Author Topic: Another noknockdown for my 45 70  (Read 2138 times)

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Offline Ditchdigger

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Another noknockdown for my 45 70
« on: December 08, 2004, 03:09:31 PM »
I shot another pig today,about 150pds.and it ran straight at me,funny how fast you can reload a handi with a pig coming at you. Anyway I was about 30' higher than her and maybe 30 yds. away,and I guess she could'nt make the climb and headed to my right and piled up about 60 yds. from where I shot her.I hit her behind the left shoulder and it made the exit in the right shoulder,breaking it in the process. I called Lik2hunt since he go's with me sometimes (he had to work late today) and he came and got it for his freezer. I guess I'll have to put the 280 barrel back on,its dropped 2 in there tracks so far. :) Lik2hunt's gun is still bloodless,and if it get's bloody, I think someone else is going to have to borrow it and shoot something with it. :roll:   Digger
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Offline Wlscott

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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2004, 03:17:46 PM »
Digger, I shot a big Mulie with mine at 150 yards using a 405 grain cast bullet at about 1300 fps.  It walked off on me too.  I did hit it a bit far back though.

Have you pinwheeled both shoulders on a pig yet with that 45-70?  Just curious if that would put it down right now.
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Offline Ditchdigger

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Another noknockdown for my 45 70
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2004, 03:30:52 PM »
The only "dropum in there tracks" shot I've found is the neck or head shot,I still don't know why the 280 worked so well,because it was a behind the shoulder shot also. I did drop one with my 7 mag in the shoulder shot,but it was a 2nd. shot to keep him from making it to the thickets.  Digger
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Offline JPH45

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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2004, 04:52:07 PM »
I'm gonna step in it again....

While this flies in the face of the big slow bullets lovers (myself included) the answer is VELOCITY. People don't like it when told that their beloved 45-70 is not the best killer that ever came down the pike. We've been sold a lot of nostalgia stuff. It is a great deer cartridge. In  my life time I've shot 3 deer with it, and the hits are obvious and unmistakeable, but it ain't no death beam. The fact is that death is the result of one of two or a combination of the two things, blood loss and suffocation. (I am avoiding massive nerve damage like a brain shot, this is not a typical hunting shot) There is nothing we can do to make an animal bleed out faster than drill a bigger hole, and this is where velcoity pays off. On soft organ tissue it has the effect of drilling bigger holes. There is a lot of difference between a lung that is simply deflated (a big hole) and a lung that has been turned into mush by a high speed (over 2400 fps) expanding bullet. I've had to gut and carry out some 23 deer, and there seems to be a difference between time to expire in these two types of wounds. But most of the deer I have killed have run at least 20 yards, some as far as 60. The heart shots seem able to run farthest, go figure. The only deer I have shot that dropped on the spot were spined. I've done this 3 times, and even with three inches of their back missing, the deer were moving as much as they could.

My conclusion about killing game is that it is a gruesome event in which time is suspended and the few moments it takes for the animal to expire seem like forever. Even worse to us are those times when an animal escapes our vision and all we can do is listen to their death throes. I hate that. I imagine a 300 Win Mag is something close to a death ray, that may explain why I meet so many using it these days. Somehow though, I prefer my sausage and hamburger to be ground by the butcher, those 3000 fps+ 150's are not nearly as selective.
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Offline Ditchdigger

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Another noknockdown for my 45 70
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2004, 05:05:55 PM »
JPH 45, its like one guy described the hogs as a walking bullet trap.A friend of mine shot one in eastern Okla.. The first shot should have killed( it was a 3030 at 30 yds., it was a small sow and she turned toward him and he shot her in the head,she kept comeing and he hit in the right shoulder,she turned sideways and he shot her in the side of the head and it finally dropped. The frontal head shot he made glanced off,cutting a channel along the right side of her head,right shoulder,and entered the rear hindquarter somehow.
I shot one at 150 yds.running with my 300 Wby. mag and 180 gr.BT's and it acted as nothing had happened at all. I ran 125 yds. with its heart and most of its lung blown out the 4" exit hole.  Digger
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2004, 05:32:07 PM »
On game terminal bullet performance can be different for like animals under different circumstances. I've shot lots of elk and deer with a 308win and 30-06. The biggest majority of em have been through the lungs broadside, center shot, not high close to the spine. High shots can knock em off their feet and they don't get up if the bullet is a high speed bullet with a lot of shock, it doesn't have to hit the spine to cause instant paralysis. Some of em fell within a few feet if they weren't aware of me before the shot, others that were either running from me or already on the move from being spooked by someone else ran anywhere from 50yds to 150yds, with massive blood loss on the way. In my opinion, the big slow .45-70 bullets that are hard enough to not deform and expand are meant to break bones and should no be used on boiler room shots because they don't offer the shock and expansion of smaller faster bullets and just zip right thru and transfer little energy to the critter. I used to hunt with rem corelokts, they very seldom passed thru, usually ended up under the hide on the opposite side, but they killed just as effectively if placed in the lungs. I've killed 3 bucks with .50 cal round balls, they all exited the deer, 2 were broadside or close to broadside 40-50yds away, one ball was recovered in the offside knee joint, was expanded to double the .498" size it started at. The exit wound in the chest wall was 1" in both. The third was a high shoulder shot at a quartering away standing shot, the ball didn't hit the spine but was close enough than it knocked it off it's feet and was down long enough for me to reload the flintlock and walk up to it for a kill shot in the ear. The exit wound in the front of the shoulder was ~1".
My point is that the .45-70 with some bullets that don't impart any energy on the animal aren't going to be as effective as bullets that expand and either cause a massive wound channel or expend all their energy on the animal. It is my understanding the bullets, even hard cast bullets with a large flat meplat, are more effective than round nose non-expanding bullets due to the fact that they transfer more energy through hydrostatic shock to the animal even though they don't expand, but not having shot any of those, I can't say first hand.
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Offline AZ223

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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2004, 05:39:19 PM »
Like JPH45, I like the big, slow bullets. Unfortunately, my more limited experience has been the same -- on deer-size animals the 30 caliber high-speed bullets have a better effect. I've seen a whitetail run fifty yards after being shot with a .45-70. On gutting it, there was a perfect hole through the animal's heart; it had run with no blood pumping! Later, a four-pointer hit with 150gr from a .30-06 had its heart & lungs pulverized; dropped on the spot.

I think the big heavy bullets are better for thick-skinned, heavy-boned game. Yet even so, my .30-06 has taken a good size Colorado elk with one shot behind the shoulders. As much as I'd like a .45-70, I can't fault the '06.
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2004, 07:20:08 PM »
The trick I'm told to having the hogs drop with the 45-70 is simple...use the right bullet at the right velocity...Digger...load up some 300 grain Noslers partitions to about 2200fps-2300 fps...or wait till Febuary when I come down to visit and hunt some hogs with Like2hunt and I'll let you try my Marlin...

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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2004, 07:26:06 PM »
:wink: heh heh...the problem with those good loads is they have knock down power on both ends of the rifle! :eek:
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2004, 07:46:22 PM »
Yep...but they should knock ya out of the way of the hog too :)  :)

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Offline lik2hunt

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Another noknockdown for my 45 70
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2004, 01:18:58 AM »
First of all "work late" is certainly an understatement.....try a day that started at 2:45 a.m. and eneded at 5:45 p.m. Then after all that, I drove out to the woods and gutted the hog (with some help) and then ran out of gas on the way to the procesor's and finally got home to mama at about 8:30 p.m. What a day. :roll:  But thanks to my good friend Digger (smart owl-ic comment about my gun disregarded  :) ) I now have a nice little 50 lb. deer morsel and a good 120-130 lb. hog at the processor's. Thats some good eatin' no matter who drove the bullet home.
As far as the bullet and shot placement go, it appeared that the bullet only barely caught the front part of her heart and took out both lungs. Lots of blood in that area underneath and no real distinguishible lungs, hard to really tell in the dark. She was sure dead tho, but I don't know how she got as far as she did with that busted shoulder. He also didn't mention that she had a pair of piggies inside her and was probably real close to dropping them. She really didn't look all that heavy until we picked her up to put her in my pick-up :shock: ........I don't know about the front end, but the back end felt like 80 pounds or so. I didn't weigh her before taking her to the procesor's so it's just a guess, but I'd say she field dressed at about 130.
Mac - ya might wanna load them Noslers down some for ole Digger, he's a little recoil shy. (Sorry Digger, but I owed ya one :))
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Offline Cottonwood

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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2004, 02:49:42 AM »
You got to remember when talking cast bullets... just how hard is the cast bullet? Super Hard Cast of 15-1 yep will pass through withoug much damage.  30-1 to 40-1 soft cast.......  There is a big differance on what those bullets will do, and shot placement is everything.

Your trying to compare apples to oranges here.  Using a like bullet of soft jacket pure lead center you have a differance of re-action from the bullets.  Using a 150-gr or 165-gr JSP from a 30-06 or .308 and hitting the animal in the shoulder will cause quite a bit of meat damage possibly loosing both shoulders from damage and bloodshot.  Using a 300-gr, 350-gr or 405-gr JSP in 45-70 and shooting the animal in the same place will not have hardly any meat damage at all.  Now having said this, just how fast these bullets are loaded will change things as well.

If you use a hard cast bullet in a 30-06 or 308 etc you would have the same re-action as you would with a hard cast 45-70 though and through with hardly any damage to anything.

I have shot deer with my 45-90 using a 530-gr paper patch bullet of 30-1 soft cast with 90.0 gr of FFg Goex, which after being shot turned and dropped after two steps.  There was no meat damage as the shot was to the heart lung.

JMHO

Offline BIGBOREFAN

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Another noknockdown for my 45 70
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2004, 03:02:00 AM »
JPH I agree with you about the velocity thing. I shot a 6 point with a 300 WSM with 150 grain BST traveling 3300 FPS. The shot was close and the exit hole was slightly bigger than a softball. But, I've been wanting another 45-70, so I ordered a barrel for my TC G2. Now if I could just find a pig to shoot with mine I'd be a happy camper or maybe I should say I'd be a happy Ditchdigger :-D


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Offline Buckeye

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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2004, 03:16:48 AM »
I've got a Marlin GG in 45/70 and i've had those stupid (tuff) pigs run like i've hit'em with a spit ball till they suddenly roll up and break out with  bullet holes and die from lead posion ! :)  I use 405 rem. pushed to 1800fps.
A pal of mine was wittness to one of my runnig pig incidents,told me to use factory Rem. 300 gr. hollow points, said he's never had one go over  50ft.to 75 ft. but he said its leaves a big exit hole.  :shock:
Hadn't had the chance to try it .

Hey Big Bore PO/MO going out today ,That little 357 Max. maybe my secret weapon against those Pigs ! :grin:
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Offline BIGBOREFAN

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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2004, 03:31:28 AM »
My Uncle uses a 1895CB (that I used to own) in 45-70 He was using 300 JHP's and shot a deer with them. He was not to impressed. The intrance hole was baseball size and the exit hole was about 1''. He said he was not going to use the 300 grain HP's. I told him did the deer run (NO) Seems to me the 300 HP spent almost all the energy in the deer. I do not think I would use them on a hog. I like Mac's idea of the Nosler Partion's.


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Offline BIGBOREFAN

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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2004, 03:38:36 AM »
Buckeye, I would use the max on a hog. But, I would get me some 180 Nosler Partions. They should work real good at 2000 FPS. :twisted:  I just wish we had hogs here in WV. :(


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Offline Joel

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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2004, 06:11:56 AM »
Seems like everyone's interested in having them animals fall right on the spot.  Can't track?  I've shot deer with a 6mm loaded with 100 gr Noslers at 3200 fps(17 of those), with an 8 X 57 Mauser with Max loads using 150 and 170 grs, 30-40 Krag with 180's at 2400fps, 22 with the 45/70 using 300 gr bullets going anywhere from 2200 fps to around 1660 fps in factory loads; and my last two with the 400 gr Speer traveling at 1750 fps.  Oh yeah, my first deer was with my Uncle's 20 guage Mossberg and a forster type slug.  Out of all those deer shot, and the range NEVER exceeded 125 yds(and that only once).  The only deer that fell in their tracks were spine shot(as someone else posted).  I have however seen deer shot with 270's and 300 Winchesters that DID drop in their tracks, but the results were disgusting.  Yet the people who shot them like that were proud of what had happened.  I can only shake my head.    Easy enough to drop them like that when the whole front of the deer is destroyed.  My rationale for moving away from the higher speed calibers I used to the 45/70 was to find a caliber that would punch a large hole(including some expansion) that would just about guarantee a relatively quick death IF the animal was hit properly, and to honor that animal by making as much use of it as  possible.  From what I've read on the subject, an animal can have it's heart and lungs destroyed but will continue to run as long as the brain still has oxygen....unless massive hemmoraging (read bloodshot meat) occurs.   About 30 seconds worth.  I do agree  that any bullet used should expand somewhat(except obviously massive/tough animals on the order of elephant/rhino etc), in order to make the animal's death occur as soon as possible.  I've no idea what the term "humane kill" means.....I would assume the only humane shot is one to the brain, where the animal's consciousness is destroyed.  From my own experience over the years, I've seen deer run with literally parts of the lungs laying where the animal was hit, and blood spray eveywhere.  Seen them run with shoulders broken etc.  Farthest I've ever had a deer run on me using the 45/70 was the last one I shot using 300 gr HP's at 2200 fps.  Shot her at about 30 yds as she was crossing a small frozen pond.  When I reached the spot where I had hit her, their was lung and blood  everywhere on the snow.  Figured she only made it to the edge of the pond into the brambles; ended up tracking her for 100 yds where she had run down the mountain(the wrong side of course).  Just shot a ten point buck yesterday which I hadn't gotten around to posting yet.  The 400 gr Speer FN hit him at about 60 yds(my first offhand shot in years!) high in the lungs, and I watched him run about 30-40 yds before he collapsed....he was dead when I got to him , as they usually are.  Same distance, about, as the smaller doe I had shot earlier with the same results.  The bullet had performed exactly as the one I mentioned in my previous post about #23.    The only deer I"ve ever  had to shoot twice were those shot with the 300 gr Barnes semi-spitzers at 2200 fps.  They were both shot at close range....both exited the animals without ever epanding at all.  Both deer ran about 50 yds and lay down and were taking their time dying....hence the second shot.  Wrong bullet at the wrong velocity in the wrong animal.  I've long ago come to the conlusion that there are hunters and then there are shooters.  One hunts, and respects the animal enough to take the responsibilty of getting the max use out of what they kill...and the others talk about "performance" with no regard for the amount of the animal(s) ends up wasted..  Have no idea who is what here, so don't be getting on my butt for that.....don't know ya'll from Adam; it's just what I've seen over the years.  To me, the proper caliber for a  given animal is the one that kills as quickly as possible without destroying it.....and even then there are variables on top of variables.  I'm out of breath now.

Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2004, 06:43:35 AM »
Joel:

I completely agree with your sentiments...my experiance with the Noslers has been great expansion...bullet holding together...and complete pass thru...my 10 pointer last year went only a few feet and piled into a downed tree less than 30 feet from where I shot him...no wasted meat(except for some rib meat...awsome blood trail...and a qiuck death for the animal...I've also seen deer shot with some of the standard 300 grain bullets...handloads and factory...and I wasn't the least impressed...yes..the deer was dead...and a point can be made for that..but there was just too much blood shot meat...and my conclusions is I want a bullet that will preform at all resonable ranges..it has to expand properly...not over expand(softball sized hole going in) but still expand great on the inside to do massive damage to the vitals... and to transfer enough energy to the animal to disrupt the CNS of it,and then exit with a larger diameter hole than it entered with...this seems to be the optimum sceanario for what ever game your hunting...with the lightly constructed 300 grainer...those up close shots(under 30 yards) the bullet overexpands...and with some of the 350's out there...they pass staraight on thru and the 405's expand some but not enough unless you take a shoulder shot...granted you still have a .458 diameter hole going thru...and that will work...but ...you could have a long trailing job...or wind up losing the animal to game thiefs...soooo.. I get the best of both worlds  in using the Noslers at 2200-2300 fps it's a great bullet and very accurate out of my gun...

Mac
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Offline borg1

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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2004, 06:58:11 AM »
if you break both shoulders they won't go anywhere.   :eek:

Those 45/70 loads should zip through both, and take a bit of the heart and lungs to boot.

i pop deer sized and smaller game on the shoulder with my .308 and have not lost a one.  Most (90%) get achored.  I use bonded Hornady bullets in the 150 to 165 gr range.  I would not try this shot with non-bonded bullets, though.  AND in no circumstances am i advocating double shoulder shots for any situation.  These Virginia deer are not heavy set critters in the shoulder area, so shoulder shots work.

I am anxious to try the .500 S&W on deer and pigs when/if it comes out in the Handi.

Offline gwhilikerz

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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2004, 07:25:17 AM »
My uncle had a simple theory about his deer hunting and shot placement. "If you have a big, heavy bullet shoot 'em high on the shoulder. If you have a "high stepper" bullet put it in the boiler" It worked for him and the rest of us who heeded his advice.

Offline borg1

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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2004, 07:34:04 AM »
That is very sound advice gw...

Offline aulrich

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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2004, 07:56:29 AM »
This thread is along the lines of a question that's been bouncing around in my mind and that is: Were Elmer Keith and Jack O'Conner both right. As I understand it

Keith = Big slow flat nose is more reliable killer
O'Conner = Light fast is more effective.

And I actually think the answer is yes.  Given that the bullet is going to the vitals, but the bullet can impact from any angle. The big flat nose bullet is the ultimate in low tech as long as it was of an appropriate alloy/construction and inside effective range it will make it to the vitals and then some. The animal will most likely not drop on the spot but should only be a short distance away at the end of a good blood trail.

On the other hand a high velocity bullet place right, in many cases drop it right there or in a few steps. But only if the bullet performed right. The bullet has to expand the correct amount or you could have a problem. If it expands too much you may not get to the vitals and too little expansion and the wound channel may not be big enough to kill the animal quickly.

So if you guage he effectiveness buy how quick the animal is on the ground the high speed has the nod but for ulimate reliability the nod goes to big and flat

So I guess the best of both worlds is big and fast (wasn't Elmer fond of the .33's) long live the 338  :-D
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Offline Ditchdigger

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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2004, 10:07:32 AM »
For all those concerned, the bullet was a factory 300 gr. Win. hollowpoint. and the exit hole was about the same as the entry. I'll probably use it again this evening because its already in the hunting truck. I still don't know how the 280 dropped the 2 hogs in there tracks,guess they were sissies. Well I gotta go for now and call Lik2 hunt and see if I can get him a shot.   :-D   Digger
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2004, 10:10:49 AM »
One cause that I've read about that may explain why some drop and others run...at the moment of impact, if the animal was inhaling or exhaling might have some effect that is compounded by bullet impact. Just a theory I've seen tossed around. :?
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Offline JPH45

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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2004, 12:10:20 PM »
Quote from: quickdtoo
One cause that I've read about that may explain why some drop and others run...at the moment of impact, if the animal was inhaling or exhaling might have some effect that is compounded by bullet impact. Just a theory I've seen tossed around. :?


Yeah, that's whole 'nuther subject there, physiology. Just how are animals put together, and just what is going on when one is hit. The bow hunters I have talked to think nothing of a deer running as far a 60 yards before lying down. While I've never seen an arrow wound, I have a pretty good imagination, and it strikes me that most broad heads I see are going to open a wound channel about 1.5" in diameter.  In some cases, this is actually larger than the permanent wound channel a bullet leaves.

But that's a little off the subject of physiology. What are all the reactions to being shot? Does adrenilin increase? What happens when the brain sends a signal to the heart to pump faster and there is nothing on the recieveing end? I've been in a couple of life threatening situations, my reaction was, GET OUT NOW! It was only after the event  that I experienced consciously my increased heart and breath rate, and other physical reactions. Are those in anyway similar to an animal when shot? I can only think some are at least.  

It is frustrating to be a hunter, and have a strong desire to make clean kills, only to find the tool of choice is not performing as expected. But all the performance may not be on the tool, some belongs to the animal as well. At this point all I can do echo what has already been stated. As hunters of conscious, we do the best we can to kill as effectively as possible. Perhaps what is needed Digger is a heavier or softer bullet. I hear the Remington 400's expand well, easily and have a good reputation as game bullets. Surely if you can deal with the recoil of a modern magnum, you can deal with the recoil of a 1700 fps 400 grainer. Meanwhile, I'm gonna go work on my instant death ray :eek:
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Offline aulrich

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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2004, 12:47:55 PM »
A number I have heard is that in general (for both Bow and gun) a double lung shot (assuming the righ gun/ load)will disable an animal in 10 -15 seconds How far can a whitetail run in that time even if it is mortally wounded.  

As long as you had a good blood trail and the deer is dead when you get there I don't think 60 yards is that far. But then where I hunt I tend to have a good space between me and the next guy.  Like every one I do have to worry about the next property though.  

I don't have any experience with the 45/70 but what jph45 says about a softer bullet maybe in order. And to be honest I am in the same sort of predicament with my 338 either too big of a hole or too little.  Finding that right bullet can be frustrating.
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Offline Wlscott

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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2004, 12:48:10 PM »
Quote
Seems like everyone's interested in having them animals fall right on the spot. Can't track?


Yes Joel, I am interested in dropping an animal as quickly as possible.....And Yes Joel, I can track.  But I can't track an animal that jumps a fence onto someones property that won't let me go get it.

I wanted to use a 45-70 because I had heard that a shoulder shot wouldn't ruin a lot of meat, but since you're breaking one or both shoulders, you have a dead deer within feet of where it was shot.
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Offline Ditchdigger

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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2004, 02:47:24 PM »
Wlscot;I'm with you on the tracking, I get enough of that in bow season. And yes I can track very well myself,be part Creek Indian,and hunting in N.M. with Mescalero Apache's I've got it down pretty pat. The bad part of where I hunt is the very large briar thickets,the lake,and the river. They don't have to run far to be in either one of the above. Since I hunt by myself most of the time, its no fun trailing a 400 pd. boar through drift logs loaded with water moccasins,thickets a dog cant go through,and its almost dark with a possible non dead,very angry boar just ahead of you. I may lose a little meat,but with a baseball size exit hole, it tends to take the fight out of them.  Digger
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Offline Mac11700

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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2004, 07:15:06 PM »
On the physiology subject...I've seen a study on the incapasitation of game animals by gunshot...done in Illinois a few years back...their train of thought pointed towards the circulartory system (blood pressure) and the amount of pressure increase of the heart muscles when a high velocity bullet enters the chest cavity...basiclly if their study pointed towards when the heart was pumping the hardest and the bullet entered it increased the static pressure within the heart overloading the CNS and rupturing many blood vessels in and around the heart...and it didn't take a-lot on some of the animals ...and some did...my guess would be we will always run into a one who just doesn't want to lay down as fast...

Mac
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Offline Cottonwood

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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2004, 01:25:21 AM »
Have you ever noticed.... you shoot a buck that is not in rut, they drop almost on the spot, but during the rut in allot of cases they need a second shot.  I have never had this problem with does.... why is that  8)