Did some comparing on the .500 S&W cartridge

[single shot shooter]

I did some handload comparing on the .500 vs. the 45-70

keep in mind that the 45-70 has a 14" barrel and the .500 has an 8" barrel

the .500 has a 325 grn bullet and the 45-70 has a 300 grn bullet. the hottest 45-70 load is 1750 fps. the hottest load for a .500 is 1862 fps (with a 25 grn heavier bullet you still get a 112 fps gain )

the .500 has a 350 grn bullet as well as the 45-70. the hottest load for a 45-70 is 1650 fps and the hottest load for a .500 is  1783 (a 133 fps gain)

with a  400 grain bullet in each caliber the hottest load for a 45-70 is 1510 fps the hottest load for a .500 is 1633 fps (a 123 fps gain)

now here is a a real good example the hottest load for a 45-70 with a 405 grn bullet is 1500 fps the hottest load for a .500 is 1654 fps with a 440 grn bullet!  that is a  154 fps gain with a 6" shorter barrel and a 35 grn heavier bullet!

all of these results were tested from a T/C contender  45-70 with 14" barrel  the .500 loads were tested from an 8" S&W model 500.

Now just imagine if the .500 had been a 14" barrel too, it probly would have left the 45-70 in the dust.

Not only do you have an increase in velocity but in some cases you have a heavier bullet, and in all cases your starting out with a larger diameter bullet from the get go.

I cant wait for the .500 handi to come out, should be a real meat gun. would be a great hog gun too. hopefully ruger will bring thier semi auto or bolt action out in the .500. would be good for ground hunting hogs, in case you shot one and it's buddy got p!ssed at you and decided to grind you into the dust, you could stop him.

just what i have found in comparison on the .500 vs. the 45-70

[ebonitekid767]

I personally dont think the .500 will last long in the Handi rifle line...just my 2 cents.OHHH and it costs 40 dollars for a box of ammo.

just dont think its gonna grab enough attention

[single shot shooter]

I think it will cath on but if it dont it will be because of the ammo prices.

[quickdtoo]

I think you're gonna find the 500S&W is maxed out in it's loads where the .45-70 still has room to grow. And the SD and BC advantage of the .458 bullets will be an advantage beyond pistol ranges for which the 500S&W is intended for. Now the potential for rechambering to 50-70 or 50 Alaskan is at least a step in the right direction! We have a .50 cal bore to work with!

the .500 has a 350 grn bullet as well as the 45-70. the hottest load for a 45-70 is 1650 fps and the hottest load for a .500 is 1783 (a 133 fps gain)

I certainly don't see the hottest 350gr load for the 45-70 as 1650, but more like 2300fps according to my load books. The 500S&W case couldn't possibly hold enough powder to equal that or even close to it if barrel lengths were comparable.

[handirifle]

SSS
Just for the record, the 500 S&W is loaded especially for pistol barrels and the 45-70, while it may have pistol data is NOT a pistol cartridge.  If you look up rifle velocities in a handi between the two, I think the 45-70 will outshine the 500, why?

The Handi can easily take the Marlin levels of 45-70 loadings and while the 500 might run neck and neck in short barrels, I guarantee you it will not in a 22" barrel.  I have shot 2000fps 400gr loads from an H&R and still below the max charge.  The 500 might now gain that much velocity in a longer barrel since it is more than likely using a very fast burning powder to get those velocities from an 8" pistol.

The 500 has to do its work at MUCH higher pressures than the 45-70 as well, which translates to longer lasting guns.  Inmy mind the 400gr .458 will penetrate better as well, due to better SD of the bullet.

In my mind the 50 would make a better levergun roundthan singleshot due to shorter lever throw, but that's my opinion.

[Graybeard]

Buffalo Bore a commercial source of new factory made ammo sells the following for the .45-70.

430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)

405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)

350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3427 ft. lbs.)

500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)

Compare that to the .500 Short and Weak

[quickdtoo]

FWIW, max loads for the .45-70 in a 15" barrel under pistol data in Hodgdon's 2004 annual shows the 300gr sierra at 2076fps and that is at less than 28000 cup. The 500 S&W 10" barrel shows the 275gr max load at 2137fps, but at 50,800psi. There's no direct correlation of CUP and PSI, but OTOH, there certainly is a big difference in pressure twix the two.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

[quickdtoo]

500 short and weak!

 :eek:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :wink:
I think Graybeard hit that one squarely on the head!!! :wink:

[Buckeye]

The 500 S&W will sell,I'm buying one . BUT for a project gun ,50 Alaskan or a 50 /110, or something like that.
The 500 S&W is a Handful itself ,but it is a high pressure round and is suited for the lighter side of the 50 cal. bullets,but in lengthing the cartridge like a 50/110 ,it'll better handle the heavier(longer) bullets.
 But it'll never replace the 45/70,no way.

Buckeye

[JPH45]

I think most 500 S&W Handi's are going to become 50-70's, 50-90's and such. In it's factory trim, the 500 is simply a 45-70 in a handgun and it won't get much better from there, I would be surprised to see the 500 gain 40 fps per inch of added barrel, after 16" I imagine it will be more like 25 fps, there is simply too much expansion ratio in that 50 cal for that short case to make up for.

The 45-70 in the Handi is a tough combination to beat, but if nothing else, hte 500 is novel, I just don't see it doing anything the 45-70 won't.

A 454Casuelhambering would make more sense, one can get trapdoor level performance from it and shoot 45 LC through it as well. There is a plethora of .452 components available, everything from 230 grain hardball to 325 grain hunting bullets. I dont know where you can't get 45LC cases, and in the event of the absence of Casuel cases one can still get 44 Mag performance from the LC case. Leave it to sales personel to make a numbskull decision like the 500 in a Handi.

[brown-trout]

the 500 s/w aint gonna run away from the 45-70....if you compare the 500 to the wek sister , trap door loads....sure......
But loaded like it oughta be...No Way.
....as with car engines , there aint no substitute for cubic inches, and  a volume to volume comparo shows the 45-70 way ahead.

the 500 s/w primary market is for those wishing to keep up with the jones'

just my 2 cents BT[/i]

[single shot shooter]

i wasnt sayin the .500 is a better cartridge, just it would be a better cartridge for what i'm going to use it for.

[Cottonwood]

I tried to see if at Reloading Bench Cartridge Specs if they had a blow up of the .500 S&W cartridge to compare to the 50-70, 50-90 etc cases.  If the boolit diamiter of the .500 is the same as that of the .511 used for the 50-70 and 50-90 then the only work I can see is for the rimmed cartridges vs the rimless IF the .500 S&W is rimless like a 45 ACP is.  The extractor would have to be changed as well.  Then last but not least, what is the barrel twist of the .500 S&W gonna be.

If its a 1:24 or 1:26 there may not be much of a problem getting it to shoot properly in 50-70 or 50-90 with a 650-gr boolit  :lol:

[quickdtoo]

You mean like this??? :lol:

[Cottonwood]

Yes that is it, here is the 50-70 Govt thank you now I can post the differance

[Lone Star]

You cannot rechamber the .500 to the .50-70 or .50-90, etc. because the bullet diameters are 'way different - 0.015" or about the difference between the .41 Magnum and the .44 Magnum.  Even using cast bullets sized down (usually removing most of the lube grooves) the load data will be different.  And without a custom reamer the chamber neck will be 'way too big, so expect short case life.  Then add in the custom die set......$$$.  Nope, the .500s will remain .500s, which may not be such a bad thing.

[Cottonwood]

That was the whole purpose behind getting the examples posted.  Only goes to show you can't make no race horse out of a donkey  :-D

[Cottonwood]

Now here is the specs for the 50 Alaskan just in case some are thinking what about the.....

[borg1]

what is recoil energy and velocity of the .500 SW and the 45/70?

[S.B.]

I personally dont think the .500 will last long in the Handi rifle line...just my 2 cents.OHHH and it costs 40 dollars for a box of ammo.

just dont think its gonna grab enough attention

Not for an experienced handloader.

[borg1]

Exactly.  A handloader can produce 20 loads for ~ 60 cents!   :eek:

That's about a third of the cost of factory loads.

[Doubletap]

The biggest problem with the .500 Smith or for that matter, the 50 AE, is that of sectional density.  300 gr.s of bullet sounds like a lot, but when it's got a cross section of.500" it's darn stubby, not far from a round ball.  The 45--70 (or 90, 110, etc.) gets it's great reputation as a killer of big game from the sectional density, which with bullets of equal constructin always equates to better penetration.  
  As for rechambering .500 Handi's to any rifle cartridge, forget it.  They all have bores of .510 or larger, with the exception of a couple long obsolete nitro for black rounds like the 577/500 Express, which has a .500 nomial bullet diameter.   If a fella has a Smith in .500, why heck he should own a Handi in the same calibre.  Can't see a real demand for the cartridge in and of itself.  Ammo is really high for what it is, not formable from another case, jacketed bullets are plenty stiff in price, and there aren't a lot of heavy bullet moulds for it yet.  
  Me?  I'm still holding out for a 405 Winney barrel.  Sectional density and velocity all in one neat package.

[Buckeye]

405 Win. is a ballistic twin to the 444 Marlin. There very close. I like the ole 45/70.