Seems like everyone's interested in having them animals fall right on the spot. Can't track? I've shot deer with a 6mm loaded with 100 gr Noslers at 3200 fps(17 of those), with an 8 X 57 Mauser with Max loads using 150 and 170 grs, 30-40 Krag with 180's at 2400fps, 22 with the 45/70 using 300 gr bullets going anywhere from 2200 fps to around 1660 fps in factory loads; and my last two with the 400 gr Speer traveling at 1750 fps. Oh yeah, my first deer was with my Uncle's 20 guage Mossberg and a forster type slug. Out of all those deer shot, and the range NEVER exceeded 125 yds(and that only once). The only deer that fell in their tracks were spine shot(as someone else posted). I have however seen deer shot with 270's and 300 Winchesters that DID drop in their tracks, but the results were disgusting. Yet the people who shot them like that were proud of what had happened. I can only shake my head. Easy enough to drop them like that when the whole front of the deer is destroyed. My rationale for moving away from the higher speed calibers I used to the 45/70 was to find a caliber that would punch a large hole(including some expansion) that would just about guarantee a relatively quick death IF the animal was hit properly, and to honor that animal by making as much use of it as possible. From what I've read on the subject, an animal can have it's heart and lungs destroyed but will continue to run as long as the brain still has oxygen....unless massive hemmoraging (read bloodshot meat) occurs. About 30 seconds worth. I do agree that any bullet used should expand somewhat(except obviously massive/tough animals on the order of elephant/rhino etc), in order to make the animal's death occur as soon as possible. I've no idea what the term "humane kill" means.....I would assume the only humane shot is one to the brain, where the animal's consciousness is destroyed. From my own experience over the years, I've seen deer run with literally parts of the lungs laying where the animal was hit, and blood spray eveywhere. Seen them run with shoulders broken etc. Farthest I've ever had a deer run on me using the 45/70 was the last one I shot using 300 gr HP's at 2200 fps. Shot her at about 30 yds as she was crossing a small frozen pond. When I reached the spot where I had hit her, their was lung and blood everywhere on the snow. Figured she only made it to the edge of the pond into the brambles; ended up tracking her for 100 yds where she had run down the mountain(the wrong side of course). Just shot a ten point buck yesterday which I hadn't gotten around to posting yet. The 400 gr Speer FN hit him at about 60 yds(my first offhand shot in years!) high in the lungs, and I watched him run about 30-40 yds before he collapsed....he was dead when I got to him , as they usually are. Same distance, about, as the smaller doe I had shot earlier with the same results. The bullet had performed exactly as the one I mentioned in my previous post about #23. The only deer I"ve ever had to shoot twice were those shot with the 300 gr Barnes semi-spitzers at 2200 fps. They were both shot at close range....both exited the animals without ever epanding at all. Both deer ran about 50 yds and lay down and were taking their time dying....hence the second shot. Wrong bullet at the wrong velocity in the wrong animal. I've long ago come to the conlusion that there are hunters and then there are shooters. One hunts, and respects the animal enough to take the responsibilty of getting the max use out of what they kill...and the others talk about "performance" with no regard for the amount of the animal(s) ends up wasted.. Have no idea who is what here, so don't be getting on my butt for that.....don't know ya'll from Adam; it's just what I've seen over the years. To me, the proper caliber for a given animal is the one that kills as quickly as possible without destroying it.....and even then there are variables on top of variables. I'm out of breath now.