Author Topic: pointing labs? (Read 2180 times)

harley · « **on:** January 29, 2003, 08:13:27 AM »

OK whats the real deal? More than half the folks I talk to say labs are flushers when hunting upland game. Others say labs that work field trials are excellent pointers and that most labs can be taught to point upland game, honor point and do the whole deal as well as any of the "pointing breeds"!! I'm getting real close to making a decision on a dog, sure would like a lab that points well !!! TX

freddogs · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2003, 05:45:17 AM »

:idea: Harley , most dogs have some ability to point , flush, retrieve, and track game. Since dogs have been around we've been breeding them for what we want them to do. I had a spaniel tht would point at times. I didn't encourage this. She just did it.
Some guys had Labs that would point. They figgered that was neat and breed thier labs to strenghten that trait. Now they have pointing labs. There are a lot of labs out there that don't point and have no tendency to point. So what you have heard from everyone is right.
Breeds like shorthairs and wirehairs were bred by Germans to hunt, point, retrieve, and track. So this isn't anything new.
Quail hunting field trailing has moved some breeds to more resemble english poiners. A lot of Brittanies and shorthairs greatly resemble pointers in range and physical body size and shape.
Here is what all this means.
Get whatever breed you want.
Your puppy will resemble its parents. If the parents don't point it unlikely the puppy will.If you like a particular hunting dog, find out about the breeding and get the same.
I've hunted over many breeds . Labs, springers ,american water spaniels , chesapeakes, golden retrievers,brittanies,shorthairs, wirehairs, and mutts.I liked most of them . Ther are excellant dogs in every breed.
Think of what triats you want in a dog.
What breeds are best known for those traits.
Look at parents of a pup. Do you want a dog like that.
50% of what you get out of a dog is your training and time you put into it.
It might be 75 %.
When labs are breed to resemble pointers will they still be labs?
Good luck. I still like my wirehairs for my kind of hunting. :devil2:

sjc1 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2003, 06:20:52 AM »

Labs point? Labs retrieve? Gee, I thought all labs were like my Genny, just lying in front of the fireplace until they are fed. Then get out of her way or you will be run over on her way to her food dish.

To be serious though, I first was made aware of pointing labs about fifteen years ago when I saw one working for pheasants. They do point. The individual that had this pointing lab got the dog from a breeder in the upper midwest. I believe he said that this pointing trait was being bred for by some breeders in that area.

harley · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2003, 12:07:19 PM »

Thanks for the input guys.

You pose an interesting question Freddogs. I wouldn't want to give up the Labs strong suits ( good retrieving & strong swimming ) for a dog that points. I've got to have a strong waterdog hunting ducks and geese on a river the size of the Colorado. That being said if he points, great bonus!!!!
You getting excited about your new pup Freddogs?Can't wait to see a pic.I'm going to look at a chocolate lab Sunday that advertises being out of pointing stock. I'll let you know.

Hud · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2003, 05:05:48 PM »

Labs can do lots of things. We have used Labs for many years to hunt coon at night, ducks and ruffed grouse during the day.

When my boys where young they used theirs to pull a dog sled out to the fish house in the winter. It can be a mess when two Labs pulling a sled hit a coon trail and chase the coon up a sloped tree then each fall off opposite sides of the tree and hang there by their harnesses. My younger son would also snowboard behind his. He also trained his to herd minnows into his minnow net.

My Lab, Sammy, watches down the hole for northerns in my ice spearing shack. When she sees one swim up to the decoy she whines and wags her tail. I put down my book and pick up my spear!

She's not a pointer though, mostly a layer-a-rounder.

Hud

freddogs · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2003, 02:48:08 PM »

:lol: Harley, I am excited about getting my new puppy. Right now she's only an idea in the breeders mind. The breeder said his bitch should come into heat in may. It's a long wait yet.
I still have my 5 year old male wirehair. I hope I can still get him out this winter.
I guess I'll have to figure out how to post pictures.

jdbe · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2003, 10:05:20 PM »

Ok, all of what you heard about labs is true. Mine points just fine. The big difference in the true pointing breeds vs the flushing breeds is that the pointer primarily scent on the air while the flushers mostly ground scent.
By this, I mean a shorthair or setter will locate birds by airborn scent mostly. They will cover a lot of ground very fast to locate birds.
Flushers (like a lab) locate birds mostly by following ground scent trails. They work an area a bit more methodically as a result.
This difference is styles is something to consider and would largely depend on the style/type of hunting that you plan to do.
Another differnce between the pointers vs the flushers/retrievers is that many pointers are not natural retrievers and must be forced to learn to retieve - something to consider lol. A very good comprimise is a brittany spaniel which points but has strong retrieval instincts ( though they run a little small at 30-35#).
It is important to remember that labs were used in europe for upland game hunting for years and years before they were brought to the states.
Also, most labs can be taught to point if you know how to teach them to, but they will never cover ground like a true pointer.

JACKNZ · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2003, 01:31:10 AM »

All my labs an most of my friends point,It is not a real classy point like a dog bred for it but yeah they do.Iv,e noticed they will normaly start to point after about 18 months when they are already working well.In NZ we use labs alot for pointing and tracking deer as well as for ducks and upland birds,A good all round dog.Now where did I put that donut..dang.
Jack..

crawfish · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2003, 05:36:58 PM »

I see this is an old thread but none the less here goes. On July 11th I had to put my hunting pardner, Jolie, down. She was only 9 this past Father's Day. Jolie was 4.5 generation pointing Lab out of the Alma Bottoms Kennels. She was welped by a Vet, Ron Hansen in MINN. Jolie had as steady and classy a point as many "pointers" I have seen and better than some. Her nose was second to none and she NEVER overran birds. Most of all she loved birds any birds. Doves in September, quail in November and ducks/geese when the ice formed on the ponds. Jolie was able to "switch" between pointer and retriver with ease. I only had one problem that we were able to work out easily. She on many occassions, while in pointer mode, would lock up on birds at 90 or more feet, so I taught her to bump up (re-position ) until I could get close enough to kick the bird/s up. I will miss her and the dove opener will not be the same without her. MY POINTING LAB was a classy pointer and a top notch retriver and I couldn't have asked for any more out of her than she was more than willing to give.

JACKNZ · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2003, 01:27:44 PM »

EVERY GOOD DOG IS A HEART BREAK IN THE MAKING.

I don,t know who first said that, but they sure knew what they were talking about.
Sorry for your loss....JACK.

RB Rooson · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2003, 03:51:13 AM »

Very good post....and many excellent replies! Pointing by Labs as you probably already surmised is not unusual at all. Have found that a good working/hunting dog will adapt to your needs in the field and actually learn different aspects of field work.

Had a Jack Russell female that was an absolute bear on woodchucks; learn to tree and work squirrels just by watching how I moved around the tree; and would point Pheasants!!!! (....had to down one first, then she found it in the cornfield......seemed to think "Hey, this is cool!" and then developed a "nose for 'em". I would get at least one Pheasant per day after that......she wasn't the classic "pointer", but she did get birds!!

Big Hext Finnigan · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2003, 04:37:23 AM »

Howdy all,

Crawfish, tough duty. We buy into the situation when we get in the dog's lives. The best we can hope for is to bury our buddies after a good life, but bury them we will. I'm hopeful that your next pup gives you the same enjoyment.

Pointing Labs: I am a recovering Field Trialer. And IMO, the pointing Labs are evidence, that Pointers were bred into the Labrador to increase their land speed for performance events. When I have imported or bougth from English stock, I find very little, if any, pointing instinct. I have had several Labs that pointed and every one was from FT stock. They are thinner, with a high tail carry and very fast on land. They were also excellent pheasant dogs.

As a purist of sorts, I tend to prefer breeds that work as intended. So if I want a versatile, I would get a GWP, GSP or another well reputed and bred pup. If I want a pointer, I like Setters. (the only long haired breed I like, funny.) and if I want a retriever, I get a Lab.

Harley, I wish you the best in finding a pup from a background and breeding that fits you to a T.

Adios,

jiminpa · « **Reply #12 on:** December 24, 2003, 04:51:50 AM »

i had a pointing lab i got in omaha nebraska. she did this on her own.she was the best phesant/dove/duck dog i ever had.her only vise was chasing rabbits.she lasted 15 years and 3 states,hope my new lab is half of her!

Don Fischer · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2005, 05:41:06 PM »

Well all you guy's that got pointing lab's get ready to get me. Lab's don't point, it's more like a blink. They are taught they can't catch a bird on the gruond so they stop and stand still. You could do the same thing with a springer. Labs are the king of retrievers but some people think little Johnny can do it all. It's a sad thing to see what some folks do to a dog. Labs have a very faithfull following and some of those follower's would have you believe they, labs, can do it all. I've a suggestion for those people, enter a pointing dog open all age stake. That has come to describe a type of dog but in reality it's a stake open to all handler's and dog's of any age. Your pointing labs will stand about as much chance there as a pointing dog will in a retriever trial. Most any breed can be taught to stop and stand still but some lab breeders, long on ambitution and short on ethics prefer to promote pointing labs for INCOME!!!

rider · « **Reply #14 on:** February 14, 2005, 05:30:27 PM »

Check out bearpoint kennels in Larkspur, Co. I have seen these dogs work are they are amazing.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2005, 04:28:58 AM »

Ya. But you can bring your grocery's home in a wheelborrow or you can bring them home in a Caddie. In the case of the pointing? Lab and the true pointing dog, the cost the same. Would you be willing to pay $45,000 for a wheelborrow? After you watch those pointing labs, go watch a good pointing dog! That'll answer your question.

rider · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2005, 05:41:15 PM »

The dog I watched won the 2002 or 2003 open. It beat out all of those real pointing dogs.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2005, 11:10:14 AM »

2002 or 2003 open what? It didn't beat out any pointing breed at it's own game! I like all dog's and I also fully recognize the limitation's of each. I'm not down on labs, I love them. But you guy's that think your labs can compete on a level course with an even average pointer are as mis-informed as the shorthair guy's and springer guy's that think their dog's can compete on a level course in retrieving with a Lab! Those shorthair and springer people are there, they're just not as vocial. Go to a field trial, any trial, AKC, NSTRA, Amer. Fld. and see what the cream of the crop really do. Go to an AKC pointing dog test,run your dog and show me even one that can cut it. If you have a lab, you've got the finest retriever on the face of this earth, even Golden's, Chessie's and Irish water Spaniels can't compete with them. Then you people want to hold them up to other breed's operating in their speciality, that's insanity! It's ok to love your dog but you people would ask a shetland pony to race against thourobreds.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2005, 01:43:51 PM »

harley,

If your still following this then you must by now realize my disgust with those people claiming pointing status for labs. They are doing a really fin breed a huge disservice assigning to trait's it lack's! Lack's is what I said. It's no big trick to teach a dog to stop when it smell's a bird nor would it be any trick to teach one to honor. But that doesn't make a pointing dog. I don't doubt for one minute that these thing's are happening but for people like yourself that really want a pointing dog but have been expossed to a lab, a fine dog in it's own right, and buy into this pointing lab theory,your being dupped. Check with N.A.V.H.D.A. and see how many labs have been certified as versiltile hunting dog's, I don't know but I'll bet none is an awfully close answer. You know why? Because Labs DON'T POINT!!!!!! You need to decide what you want in a dog and go for it. Sound's like you like labs but want a pointing dog and are confussed by those who make those outragious claim's. You can put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig! Don't be duped.

rider · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2005, 03:48:58 PM »

The dog that I watched work won the 2002 2003 North American Gun Dog Open Doubles and the 2003 NAGD open. And yes it beat out all your standard pointing breads.

crawfish · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2005, 02:41:57 PM »

Ill have to disagree with you Mr. Fischer. My bitch Jolie was the talk of the town when she arrived. People didnt know what to expect to see with a pointing Lab some sort of mixed breed maybe. The local amateur upland dog club invited us to train and compete it their POINTING field trials. I learned a lot from these men and women about training pointers. At 22 months Jolie and I were un-invited to win. We could trial but couldnt win anymore. I guess all those owners of big running GSP, English Pointers, Brits and Springers got tired of being beat by a LAB. At 24 months we didnt need to go anymore so we stopped. I dont see many of those people anymore. I still see the guy who was the one to invite me to the club here at work, tells me they still speak badly of Jolie on occasion at the meets. You may want to look at the web sites for the American Pointing Lab Association (APLA) or the International Pointing Lab Association (IPLA) to open you closed mind on this. BTY I currently have a 20 months old black Lab bitch that points as steady, as high tailed, and as classy as any of the pointing breeds out there plus she loves to retrieve so I dont have all that foolishness that lots of pointers do with refusal to retrieve.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2005, 05:00:40 PM »

Well crawfish I'm glad you love your dog and that it works for you. Have you heard of A.K.C. ,National shoot to Retrieve, American Field, North American Versitle Hunting Dog Assoc, National Bird Hunter's Assoc? If you want to compete, compete with the better dog's. Then come tell me how you did. In the mean time, when I was raising shorthair's and Pointer's, I would guarentee EVERY pup would point a bird wing on a fishing rod by eight week's and live bird's by 12 week's. Will any pointing lab make the same guarentee? I doubt it. It's not a matter of a closed mind,I like lab's.
But I also recognize they're limitation's and pointing breed limitayions also. Suggesting that Lab's are pointing dog's is a disservice to lab's as a breed if asked to prove themselve's as a whole and a disservice to the public in general as you can't guarentee you can produce these dog's on a regular basis. Love your dog, that's great, teach it to point if you can, fine with me, but stop with the nonsense that confusing so many people that are believing that lab's can point when in truth, even if the rare one can, in general the don't. People go looking for a pointing dog then someone represent,s lab's as pointing dog's is purely dishonest!