Author Topic: .270 or .308? (Read 3395 times)

Nova · « **on:** January 01, 2005, 03:19:17 PM »

Well I just got my first handi, but i'm already thinking about which barrel to buy for my big game hunting needs. My handi is in .223 so i'm covered for the chucks and varmints. Now I would like to get a barrel for hunting mostly deer. Although I haven't to date, I may want to hunt bigger game such as black bear, elk, or mulies in the future. I have pretty much narrowed my options down to either the 270 or 308. I do not handload, so cheap ammo is a good thing. My shots on deer would be 200-250 yards max, most of them probably more towards 100-150 yards. Recoil is not a huge issue, but I want a caliber that won't punish me at the range. I'm not a very big guy, this is partly why I'm leaning away from the '06. Any opinions or other cailber suggestions are greatly appreciated. I would really like to hear from those who have had experience with either of these calibers in their handi.

Thanks

MSP Ret · « **Reply #1 on:** January 01, 2005, 03:23:25 PM »

The .308 fits the bill perfectly for what you are looking for....<><.... :grin:

marv · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2005, 03:30:49 PM »

It is pretty up to your choice :grin: Not much difference in them
270 might be a little at longer ranges, But 308 That used to shoot a lot
would reach out to 300 to 350 yards without any trouble, Had 22 in
barrel. Never fired a 270 much. never owned one. But ranges bout
the same. MHO Never bought factory ammo I am a reloader for
every thing from 219 zipper to 45-70. Six differant calibers in Handi's.
Marv

Duce · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2005, 04:07:28 PM »

Nova: I can't offer an opinion on the .308, don't own one, but last year picked up a Handi in .270 used. I've owned 2 other .270's a model 70 and a no. 1 Ruger, never cared much for either, and didn't think much of the round. I bought the Handi cause it was cheap, someone had tried to modify the stock and kinda botched it. When I took it on it's first range outing, while not a tack driver it was alright 2 M.O.A. and just wanted it for coyotes after deer season. This year when I checked the point of impact, it wandered around something awful. Found out the scope rail was loose, might be the reason it was sold. After tightening everything up, it would shoot M.O.A. and under, with 130 gr. Rem grn box, and a Simons 2X7 scope. Ol'Grubby's now one of my favorite knocking around rifles. Grabber'n Growl: :-) <>< Duce:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2005, 04:32:19 PM »

Nova:

Either rifle would suit your needs...the 308 is a great round fully capable of most of your hunting needs...and so to is the 270...it has always been a perineal favorite of mine...and I've taken a few deer with the caliber...the 270 will give you a trajectory advantage and one other thing...most bullet weights don't shift P.O.I. very much...from the 90 grainers up to the 160 grainers...cheap ammo...well I'm afraid you might be disappointed with the results if your leaning towards the 308...I've owned 2 of them both the bull barrel and also the standard contour...neither one liked the really cheap American or imported stuff...and would invariable spray all over the place with it or stick in the chamber...but...feed it the good stuff...and both would shine...with 1/2" groups with match ammo to 1-1/2" groups with standard hunting ammo...the 270 in the Handi...well...I just got one...and have yet to find out how it shoots...but I have high hopes for it...and if your (whichever you get)..shoots the Hornady Light Magnum ammo good...your almost on the same level as some of the other long range magnums...

Good Luck...and if you really can't decide..get both :wink:

Mac

Nuttinbutchunks · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2005, 04:34:04 PM »

I think the .270 would shoot flatter. I have a Savage 110 in that caliber, and I've hit 18' plates at 600 yards with it.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2005, 05:31:50 PM »

If you're going hunting then the 'cheap' ammo' is made by handloading.

Otherwise, with hunting bullets the .270 is probably every bit as cheap at Wal Mart as the .308 when they go on sale together. The .308 is cheaper when one shoots fmj's instead of hunting bullets.

The big difference between them, as I see it: the .270 will give significantly more velocity to bullets of relatively heavy sectional density than will the .308. The 130 gr' bullet in the .270 approximates the secitonal density of 162 gr's in the .308 caliber. The .270 bullet in that 130 gr' weight will reach over 3000 fps' by accident! The 165 gr' bullet out of a .308 will maybe reach 2750 fps. That is possibly the most powerful reason to choose the .270 over the .308. It's muzzle velocity will flatten the trajectory and increase the velocity and penetration at the target -- providing we are comparing similar projectile construction with similar sectional densities and somewhat similar ballistic coefficients in their respective projectiles.

Here's another hint: Guns and Ammo' mag, May 2002, Wayne van Zwoll tells of a client who drilled a "huge six-point bull" with a 130 gr' Hornady. That elk "reared up, then toppled backward and never twitched". That article dealt primarily with the .270 WSM, but I'd bet that since van Zwoll said, "a client once put a 130 gr Hornady....." that it was done with the orignal .270 Win' cartridge.

I'd go with the .270 for most hunting situations.

Good luck,

SS'

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2005, 06:32:25 AM »

Either the 270 or 308 would be great for what you want. They would be my 2nd and 3rd choices. I would choose the 30-06 over them though. If recoil is a problem that can be solved with a Sims recoil pad. But I would be happy with any one of these calibers.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2005, 06:57:58 AM »

.308

1. Cheap blasting ammo
2. Match grade ammo available
3. Far wider selection of ammo
4. Longer barrel life (difference is slight, but there)
5. Much more handloader friendly. (You may not load yet, but if you are seriously into guns, you will.)

marv · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2005, 07:03:40 AM »

I agree with Leftover DJ, He is pretty dang smart about guns,
reloading! Marv.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2005, 07:34:21 AM »

I would agree with all of DJ's statement with perhaps #5..

Quote

5. Much more handloader friendly. (You may not load yet, but if you are seriously into guns, you will.)

I've never found the 270 to be anymore difficult to load for over the 308...but..if DJ is talking about the amount and quality of components...then I respectfully agree...

Mac

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 02, 2005, 08:07:30 AM »

Another vote for the 308! :toast:

Lone Star · « **Reply #12 on:** January 02, 2005, 09:21:06 AM »

A comparison of both with their most popular loads at your maximum range is in order - the rest is just opinion. Using Remington data for both, and the same type of bullet, we see:

.270 - 130PSPCL - 3060 MV - 2510fps/1818fpe/-1.8" @ 200 yds
.308 - 150PSPCL - 2820 MV - 2263fps/1705fpe/-2.3" @ 200 yds

From the above it is clear that there is little practical down-range difference between the two for hunting deer-sized game. Any changes to one cartridge performance will be relatively the same with the other - unless someone purposely stacks the deck...

BTW, there are plenty of bullets available for both cartridges; a quick look shows from 90 - 180gr for the .270 and 100 - 220gr for the .308. Match, varmint and premium bullets, if you can't find one for your application then you aren't trying. There is no practical "bullet shortage" for the .270 except in the mind of the anti-.270 crowd...and certainly not for a hunting rifle for the use the orginal poster asked about. What one cartridge will do the other will do - except the .270 will do it with lighter bullets and slightly lower recoil. And the .308 is available in a short action, which isn't at issue here.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #13 on:** January 02, 2005, 11:33:19 AM »

Mac, I was mostly thinking about components, but the .270s I have loaded for demanded to be operated at full throttle. Might have been a peculiarity of the two I have loaded for, but for super accuracy. I had to load them as hot as I dared. With the Handi's extraction, that could be a real problem. The .308s I have had have been very tolerant.

T'other thing is that the .270 hits the powder jug a lot harder. My .308 charges run around 45 grains. My .270 charges ran around 60 grains.

Nova · « **Reply #14 on:** January 02, 2005, 03:02:05 PM »

Wow, I don't think I could ask for a more even response than that...haha. I guess this is gonna be a tough one. I'm still looking for a deciding factor in deciding, so I'll ask another question. When it comes to hunting larger game (bear, elk, mulies) what would you consider to be more valuable, the heavier bullet weight of the .308, or the speed and trajectory of the .270? Thanks alot for all the responses, I'm learning a lot more than I expected from this post.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #15 on:** January 02, 2005, 03:39:52 PM »

I still say go for the .308, it's no slouch in the speed department and a difference of .5" at 200 yards is nothing, if you can shoot that well ofhand my hat is off to you. In the "real world" as I often say, the animal will not know much difference. It really boils down to personal preferance, and I prefer the .308. How many of our military or police snipers use a .270? OK, now how many use the .308, case pretty well closed I would say. But get the one you prefer, thats the best one for you....<><.... :grin:

v8r · « **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2005, 04:54:12 PM »

Nova.I can't say there is much difference between a .270 and 30-06 as far as recoil goes.They are based on the same casing,just necked up or down depending on caliber.Either a .270 ,30-06 , 0r .308 would be excellent choices.I will say you can find a box of 30-06 ammo anywhere in north america,because it is a very popular chambering.Ammo is probably going to be the cheapest also.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2005, 06:56:41 PM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

.308

4. Longer barrel life (difference is slight, but there)
5. Much more handloader friendly. (You may not load yet, but if you are seriously into guns, you will.)

With #4 I greatly disagree, because I'd expect the .308 is much easier on barrels. It will possibly give 75 percent more accurate barrel life than the .270......especially if it's true that some of the .270's used had to be max'd out to be accurate. The 60 gr' load in the .270 may be proper (h4831?) and the 45 gr' load in the .308 may be proper (bl-c, or?) So, we see a significantly smaller bore burning 1/3 again as much powder......which works much harder on the barrel throat. But....does that matter to you? (It does to me, but many others don't seem to care)

Still, the original posting re: black bear, elk, or mulies now begs the question: Why compare the two cartridges at the range of 200 yds? The .270 is readily a 350 yd' mulie cartridge if the wind isn't a problem and the projectile is proper; and it's argueably a 300 yd' elk cartridge with the right bullet/powder charge. By talking about 200 yd' ballistics we've negated the real world differences between the two of them. No, I'm not saying you have to take 350 yd' shots at mulies; but you may have occasion to need that capability. After all, if you want to down mulies at 200 yds then all you need is a .243. Some people down their elk at 150 to 200 yds' with a .243!

If you go back to Remington's website and look at their long-range trajectories, and remaining bullet velocities, then you'll see why the .270 is better for the hunting you've asked about.

Just my opinion.

SS'

ps: want some good elk hunting articles? go to www.findarticles.com and type in "elk hunting" for your topic. see what Holt Bodinson will surprise you with as far as cartridges for that game in his article 'Elk Cartridges Yesterday and Today' from 'Guns' mag' in 2001.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 02, 2005, 07:18:34 PM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

Mac, I was mostly thinking about components, but the .270s I have loaded for demanded to be operated at full throttle. Might have been a peculiarity of the two I have loaded for, but for super accuracy. I had to load them as hot as I dared. With the Handi's extraction, that could be a real problem. The .308s I have had have been very tolerant.

T'other thing is that the .270 hits the powder jug a lot harder. My .308 charges run around 45 grains. My .270 charges ran around 60 grains.

DJ:
I kinda figured that's what you meant...but ...my results have been just the opposite...a lower velocity 270 load has always been more accurate for me...in the bolt guns...now a handi??? I surely intend to find out within the next month or two...I'll let you know how it turns out...gotta get a Ultra rail for this one so I can switch my scopes over without the hassel...

Mac

PS...Nova...like I said...get both...I don't think you'll be disapointed with either...Mac

safetysheriff · « **Reply #19 on:** January 02, 2005, 08:14:14 PM »

Quote from: Nova

When it comes to hunting larger game (bear, elk, mulies) what would you consider to be more valuable, the heavier bullet weight of the .308, or the speed and trajectory of the .270? Thanks alot for all the responses, I'm learning a lot more than I expected from this post.

Because you can get good sectional density (sd) with either caliber, but you get much more velocity -- even with a high sd' -- in that smaller .270 bore, I'd go with the .270 Win' for any critters up through elk. You'll get the good sd' for penetration on elk yet still have higher velocity for a better trajectory on white tails and mulies.

It might be true, that for dangerous North American game, like brown bear, that a somewhat slower, heavier bullet would be advantageous and make the .308 more desireable than the .270. The lower velocity would put less stress on a heavier bullet in the .308 caliber which would allow it to possibly penetrate deeper in that type of animal. This would be especially true for factory loads I'd think. But, for the elk and black bear game I'd go with the .270 over the .308.

But, once again, that's just my opinion. Remember, too, that with today's premium bullets you can get both velocity and penetration -- within reason -- more than you used to.

SS'

v8r · « **Reply #20 on:** January 03, 2005, 07:21:06 AM »

I still say go with the 30-06.My grandfather(who lives in Maine) told me once " A 30-06 will kill anything that walks in North America". I am sure he knows what he is talking about because he has killed some fairly large Moose and black bear with the 06.They don't go far if they don't fold up when you shoot them.All it takes is a good shot.If you plan on shooting a Grizzly, you better shoot him good.If you don't, it isn't going to matter what you shoot him with, because he is going to be pissed.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2005, 07:44:59 AM »

Quote from: v8r

I still say go with the 30-06.My grandfather(who lives in Maine) told me once " A 30-06 will kill anything that walks in North America". I am sure he knows what he is talking about because he has killed some fairly large Moose and black bear with the 06.They don't go far if they don't fold up when you shoot them.All it takes is a good shot.If you plan on shooting a Grizzly, you better shoot him good.If you don't, it isn't going to matter what you shoot him with, because he is going to be pissed.

Definatly...the grizzly will be P.O'd...but..I don't think Nova's asking about the 06'..

Quote

Now I would like to get a barrel for hunting mostly deer. Although I haven't to date, I may want to hunt bigger game such as black bear, elk, or mulies in the future. I have pretty much narrowed my options down to either the 270 or 308.

.....though if I was facing a grizzly...I think I would want a 30-06 over a 308...but I would rather have my 1895 45-70 loaded with some Garretts... :wink:

Mac

brown-trout · « **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2005, 03:27:12 PM »

get the 270....
the 270 Winchester is a 30-06 necked down to accept .277" bullets. Same case capacity.......the 308 is , essentially, a shortened 30-06 case...read LESS case capacity. The 308 came about as a compromise round in 1956 to satisfy those in the US military establishment who wanted to remain with the 30 caliber projectile, yet with less recoil than the then current 30-06 cartridge.
The sectional density of the 277 bullet is better than that of the 308....Especially when one considers that the 308 Winchester case cannot push its bullet nearly as fast....
And for folks that like to brag about cheap [/i]blastin' ammo....get an SKS for that.....a real 308 or 270 (or 300 Win or what have you...) is a hunting only proposition . Just my 2 cents.
BT

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2005, 03:37:06 PM »

Here's a great read on the merits of the .308 Win...kinda lays to rest any wishy-washy thoughts as far as I'm concerned as to the .270 or '06 being a contender in comparison...

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

safetysheriff · « **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2005, 07:18:58 PM »

quickd'

although i've read that article before, and am generally in agreement with it, i've seen where dr' palmisano (i believe) achieved some fantastic accuracy with a .30-06 in a Heavy benchrest rifle. Under .3 MOA' is what i saw -- somewhere. possibly on the wolfe publishing website, or one of the others -- or maybe in a Gun Digest, of all places.

if i could only have one rifle -- i'd want it to be a stainless steel in .308! but, for more power and reach in the hunting arena i'll take the .270 with handloads. for a rifle to pass on to posterity, i'll go with a .308, for a rifle that i might not mind re-barreling after hot rodding it, i'll go with a .270.

to each his own.

SS'

brown-trout · « **Reply #25 on:** January 04, 2005, 01:30:49 PM »

Ok, for what its worth, we're talking hunting rifles here. MOA is out the door on that one......how about Minute of Deer??? Or Minute of Elk??

While some shooter is able to put a 308 projectile into the same hole at 600 yards, this doesnt mean its superior to the 270 , nor the 06 for that matter.

The 270 Win is also rated to a higher pressure....65,000 vs 62,000 psi....Significant for the handloader.

In my opinion , for the serious hunter, get the 270 ....if you have to have the shorter case, get a 7mm-08.....same case as the 308 but with better penetration , given the cases potential. Like i stated earlier, the 308 was a cartridge of compromise , which should have no place in the Modern Day hunters vocabulary.
BT

BT

v8r · « **Reply #26 on:** January 04, 2005, 03:33:15 PM »

The only reason I brought up the 06 is because NOVA is under the impression that recoil is more than a .270.I have had both chamberings in rifles and I believe the recoil is comparable.The cases are the same.A 30 caliber bullet might weigh slightly more,but is bullet weight that much of a difference in these calibers of firearms.

bajabill · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2005, 06:01:15 PM »

I have loaded my 3006 from light loaded 125s to full 180s. there is a recoil difference with those extremes, but, I cant say there is a huge difference in recoil between a full load 130 and a full load 150. That would probably be the difference in recoil of a 270 and a 3006 - not hardly a major consideration. I doubt a 308 with 100 fps less of velocity than a 06 will be noticable at all. Also, I used powders that call for less powder weight, your not going to convince me you could tell the difference on the range or in the field.

In summary, dont make this decision based on textbook recoil estimates.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #28 on:** January 04, 2005, 08:11:29 PM »

am i invisible to you guys, already? :x you think i don't see what's going on here? :x

one word from SS' and everybody does as they dame well please! :eek:

let's put a lid on this charade and admit that the .270 is just plain more cartridge than the .308

how is the .270 better? higher working pressure

more velocity

higher sectional densities for deeper penetration

flatter trajectories all the way past 400 yds with 'normal' hunting bullets

ammo' in out-of-the -way places is reportedly easier to find than .308

handloading can bring out further velocity advantages over the .308

now, please, guys -- no more, huh! :shock: you're tearing the guts and the liver right out of me! :eek: :eek:

SS' :wink:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2005, 08:32:45 PM »

SS:

Have you ever used any of those Barnes 180 grainers for the 270?...I had to do a double take when I looked them up in the barnes#3 manual...out of a 24" barrel they are getting 2762 fps with 53 grains od reloader #22 and with 55 grains of H4831 their up to 2736 fps...the Barnes is rated at 0.335 SD....and a BC of 0.372...and the best they got with the 308 and a 220 grain...SD 0.331 and a BC of 0.305...was 2347 fps......sd to sd and bc to bc...I guess this is pretty close eh?..I don't know if the Handi can do these loads or not...probably not...but if they can....looks like the 270 takes this round...oh...one other question for ya...have you used any of Sierras 135 grain MatchKing bullets???

Mac