Author Topic: 338-06 (Read 2191 times)

quickdtoo · « **Reply #30 on:** December 13, 2004, 06:46:23 PM »

Thanks, Paul...think I gonna check with a smithy about a rechamber to 35 whelen!

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #31 on:** December 14, 2004, 05:20:56 AM »

After seeing the performance of my max on a large white tail this year I would not hesitate to try one on an elk, I f could get closer than 100yrds. Bow hunters do that regularly and I know my max will out perform a bow.
That being said I was gonna present Hawks but Pual beat me to it.

handirifle · « **Reply #32 on:** December 14, 2004, 05:37:34 AM »

badnewsbob
You cannot compare the proformance or effectiveness of an arrow to a bullet.

The razor edges of an arrowhead kill by hemmorage and not shock. In addition, the arrow has 2-4 cutting edges all working together.

A bullet, even a .358 one will do some arterial damabe but most of it's killing power is from shock first than hemmorage from the open wound.

It is not at all unheard of for an arrow to pass through the deer or elk, leaving a massive wound channel to bleed out. Bullets, on the otherhand do not always pass through. A hunting buddies 270 never passed through a cow elk 2 years ago. One hit to the neck and one to the liver. The liver shot made mush inside, but no exit.

Compare the 357max to other calibers for a better idea of what to expect.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #33 on:** December 14, 2004, 05:49:52 AM »

I agree Handirifle I should have stated penitration , I believe at close range my max will punch right through and get a good wound channel not just shock.

Buckeye · « **Reply #34 on:** December 14, 2004, 07:29:22 AM »

Quickdtoo, Keep us posted.

Buckeye

handirifle · « **Reply #35 on:** December 14, 2004, 07:31:41 AM »

I was just looking at the 2004 Hornady Annual reloading manual (paperback one) and comparing notes.

This is right out of the manual and they are as follows.

Max velocity of 338-06 with 225gr Spire point bullet is 2671 fps using 55gr of BL-C(2) at 62,900 psi.

Now compare that to 300Win Mag with 220gr round nose (bullet nose would not make a difference at the muzzle) Max velocity is 2810fps using 76gr of Retumbo powder

Drop down to the 200gr bullet and the 338-06 gets a max of 2856 using 59.5gr of BL-C(2) and the 300 Win Mag gets max 2962fps using 84gr of retumbo.

With as little as 50fps spread and max of 130fps it's easy to see the 30-06 case is limited by the bullet dia.

Oh, by the way, the 338 Win Mag gets max of 2969fps using a 200gr bullet with over 72gr of powder. That's little over 100fps diff from a 338- Win Mag with a lot less powder and less recoil.

The 338 looks better all the time. I might have to re-think my idea of that as opposed to the current 375 project.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #36 on:** December 14, 2004, 07:44:46 AM »

Handirifle....

That's the whole idea behind it... :wink:

Mac

5 handi's + · « **Reply #37 on:** December 14, 2004, 12:50:13 PM »

Well after talking to the gunsmith via e-mail I think i will make things a little more interesting how about a 338 -280 improved.
all the benifits plus a chance to use improved cases.uses a litlle more powder but ther is an velocity gain and a thrust issue that I dont fully understand (less ) I think the shoulder angle acts more like a bench rest case alowing closer head space.should be exstremely acurate.
Johnnie
P.S. and this sure enough is a wildcat.

Fred M · « **Reply #38 on:** December 14, 2004, 01:43:04 PM »

5 handi's +.
With a Handi it is best to keep it simple. That is 338-06.

The 338-280AI is fine cartridge if you were using a bolt action. The Handis have a springy action and unless you have a constant .003 headspace you will have trouble fully closing your gun.

Each time you fire a round the case will expand or stretch to fill the chamber and each time you reload the case you need to set the shoulder back the .003 plus whatever stretch you have, maybe one or two thou depending how much your latch can stand or how much it will slide.

So an AI case in that environment does not last any longer than a standard case 8-10 times max. Then you have to make a new batch and fire form again, and fire forming is not just a one shot effort most of the time.

There is absolutely no truth to the less thrust theory in AI cases. Read Nov/04 Precision Shooting Magazine. The article is called "Ackley's Mistake" a very scientific investigation. If you want to save yourself some hassle, expand the necks of the the 06 cases and shoot, no fire forming, just shoot them. Full length size them each time.

I love wildcats and the 338-280AI is a fine one. I am having a 223 rebored and would love to make a 25 wildcat but for the above reason I stay with a standard round the 257 Roberts later if I want I can still make it into a 25-06.

I have a 25-06 Ultra and have learned a lot about the way this rifle operates. One thing for sure it does not like hot loads. But then with so much powder in an 06 case, there is no need for hot loads. The canon balls you hurl out of a 338-06 don't need much extra juice.

5 handi's + · « **Reply #39 on:** December 14, 2004, 01:57:51 PM »

Thanks fred ,
Like I said dont know much about thrust in the handi sounded good at the time . I guees all the factories would have gone to the improved case if it were better?

less stretch is better!!!
By the way I have noticed over the years that my 308 dosent like neck sized cases the action dosent want to close on them I gues this is the action spring you are talking about. I went to full length sizing a few years back and no more problem.
Its all making sense now. Thanks for all the replies I have learned a lot in a short time.338 -06 it is even if it isnt a wild cat it stil makes a lot of sense to me. and if a 35 whelen comes along at a good price well ill get one of those too.cant have enough handi's
Johnnie

handirifle · « **Reply #40 on:** December 14, 2004, 02:11:50 PM »

Interesting note there Fred, it goes against all we've heard on the straight wall case idea. Is that magazine online? I'd like to read that.

What is the diff between the 280 an '06 case? Why not 338-06AI instead?

5 handi's
Who was the smith you talked too? Is he the original one you quoted?

Fred M · « **Reply #41 on:** December 14, 2004, 02:36:57 PM »

5 handi's +

Quote

I guees all the factories would have gone to the improved case if it were better? less stretch is better!!!

Not quite right. The big reason is cost. The steep shouldered cases require a lot more operations in drawing and annealing and produce a lot of scrap cases. The nato 7.62 was first tested with a 300 Sav case with a modified neck. It produced 17% scrap and multi malfunctions in machine guns, hence we have a 7.62 Nato (308 Win) with a 20 deg shoulder.

Not the best shape for handloading but is plentiful so who cares. Just use it as is. All military calibers follow in line with the sloping shoulders for fully automatic weapons.

The ammo makers have found a new way to make steep necks ala WSSM.
Using softer inferior brass and cover up their sins with nickel plating.
I have been shot down on that theory by lovers of the nickel plated brass.
That is OK by me I am not using nickel plated brass.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 14, 2004, 06:31:03 PM »

The shoulder is moved forward a little on the 280 to keep from chambering it in closely related chamberings.

handirifle · « **Reply #43 on:** December 15, 2004, 04:29:18 AM »

After looking over the manuals and comparing various calibers using the same case, it seems to me that the most effecient case out there is the 30-06, but not in .308. It seems WAAAY more effecient using .338 dia bullets.

Fred M · « **Reply #44 on:** December 15, 2004, 05:44:09 AM »

Handirifle.

Quote

Interesting note there Fred, it goes against all we've heard on the straight wall case idea. Is that magazine online? I'd like to read that.

What is the diff between the 280 an '06 case? Why not 338-06AI instead?

The fallacy of less back trust in AI chambering is actually quite well known for a long time by wildcatters and precision shooters. Dig up some of my earlier posts on this subject.

You can order that magazine from
Precision Shooting
222 McKee St
Manchester CT
06040
Ph 860 645-8776
Fax 860 643-8215

No the magazine is not on line, but the have a web site

www.precisionshooting.com

Cost $3.85 Volume 52 No7 November 2004. They might even send you a free copy.

The 280 case is 46Thou longer than the 06 at 2.540 the 06 is 2.494". Shoulder is 49 thou further forward and the neck is 49 thou shorter on the 280.

By blowing out the 280 and shorten the neck the volume will greatly increase. Such a case like the 338 Parr will equal the 338 win mag in power. This is not Handi fodder.

5 handi's + · « **Reply #45 on:** December 17, 2004, 02:53:06 PM »

the reson the smith sugested the improved are these . as he told me .
when chambering on an existing chamber to get the proper specs for the improved chamber you either have to set back the barel or use the 06 barrel and chamber to 280. as the improved chambers are shorter than the parent cartrige. he also asked if the 280 was a factory chambering and said that as long as the factory level ofthe parent round was not excedded that the action so chambered would handle the cartrige.
this makes sense to me . one thing that was interesting to me was the specs for 338-06 case in my reloading manual show a shorter chamber
this is what spered thge intrest in the improved case to maybe solve a potential problem up front. my theorie is that most rifles in this caliber are custom jobs that were either set back and rechambered with tight chambers. or smiths cut chambers short so an 06 case doesent get in the mix some how. much like the 280 is longer.
I have talked 2 three smiths that will do the work . they are
Redmans at 350 .00
Dan Peterson ( recomended by cliff Labounty ) 260.00
Norman Johnson under 200
all have said simalar things with the exceptin of Norman who says ther isint much diference in the two in the real world.
I talked in great deal with redman , Dan and cliff they all were very sharp but the guy who impressed me the most was Dan . he has alot of exsperience with this process has done handis in the past. and also has chambered and worked with this cartridge .
only problem I am having now is finding a stainles handy in 06 went in today to buy one and ther hasnt been one in the system all year.
Johnnie

Mac11700 · « **Reply #46 on:** December 17, 2004, 03:26:21 PM »

Quote from: 5 handi's +

the reson the smith sugested the improved are these . as he told me .
when chambering on an existing chamber to get the proper specs for the improved chamber you either have to set back the barel or use the 06 barrel and chamber to 280. as the improved chambers are shorter than the parent cartrige. he also asked if the 280 was a factory chambering and said that as long as the factory level ofthe parent round was not excedded that the action so chambered would handle the cartrige.
this makes sense to me . one thing that was interesting to me was the specs for 338-06 case in my reloading manual show a shorter chamber
this is what spered thge intrest in the improved case to maybe solve a potential problem up front. my theorie is that most rifles in this caliber are custom jobs that were either set back and rechambered with tight chambers. or smiths cut chambers short so an 06 case doesent get in the mix some how. much like the 280 is longer.
I have talked 2 three smiths that will do the work . they are
Redmans at 350 .00
Dan Peterson ( recomended by cliff Labounty ) 260.00
Norman Johnson under 200
all have said simalar things with the exceptin of Norman who says ther isint much diference in the two in the real world.
I talked in great deal with redman , Dan and cliff they all were very sharp but the guy who impressed me the most was Dan . he has alot of exsperience with this process has done handis in the past. and also has chambered and worked with this cartridge .
only problem I am having now is finding a stainles handy in 06 went in today to buy one and ther hasnt been one in the system all year.
Johnnie

Basiclly were on the same page on this one.....it's simalar as turning a 308 into a 30-06AI and that's what I've been told repeatedly by some very good knowledgable smiths...and... it's been recommmended not to load over the parent cases heaviest loadings for the Handi...and in all reality...I don't honestly believe you would have to...the chamber has to be cut so you can have a (very tight) fit...(won't use the old wildcat saying here on this...) at least +0.003"to +0.004" mininum,if your wanting to use factory loads for fireforming...and you can have the necks cut tight if you want to turn them...or..nominal SAAMI specs...also you can have it cut to fit any paticular bullet you want to shoot...don't want to use 200-220 grainers...fine...have it from the get go cut that way...lots of options,if you have the time & money to spend ..........

Mac

Mac