Author Topic: Need A Draft ????  (Read 1320 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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Need A Draft ????
« on: December 13, 2004, 12:09:55 AM »
Who besides me would welcome the draft back? If you agree or disagree please give reasons for your opinion.
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TEXAS, by GOD

Offline mjbgalt

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2004, 02:42:13 AM »
no draft. mainly because our country is founded on freedom and forcing people to fight for their country is the epitome of NOT being free. besides that, who do you think will fight harder? someone who wants to be in war and signed up, or someone who is basically the army's indentured servant?

-Matt
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Offline Graybeard

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2004, 02:48:03 AM »
The draft worked pretty darn well for a long long time. We won a buncha wars with draftees. With the way kids are going these days it seems to me the draft and a tour or two would do a lot of them a whole buncha good. Might get more out of drugs or keep them out. I'm sure the youth who would be affected wouldn't be too happy to see it return.

Still over all I guess I'm of the opinion the current volunteer system might be most effective for the government. Folks tend to stay in longer if volunteers and training costs are really high. But I think it would do the country the most good to reinstate it to get some of those off the streets and into the military and maybe keep them away from drugs and lives of crime.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline magooch

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2004, 03:04:23 AM »
It is my opinion that a draft is not called for, for many reasons.  I'm not going to list them all, but number one is that a modern military must be highly trained professionals.  It would never be possible or desirable to draft people for long enough terms to afford the amount of training that is needed to produce the specialized forces we need.

What we need much worse than a draft is the will of our leaders to conduct war with the most efficient and lethal weapons that we have;if we are not willing to commit to all-out war, then maybe the war is not justified.  The Commander in Chief should always proceed into war with the concept that every living soul in the country or region of our enemy shall be expendable before a single American G.I. will be put at undue risk.  In other words, bomb the bastards off the face of the earth.
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Offline huntsman

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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2004, 04:21:42 AM »
If you were a front-line soldier, would you really want to go into combat partnered with 19-year-olds coming straight off the street, possibly with decadent backgrounds? As an American, is this who you want on the front line defending our freedom and representing our values to the rest of the world?

Yes, we had a draft for many years, and it worked BACK WHEN MOST KIDS WERE TAUGHT VALUES AND RESPECT FROM INFANCY. If you have been in a public school or around kids much these days, you know those days are gone forever. As soon as the moral fabric of America began to unravel, our drafted forces were a disaster (Viet Nam), partly because of a lack of self-discipline and moral character in a significant portion (not all or a majority) of the troops.

Our volunteer forces, on the other hand, have served admirably and effectively from day one, at least when command and control was operating with any kind of efficiency. In the age of modern warfare, what's needed in personnel is quality over quantity. The tools of war are far more complicated, expensive, and deadly than in bygone eras when a street kid could be easily trained to march, shoot, and fire a rifle.

I agree that boot camp and two or three years of a strictly-controlled environment would do wonders for the hundreds of thousands of our youth who are growing up in a slanderously immoral and ungrounded society. I don't agree that our national military is the place for these youth in this day and age. I think we need a "peace corps" right here at home, where kids can be transformed in a remote martial-type setting and trained to take back their neighborhoods that have fallen into decay and decadence. The economic benefit alone would more than pay for what it might cost, and there is no way to measure the tremendous benefit of building moral character in our "lost" youth where lacking parents and our out-of-control, corrupt media have failed miserably.

Finally, the military often strips from its members by executive order and military law some of the rights and freedoms (free speech, assembly, due process, trial by jury of peers, I could go on) ensured by the Constitution. I find it glaringly ironic that a our democracy has always been defended by an authorized martial autocracy within. This is in some ways necessary, but no person should be forced to forgo their Constitutional rights unless they do so voluntarily.
There is no more humbling experience for man than to be fully immersed in nature's artistry.

Offline fe352v8

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2004, 09:32:56 AM »
I think we should have compulsulory national service either military or civilian.  I was a decadent youth in 1969, working on being a third semester freshman and partying my brains, and at times, stomach contents out.  I was US Army not regular.  The Army instilled discipline and responsibility in me, it to taught me to that when given a mission or faced with a challenge to accept it and complete it.  The GI Bill put me through college and helped me buy a house.

People today do not feel an obligation to serve.  My grand father was a grunt in WW I, my father a belly gunner in WW II, and I was a grunt.  My son is a Marine and he's a grunt and the only volunteer, the rest of us were unskilled, untrained, uneducated, and unwilling, but four generations knew that you owe an obligation to your country.  Arm chair patriots make me sick.  On my block there is only one other veteran.  My youngest sons high school had a support the troops program, they asked the veterans to stand there were only a handful of us out of over six hundred people in attendance.  The median household income of those entering the service is $30,000 a dispropotionate number of those serving are minorities.  When I meet people that think this war is a great idea, I ask them when they or their children are signing up.  There is only one member of congress who has had a child in this mess.  If "W" thinks this is great when do Babs an Jen go.  Maybe they can join the Guard, and then get time off to work on a family friends campagne.  Would politicians go off on these adventures if everyone had an equal stake in it?  Would you send your child or grand child?  vietnam taught me that war should ALWAYS be a last resort, and if one choose to fight it should be done with totality and finality.  The day after we leave Iraq, it will look like Iran and 35 years from now my son will ask himself what the hell was this all for.
life is no joke but funny things happen

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Offline Shorty

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2004, 03:20:22 PM »
The draft is only good if we need lots and lots of warm bodies to fill boots in a huge land war, such as WWII.  We aren't likely to have such a need again (I hope).  
Still, I've known many draft-dodgers who, today when veterans are revered, think that maybe they missed something.  Easier said today than in 1969!
 :roll:

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2004, 03:37:07 PM »
Through the history of this country back to the 17th century my ancestors have been "Drafted" up through me,and my cousins and the best soldiers--those that have defended the homeland and won the wars were the Draftee and don't let anybody tell you different.I  was King I would have every High school grad ,male and female serve two years for the Government in the Armed or unarmed forces before they could go to college or get married-the reason is self evident.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline mjbgalt

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2004, 04:02:11 PM »
you guys are missing the point of freedom. the idea is NOT "we should all be free unless i was in charge" or "we should be totally free EXCEPT."

to be truly free you must have true freedom, you cant make it SOMEWHAT free, or encourage government control through govt indenture.

you guys who think we should all be free, are the ones who are saying you vote for freedom and then "if i was in charge i would make people do this"

cmon.

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline Graybeard

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2004, 06:54:46 PM »
Freedom IS NOT FREE! It is paid for with a high price. Without some paying that price there would be no freedom. If you aren't willing to defend it when the time comes then you really do not deserve it.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2004, 10:58:03 PM »
Too counter one---Our troops in Viet Nam were a class act (in every conflict there are exceptions) so I would disagree with that thought.
Too disagree again--Who do you think IS involved in this conflict. We do not have enough men to engage in a very small conflict like this one. Who is supplying our troops, who is doing the maintenance, who is cooking. Well my rant is obvious. We do not have enough folks to fight our way out of a wet paper bag.
And again-Yes I would be proud to go into combat with a 19 year old decadent, Heck he is going in with one.
I could go on down the list. I do not care if you are against a draft folks, Just think and use your heads, the reasons you folks are using are non-thinking and could not be used in a debate--a stand-up comedy routine- maybe, and only maybe. Give some GOOD, STABLE, DEFENSIBLE thought to your answer.
HUFF-PUFF--Gotta go smoke a cig.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline mjbgalt

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2004, 02:22:53 AM »
graybeard, youre totally right. its NOT free and it shouldnt be. BUT you cannot procure freedom through the lack thereof. thats like buying a christmas present for your wife if you stole the money. lol

the whole system has to work the same, is what i am getting at. why buy freedom with mandatory service?

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline Graybeard

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2004, 02:36:53 AM »
Matt to me it sounds like you're a young man who's afraid he might be drafted if reinstated. This country has run on mandatory draft for service since its inception until fairly recent times. Sure seemed to work just fine all those years. No one felt they were giving up their freedom in having to serve their country. Not everyone is called anyway.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2004, 04:55:26 AM »
One thing I object to when discussing an all volunteer military is the ability to have enough reserve to call on should an emergency occur. We found ourownselves in such a situation before WWII. We had the time then to resolve the problem. Under todays technology we only have hours.
A standing military has many benifits. It circulates the responsibility thru the general population. It creates a backbone of qualified and trained people. It avoids the real possibility of a military which has at it's disposal a group of professionals disposed to the leadership at their command against the general populate.
It prevents KBR type abuses. It prevents private armies.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline bgjohn

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Universal military service?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2004, 04:59:48 AM »
How about universal military service. For men AND women.
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2004, 05:01:58 AM »
In todays climate you would have need to assume this position.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline IntrepidWizard

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2004, 05:57:46 AM »
John,what does Universal Draft mean to you?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline bgjohn

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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2004, 07:56:51 AM »
Quote from: IntrepidWizard
John,what does Universal Draft mean to you?


It means that EVERYBODY would be drafted into some type of military or community service.
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2004, 11:02:55 AM »
Well we got an idea like that started on part two. Hate to throw this thought into complete turmoil. But we is good at turmoil boys.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline mjbgalt

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2004, 12:00:02 PM »
no sir, Graybeard. If called i would honorably serve my country, which i love deeply.

i just think that the idea in general is thw wrong answer to the question.

the question is how do we protect our country. and the answer is what we have had lately, the volunteers. we have kicked the holy crap out of every other fighting force we have lined up against since vietnam with those volunteers and i see no reason to 1) change a good thing and 2) force people do something they might not agree with.

thats all.

i see how ya are, callin me out.  :wink:

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2004, 12:14:11 PM »
i do resent the implication, as i said nothing to give anyone the idea i wouldnt love to fight for my fellow men or my country. no one else's patriotism is being challenged here but mine. i would appreciate if comments like that were to stop.

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline mjbgalt

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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2004, 12:37:01 PM »
someone said earlier that it could help kids. i do agree there however. we need to get them off their asses and off drugs and out of jail...did you guys in the 60s and 70s see that kind of improvement from the kids who did go to war through the draft?
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Offline kapnkid

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2004, 03:51:32 PM »
Not that I expect to change anyone's mind on this matter  :?

Drafting someone to fight or do other service is nothing short of slavery. You can rationalize it all you want, with fighting drug addiction, getting them off their asses, insert b+!!$}{?# reason here. When the state owns you, you are not free. What is complicated about that? If the state wants good soldiers let it offer something of value. Let it offer money, retirement, health care, and raise their kids if they get killed. If it can't offer anything of value, then maybe it's time to change our form of government.  Maybe you could even make service in the military a requirement to vote or serve in the government, but make it a choice.  If we force labor we are not any different from a feudal lord forcing his serfs to pick up a spear and march to battle.  The Lords in the feudal system owed their place of power to their superiors. They had to deliver men, food and other supplies to their superiors or they lost power.  Today we are taxed by our 'superior', the government. If we don't pay the tax, someone, with a gun, will come and get your valuables. You may think I'm generalizing, but name one thing of value that you can keep if you don't pay taxes on it. The only change we need to be just like the feudal system is forced labor, and a restriction on travel. Anybody bought a plane ride lately?

This doesn't even address the preferential treatment the elite get in military service, or how many extra unpopular  chores the government could find to occupy all that 'ready labor'.  If you are drafting soldiers, you won't be forced to pay them much, so the better qualified won't stay and make a career of it, as they do now. If they do start a draft, I suggest they start with the 60-50 age group first, after all we are so smart, and we got ourselves into what ever mess needs rectifying, and at least our kids will remember us.

Offline bgjohn

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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2004, 04:14:32 PM »
They don't want us old farts. We can't cut the mustard. They want the youngsters who think they are invincible. If we have the foreign policy that we have we will make enemies. Unfortunately both political parties have similar aims. If you want to be friends with Isreal the Arabs won't like us. But remember who has the oil.
JM
I know nothing. I am only a messenger.

Offline mjbgalt

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2004, 04:57:02 PM »
heh heh...looks like someone has a little bit of an opinion on the subject.

i am glad all view points are getting aired out....its cool to see how each guy perceives this subject.

i thought i was alone in my ideas until someone showed me a libertarian web site and i went "ohhhhhh there ARE people who think like me."

its so nice to have a site where we can voice our opinions and see other people's ideas and be free to do and think what we want.

isnt it nice to be talking about how best to protect our country and not how best to fix the horrible damage terrorists are doing to us everyday? i think that shows us how good our military is already. just the fact that we havent had a successful attack since 2001 and that we are stomping the crap out of the terrorists.

draft or no draft, we have the best fighting force in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD. thats pretty damn impressive.

-Matt
I have it on good authority that the telepromter is writing a stern letter.

Offline williamlayton

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2004, 10:19:31 PM »
I think those opposed to the draft need to take a step back, take a deep breath and think.
This draft business is not about what it WILL do for an individual, though that is possible a side benefit. It is ALL about what it will do for this Nation and what it can prevent, if, used correctly. That is another topic boys. stick to the discussion topic boys, do not go chasing rabbits.
The Draft will prevent private armies, promote peace thru a sound standing military, and make this nation safer.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline El Confederado

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2004, 11:05:05 AM »
If it means fighting wars like they should be fought and letting the military call the shots, then I am in favor of a draft system of some sort.
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Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2004, 12:54:26 PM »
Well the  President is commander-in- chief.
On that note I would agree there is a need  to have some checks and balances before deploying troops. I also believe it is unwise to let the military decide who and when we do this. Just doan trust a military government boys.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline kapnkid

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2004, 03:48:48 PM »
Some of you might be interested in Fred's Opinion on
War's Other Price
http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

I disagree with Fred on some things, but he does make you think.

Offline Will Bison

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Need A Draft ????
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2004, 10:48:52 AM »
I served from '63 to '97 and often the draft idea got kicked around.

Military service is a great experience for those who are qualified to serve. As a military professional, I don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry off the street in my command. Under current criteria only the best are accepted in the military. The elimination rate at the local recruiting level is enormous, physical disability, over weight, other medical standards, drug history, criminal history, illiteracy, test failure, single parents, security risks, not a US citizen and probably things that don't come to mind right now. Without lowering the standards, most draftees would never be eligible in the first place.

In the first year of service we expect an attrition of about 15% give or take. Some never make it out of basic training, DIS won't give a security clearance, pregnancy, psycological elimination, the list goes on.

In my opinion the cost of a draft program is not worth the return. The elimination rate of draftees is significantly higher than the rate experienced with volunteers. The cost of eliminating a draftee in the first year of service would pay for a piece of field artillery.

I and many of my fellow career officers would oppose any form of conscription.

We have consistently met our recruiting goals since the end of the draft. There have been some shortfalls in certain areas but those have always been mitigated in other areas. We have always been flexible in our accession goals/standards to allow for inconsistencies in the general demographic profile.

Good topic for discussion by the way, glad you all have participated.