444 or 45-70?

[Oklahomahunter]

Just wanting to know what the difference in these two is.  From what I can see there isn't that much.  Does either one have a better accuracy record?  I have also been thinking of a spikehorn.  If I get either one of these it will be in the guidegun configuration.  I am leaning toward the 444 but I don't know why.  I need something for about 150 yards on deer and hogs mainly.  Just wanting some people with some experience to shed a little light on the subject.  Thanks.

OKH

[jackfish]

When loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given bullets of equal sectional density, and similar configuration and construction, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given bullets of equal weight, and similar configuration and construction, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet significantly faster than the 444 Marlin.  Hence, the 45-70 Gov't can shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin and will deliver more energy to the target and recoil to the shooter while doing so.  Each are capable of delivering more than acceptable accuracy.

[Triple4]

If you are buying your ammo over the counter then there is a difference as the 444 is offered from Remington with only a 240gr bullet this works well on deer sized critters, Hornady offers a 265gr load that takes it up a notch or two up to elk size critters, Corbon and Buffalo bullets offers loads that take it even farther up the food chain, but they also cost and kick more.

The 45-70 in over the counter offerings has many more options, lets just say Mild (405gr bullet at 1200fps ) to wild ( 500gr bullets at 1500fps )
and a pile of in-between loads. If you are recoil sensitive then stay away from the wild loads.

If you Handload then they both are very fine cartridges and can take most anything on Gods green Earth.  

Accuracy can be outstanding with either and in the guide gun config
seems to be a tad better then the longer barrel models it can be the 1-20 twist or the short stout barrel or both.

.......................................................................................Triple4

[Mikey]

Oklahomahunter - either will do equally well for your intended purpose.  The only benefit in this regard is the greater availability of adequate 45-70 loads.  Handloads are an entirely different story.  My 444 works perfectly on Elk and Boar and I have no complaints, none, not a single one.  Mikey.

[ONE HOLE 4570]

I have a 444p guide gun & reload for it. Put williams fire sight / peep on it. It will shoot better than I can hold it, once got .75 @100yd using 265 hornady's at 2150fps, also shoots 330gr hard cas gas chk to same spot at 2200fps. Great brush gun for hogs & deer elk etc. All I have shot with it is deer & they do not go far. The ports are LOUD would prefer not to have them & suffer with the recoil. Like they say either one will do fine have a 45-70 so I wanted something different. Whichever you decide on you will enjoy it. :grin:

[TennesseeNuc]

Oklahoma,
Either one should shoot just fine.  You may find that ammo selection and availability will be your deciding factor.
Best,
TnNuc

[NYH1]

Here is my opinion on this! If your gonna use it for deer, black bear, wild boar maybe even elk and that kinda stuff I would go with the 444 Mar. Use either factory ammo or handloads.

If your gonna hunt any of the above mentioned game in the land of the "GRIZ", I would use a 45-70. I would load it as stout as I and/or the gun could handle.

The 444 Mar. shoots a little flatter. Thats mostly because the 444 Mar. usually if not almost always uses a lighter bullet.

I don't think Marlin makes the guide gun in 444 Mar. anymore. You can find a used one or get the regular rifle and have the barrel cut and crowned. I have also heard that Marlin will change the barrel from a ported barrel to a non-ported barrel if you want. I don't know how much they charge for this, if they still do it at all.

I too do not like the "ported barrels" on any gun at all. I get migraine head aches real easy. The noise kills me. I shot my friends 44 mag. pistol with a six inch "ported barrel". I can deal with the noise that comes from the gap between the cylinder and the barrel on a revolvers. I can't handle it from the ports! I wear ear muffs and ear plugs together.

[jackfish]

The 444 Mar. shoots a little flatter. Thats mostly because the 444 Mar. usually if not almost always uses a lighter bullet.

With factory ammo this is probably true, not so when handloading to their potential.

[Triple4]

The 444 Mar. shoots a little flatter. Thats mostly because the 444 Mar. usually if not almost always uses a lighter bullet.

With factory ammo this is probably true, not so when handloading to their potential.

The fact is given the same weight bullet and the same velocties the 444 will always be flatter shooting, thats just Physics....now with the 45-70 shooting a bigger bullet and given enough distance then yes it can shoot flatter, under normal hunting situations handloads or factory it's a very mutt point,  you have to remember that for the .458 bullet to be driven faster then a .430 bullet even at the same weight you must use more powder to achieve it, so now you have a cartridge that has less efficency
and more kick .

[jackfish]

When loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given bullets of equal sectional density, and similar configuration and construction, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given bullets of equal weight, and similar configuration and construction, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't can shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin and will deliver more energy to the target and recoil to the shooter while doing so.

I will concede that equal bullet weights driven the same speed the 444 will shoot "flatter", but if one is talking about potential then the statements above are true.  I also don't know if you can necessarily state that the 444 is more "efficient", as the more powder used to drive the bullet of the same weight faster (or even the same velocity) in the 45-70 results in significantly more momentum.  Its not like the extra powder is going to waste if one has an application for more power.  Hence, it is true that the 45-70 will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 and deliver more power and recoil while doing so.  The upshot is that no animal is going to know the difference when killed by either the 444 or the 45-70.

[Perferator]

The 444 Mar. shoots a little flatter. Thats mostly because the 444 Mar. usually if not almost always uses a lighter bullet.

With factory ammo this is probably true, not so when handloading to their potential.

The fact is given the same weight bullet and the same velocties the 444 will always be flatter shooting, thats just Physics....now with the 45-70 shooting a bigger bullet and given enough distance then yes it can shoot flatter, under normal hunting situations handloads or factory it's a very mutt point,  you have to remember that for the .458 bullet to be driven faster then a .430 bullet even at the same weight you must use more powder to achieve it, so now you have a cartridge that has less efficency
and more kick .

Efficiency?  In a big bore?  Get a .308 Rem700....that's efficiency.

I bought the Guide Gun in 45-70 because there is none like it...anywhere.  You can hunt anything on the planet with it and do it with individuality, syle and POWER.  It's fun to shoot BIG holes in stuff, powderize rocks, cut squirrels in half, cold-cock whitetails and give groundhogs a ride into the next zip code.

I cant tell ya which of the two to select so just save your money and get both. :lol:

However, if you handload....get the 45-70.
               if you DONT handload....get the 45-70.



Perferator

[mr.frosty]

I use my 45/70 more than my 300 wsm and I use factory ammo cause I
dont handload yet. I use 300 grain winchesters and federals right now
but going to try the pmc 350 grain soon.

[victorcharlie]

Mr. Frosty........Let me know if you find someone in East Tennessee that stocks the PMC HA's.  I have the Boys in Benton order them for me.  They are by far the most accurate factory load that I've found in my 1895, but be prepared, they produce much more recoil than the Remingtons.  The limbsaver I had installed made them much more pleasant to shoot.  I didn't think I'd shoot many of them, but they shoot so well, that for the same price as the low velocity Remingtons, I just can't help it!  350 gn Horniday at 2125fps producintg 3000 ft. lbs of energy puts it in the same class as the Garretts, for a third of the price.......should be enough for anything on this continent!

[Jim B.]

I have to admit that, terrific ballistics aside, I love the romance of the .45-70 cartridge.  I get a kick (literally!) out of hunting with the oldest continuously produced metallic cartridge - and knowing I am not undergunned!  Handloading, as others have noted, is where the .45-70 really shines but you can do just fine with handloads.

Jim B. in IN

[Leverdude]

I agree with JimB. I like the old rounds myself & the 45/70 even with the slow old loadings is plenty for whitetails where I hunt.

[NYH1]

In the May 2004 issue of "Shooting Times" Layne Simpson has an article titled "Squeezing Maximum Performance from the .444 Marlin". I can't find the article "on-line" so I can't "cut and paste" it. It pretty impressive. He gets some really good numbers from the 444 Mar. He listed a factory load by Cor-Bon. Its a 280 gr. BCSN bullet. The factory gets 2200 fps out of a 18 inch barrel, he got 2344 fps and 3412 ft. lbs. of energy with his 22 inch barrel. It has 2336 ft. lbs of energy at 100 yards and 1579 ft. lbs. of energy at 200 yards. they also have a 305 gr. penetrator round that has simular ballistics but it made to penetrate instead of expand!

He also said that anything that can be done with a 350 gr. bullet from a 45-70 or 450 Mar. can be done "equally well" with a 300 gr. bullet fired from a 444 Mar. "And if it cannot be done with a 444 out to 200 yards when loaded with the right bullet, you probably don't want to try doing it with any lever-action rifle of any caliber".

If someone wants a 45-70 or a 450 Mar. then get one. There both outstanding cartridges, but don't get one because you think the 444 Marlin is "underpowered" because it not. I'll try to find the article on the web so I can paste it here!

[Yukon Gold]

Before you decide - give this 3 part article a read.  The first part gushes love for the .444 marlin, the second two gives more data.

The article series is titled: ".444 Marlin- America's Most Versatile Big-Bore Parts I, II and III" respectively

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

 FYI - I have and love my .444 marlin, so my opinions may be biased-

[Mikey]

Oklahomahunter - go to the websites that Yukon Gold provided and that should answer the question for you, especially when coupled with the New York Hunter's post.  

When you see what Beartooth has done with the 444, and the accuracy it provides you from a typical lever action, you should have all the answers you need.  I ahve 3 Winchester Big Bores in 444, all the way from an 18.5" bbl to a custom 26" bbl, and won't give'm up fer nutin.  Mikey.

[glock29]

There isn't anything that the 444 can do better than a 45-70 provided you don't buy the weak 45-70 offerings from Rem, Win, or Fed.
For factory loads the Garrett, Buffalo Bore, and PMC+P offer more energy than the 444. The PMC load has the advantage of only being the cost of the loads from Winchester or Remington, but the performance of the Garrett & Buffalo Bore Loads. Expect around $21/box for the PMC, around $40+ for a box of Garrett.
If you handload, the 45-70 can be pushed in lever-guns to 450 Marlin level, which is around 500 ft/lbs higher than the 444. For modern rifles the 45-70 can be pushed to over 4200 ft/lbs of energy, which is on par with the 375 H&H !
This CANNOT be safely done with the 444.
The factory 45-70 bullet weights start where the premium 444 weights stop (300 grains).
Anything the 444 does can be done better (A LARGER HOLE) with the 45-70 !!!!

[mr.frosty]

Mr. Frosty........Let me know if you find someone in East Tennessee that stocks the PMC HA's.  I have the Boys in Benton order them for me.  They are by far the most accurate factory load that I've found in my 1895, but be prepared, they produce much more recoil than the Remingtons.  The limbsaver I had installed made them much more pleasant to shoot.  I didn't think I'd shoot many of them, but they shoot so well, that for the same price as the low velocity Remingtons, I just can't help it!  350 gn Horniday at 2125fps producintg 3000 ft. lbs of energy puts it in the same class as the Garretts, for a third of the price.......should be enough for anything on this continent!

Hey Charlie I'm still looking for a dealer who has that load cant wait to find a box or 2 just to try recoil no problem 2 locals supposed to carry pmc
dunno if they cant keep it or just cant get it

[victorcharlie]

Found a couple of boxes at Darr's in Chattanoga, but about 6 dollars a box  higher than Benton......haven't been to the place in Athens.......