Author Topic: Report on .45 Performance (Read 930 times)

poorcountrypreacher · « **on:** December 13, 2004, 04:02:39 PM »

Hello again to all - I visited some here back in the summer and got a lot of good advice on which bullet to use with my Knight .45 Super Disc. I live in AL and had never used a ML until we got a special season beginning in 03. I used the Knight to take one doe the first year, but they legalized scopes for this season and lengthened the season to 5 days, so I wanted to get the best combo possible.

My background was in reloading for CF rifles and my TC Contender, so I wanted to try the same philosophy in ML that I used in developing 7x30 Contender loads - I wanted to shoot a lighter bullet and shoot it as fast as I could. There was an article posted here that some guy had written that pretty much trashed the .45 - said it wasn't adequate for deer and if you just had to use it to stick with heavy bullets at low velocity. I didn't think that was true, but I promised to come back here and admit it if I decided I was wrong.

Well, I'm not admitting I was wrong. I shot 2 does during our special season, and both were killed just as dead as my .308 would have killed them. One was 90 yds and the other was 125. I shot them both high in the shoulder and when the smoke cleared, neither of them even kicked. I was using a Knight 175g Red Hot, which is an all-copper bullet made by Barnes. I was using 3 Pyrodex pellets and muzzle velocity was 2425. This gun shoots 2" 100 yd groups with this load. Bullet performance was about what I would have expected from any premium bullet - good expansion and complete penetration with fairly large exit holes, but not the violent expansion you get from something like a Ballistic Tip.

My uncle that was hunting with me also took 2 deer, one a doe and the other a very nice 8 point. He was using an Omega .50 cal with 250g TC bullets and 2 pellets. Both of his deer ran off and traveled around 75 yds. We were very fortunate to find the buck, as there was no blood trail and we thought he must have missed completely. The doe left a good blood trail and we had no trouble finding her. I'm not saying the .45 is better than the .50; just reporting what happened. The placement of the shot will always be the most important factor regarding how far a deer might travel.

I realize that 2 deer aren't a very large sample, but I am confident that my gun is going to prove to be very effective out to 200 yards or so. Thanks again for all of the help you guys gave me in getting set up. Hunting with a BP gun sure requires a lot more careful preparation and attention to detail than hunting with a CF gun, but if you take the time to do your homework I think you'll find a .45 to be a very efficient deer gun. Good hunting to everyone.

AndyHass · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2004, 05:20:32 PM »

There is one very important factor in muzzleloading that you don't have to really worry about in centerfire...the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. Most rifle bullets have high BC of .5-.8. No ML bullet on the market is much above .300, and most are under .2. What this means is that they shed velocity (and energy) VERY quickly as they go downrange compared to a rifle bullet (which also starts out with more velocity to shed!).
That being said, starting out at 2400 fps it appears you have lethal energy levels out to at least 200 yards, but it is something to keep in mind.
This is why a lot of people like 250 gr bullets in MLs...many of the lighter bullets will not retain enough energy at moderate to long ranges unless they are pushed very, very fast.

poorcountrypreacher · « **Reply #2 on:** December 14, 2004, 05:55:47 PM »

Right you are Andy - I think you pointed that out to me back in the summer. At .216, this bullet is not exactly a Ballistic Tip. But one reason I went with it is that the BC is higher than a Barnes Expander. And the energy is still above 1000 FPS at 200 yds, but just barely. I'd have to have a perfect broadside shot to try one that far, but the truth is that I seldom have a chance to shoot a deer at 200 yds anyway. The Dead Center bullets have better BC's; if our season was longer than 5 days I'd have to give them a try. I might get some before next year and see how they do. Thanks for all your help.

Here's a link that shows Knight's data. I think this chart is very realistic; unlike a lot of factory data I see.

http://images.ebsco.com/pob/knightrifles/catalog/BALLISTICCHART2004.htm

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #3 on:** December 15, 2004, 04:09:19 AM »

I have also been toying with the 45 cal high velocity thing. My quest was for a high BC bullet at fairly high velocity. I turned to .358 rifle bullets designed for the 35 Whelen in MMP .357/45 sabots. The Hornady 180 gr sp designed for single shot pistols has worked very well for me. It is designed to expand at a velocity range consistant with what I should be getting out of a ML. I am still experimenting and I have not chrono'd any of these loads but accuracy is pretty good out of the 1:20 twist barrel on my black diamond XR. I will not advise anyone try this as the bullet is .001 larger than called for and in some bores could cause high pressures, especially with magnum powder charges. In my T/C this combo loads easily so I don't see the .001 being a factor. Bores and many bullets vary by more than .001.

AndyHass · « **Reply #4 on:** December 17, 2004, 05:20:33 AM »

PCP- did you mean 1000 fps or ft-lbs? If you meant ft-lbs, that is plenty of energy to take out a deer...most people use 600-800 as a cut-off with thin-jacketed or lead ML bullets. If you did indeed mean fps I don't know what your ft'lbs would be but I ran a calculation the other day and I remember it was over 800.

Oneshot- Thanks for the information. Do you know what the BC (or at least advertised BC) is on these bullets??

RT8 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 17, 2004, 09:35:34 AM »

Quote from: AndyHass

...the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. Most rifle bullets have high BC of .5-.8...

where did you get that from?
According to Nosler's website, the highest BC they show for any of their partition bullets is .519, and that's a 175 gr 7mm/.284 spitzer.

95% of them have a BC between .375-.475

AndyHass · « **Reply #6 on:** December 17, 2004, 12:29:21 PM »

Quote from: RT8

Quote from: AndyHass
...the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. Most rifle bullets have high BC of .5-.8...

where did you get that from?
According to Nosler's website, the highest BC they show for any of their partition bullets is .519, and that's a 175 gr 7mm/.284 spitzer.

95% of them have a BC between .375-.475

I got that from memory off of Sierra's site. The particular bullets I was looking at WERE in that range. But yes, it appears looking at a few more than my estimate was high. Sorry.

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #7 on:** December 17, 2004, 01:41:38 PM »

Quote from: AndyHass

Oneshot- Thanks for the information. Do you know what the BC (or at least advertised BC) is on these bullets??

The BC for the Hornady is listed at .284, The sierra I'm currently playing with is listed at .387. I'm also looking into some noslers which list around .35-.38. The BC's aren't great on any of these bullets but they are much cheaper than dead centers which are the only ML bullets I'm aware of that approach these BC's. Considering the 180gr XTP has an advertised BC of .182 these bullets I'm toying with are like missles compared to the XTP.

poorcountrypreacher · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2004, 03:37:18 PM »

>>>PCP- did you mean 1000 fps or ft-lbs? If you meant ft-lbs, that is plenty of energy to take out a deer...most people use 600-800 as a cut-off with thin-jacketed or lead ML bullets.<<<

Sorry Andy, that was very poor writing on my part. Yes, I meant ft-lbs of energy. The chart I referenced shows velocity at 200 yds to be 1657 with 1067 FT-LBS of energy. It is actually a shade more as I am getting a little more muzzle velocity than the chart shows.

I've no way of doing any tests to see what is the minimum energy needed for a clean kill on a deer, but 1000 ft-lbs is a figure I've heard tossed out by others. My point was that I think this load in this gun is accurate enough and powerful enough to take a deer at 200 yds in an ethical manner. And that directly conflicts with what that writer said in the article posted here back in the summer.

Good luck.

poorcountrypreacher · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2004, 03:55:31 PM »

I decided to look back and re-read the article I was talking about. It was written by Randy Smith and is part of this thread:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=221184&highlight=#221184

I notice from the replies in the previous thread that a lot of folks here agreed with me then.

Good hunting to all.

slowfog · « **Reply #10 on:** December 28, 2004, 05:55:12 PM »

The .45 cal really get a bad rap and for no reason. I have shot many deer using several Knight .50 using bullet weights ranging from 180gr to 240gr. using powder weights from 100gr to 150 gr. I always had complete pass throughs when the bullet was placed behind the front shoulders. I experinaced the greatest exit holes when using 150gr of 777 and 180 gr. Red hots. I switched to .45 195gr bullets using 150 gr. 777. Both deer I shot this year dropped in there tracks and the bullets did an awsome amount of damage. One was shot at 200 yards, one at 25 yards. Are those deer any less dead than with the .50? I woulld never recommend a 45 for large game because your bullet weights are two small, but for deer .45 are more than adequate. I switched to a .45 for deer because bullets in .45 are longer when comparing similar weights. This means greater accuarcy at smaller bullet weights in the .45. Mya range results have supported this.