.

Fred,

There's no telling what they used for a barrel length.  It could have been a 26" or who knows what.  I doubt that they used a long throat Handi rifle, that is going to reduce the pressure due to the throat length.

[Donaldo]

Paul5388,
The white box 45 JHP out of my 223 UV 24" barrel chrono 3400 to 3450 fps.  Not the 3600 they advertise.  However the white box 22-250 45 JHP advertised at 4,000 fps, out of my Shilen barreled Mauser chrono above 4,000.  Like 4,054-4,093 fps.  Guess the better grade barrel makes a difference, at least that is the way I read it. :-)

[Paul5388]

Donaldo,

I used Federal Match .22 LR to check the chrony before shooting and they were reasonably close to the advertised velocity (less than 20 fps difference).

The throat probably makes a difference in the pressure generated and thus the velocity will be lower.  I have these loaded at close to the OAL that Hornady specifies for the 80 gr data they have posted.  

I wasn't going to mess with the chrony, but I'll go ahead and set it up.  We'll see how close I get to 3200 fps with 33% more bullet than the 45 gr white box.

[Paul5388]

Here's the results from today's firing.

Average velocity corrected to MV 2987 fps.
Average energy corrected to ME 1228 ft lbs.
Ballistic Coefficient 0.264
The group could be better than this 2.125" 100 yard group, but it shows potential for a heavier bullet.

[Fred M]

Thanks Paul.
Since I don't have data for a 60gr Bullet I reserve comments, because it would only be an interpolation. The long free bore does show up however.

[Longcruise]

Paul, your group is similar to what I got with Sierra 60 gr HP with my Handi.  Mine went exactly 2.0 inch average of three five shot groups. Also, my chrono results with the win white box were similar too  Mine Averaged 3232.  From a bolt gun with a 23 7/8 barrel they averaged 3358.

60 grain Hornady jsp's averaged right at 3012 when loaded over 25.5 gr H335 and gave similar accuracy.

The 63 gr bullets I loaded went through the target sideways, making a long bullet shaped hole, shot at 25 yards.

I got ok accuracy with that weight bullet in my NEF but the shape of the bullet and the size of the bullet can have an effect.  shooting an undersize bullet from a correctly sized bore might act the same as an oversize bore :shock:

Fred,

Yes I shot 60gr bullets in a 22-250 with a 1-14" twist but in that cartridge you make up stability with more velocity like all fast calibers can shoot with slower twists

The probelm I have with attributing this result solely to velocity is that there will be an increased wind force and a stronger overturning force applied at higher veloctiy.  So which force will override, rotational rpm or wind force or?  Suppose there is no way to be certain since each bullet design will respond differently.

We have to consider that many financially challanged people would not go hunting if only expensive rifles were available. After all a 2" Handi will bag a deer just fine.

Yes, well I agree.  You probably felt that I was Handi bashing again and I freely admit to such in the past and predict more in the future.  In this case though I'm merely looking for explanations. :grin:

I feel like we practiacally agreed 100% on this stability thing except that I don't think it has to do with micro groove rifleing not properly rotating the bullet.  I should be easily determined if one retrieved some bullets that were suspects.  I don't see a bullet slipping the lands (which would seem to me to result in sizeing the bullet down and showing a considerable roughness and abuse from it)  If a clean bullet has rifling cleanly engraved on it it would seem to have followed the bore correctly :?

[Fred M]

Longcruice.

The probelm I have with attributing this result solely to velocity is that there will be an increased wind force and a stronger overturning force applied at higher veloctiy

.

Whether the stability of this 60gr FB  bullet is the sole result of velocity or just incidental. I don't know. All I do know is that a higher velocity requires less twist and stability is not influenced by wind. The only thing wind will do is drift the bullet in the direction of the wind. Do the stability formula, there is a good one on the net. Not the Greeehill one.

It also looks to me that the bullets that Paul just tested are stable and the inaccuracy is caused by other on goings. A 1-12" twist should easy stabilize the 60gr bullet.

I have come to the conclusion that Handi bashing is of no avail, simply people love these little guns and are quite happy with them  even with some of the shortcomings.

If a clean bullet has rifling cleanly engraved on it it would seem to have followed the bore correctly

I am not too sure how a bullet can cleanly engrave when only 64% or less of the lands heights are available. The bullet starts from a dead stop and is driven into lands at 3xxx ft that are barely existing and forced to turn. This scenario is bad enough with fully projecting lands. This is my point whether it has validity or not but it makes some sense to me.

It is also a known fact that super accuracy is only obtained with  the least amount of twist at which a bullet is stable for the the above mentioned reasons. I just got an e-mail from a shooter that is building a 22-250 with a 1-18" twist and a 32" barrel. Do think that rifle will shoot? you bet it will.

18" twist in a 30 bore is quite common in a 30BR shooting 125gr bullets at 3000 ft/sec and put them all into one hole.

Eh man, I got to get off the computer and do some chores. See you later

[Paul5388]

Gentlemen,

Let's not forget this is the first load I have tried with this bullet.  It may well be that there is a need for a little more or less Varget or even an entirely different powder to get the accuracy potential out of it.

It could also be that I'm a bad shot!   :roll:

[Fred M]

Paul.
Yes I would try to up the powder a bit. Varget is the best powder for the 2233 as far as pressure is concerned it gives the highest velocity with the least pressure or there abouts.

Since you have considerable free bore a little more powder wont hurt.
I would also move the bullet out as far as you can perhaps you can touch the lands?

When I moved the bullets into the lands with the 25-06 using the long 117gr bullets which by the way were a 1/2 thou bigger at .2575" dramatic improvement occurred.

These long throats specially if they are bigger in diam than a 1/2 thou are a real pain. The smallest amount of eccentricity will magnify in the lead.

[Paul5388]

Fred,

My son and another lad needed some shells loaded, so I haven't had time to get back to the .223 yet.  Before that, I had to try out my new RIMZ full moons in the S&W 625-4 ( I shot almost a box of shells with one RIMZ and no sore fingers!).  

However, I'll probably try 27.0 gr Varget with the 60 gr Hornady's tonight.  I can lengthen the OAL just a little, but will probably try it at the length it is set for now.  If I up the load and move the bullet out, I may run into pressure problems, so I'll take one step at a time.