Author Topic: 1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30  (Read 905 times)

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Offline mag41vance

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« on: January 03, 2005, 01:55:40 PM »
I posted the question some time back as to the rifling in the .30-30 sb2.
 Most folks suggested it was 1-10, same as the .308 sb2; however, I checked mine and it is 1-12. My Handi was bought new in 1993.
 1-12 is the traditional choice from what I've read.

  Just thought I'd pass it along.
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Offline JPH45

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2005, 02:01:29 PM »
1-12 is the traditional choice for 30's not using anything as heavy as 200 grainers. A lot of complaints abound about 1-12 308's. I wonder if NEF made a decision to use one twist rate in all their 30's to simplify thier manufactuering processes, as the info on the 1:10 twist rate comes from them.
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Offline handirifle

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2005, 02:51:29 PM »
Fellas you might check with NEF, my 30-30's are 1-10 and that is the posted twist rate in tha FAQ section.  Never heard of any NEF 30 cals using anything slower.
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Offline marv

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Twist in 30-30
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2005, 03:48:44 PM »
I check mine best I could with a tight patch on a rod, came up
 with 1in 10 1/2"  I think all 94 winchesters are 1 in 12.
 I have Mod 88 Winchester in 308 it is 1in 12,
 just 2 cents, Marv.

Offline mag41vance

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2005, 02:56:45 PM »
I checked mine with a rod and tight patch. Every time it rotated exactly 1 x in a 12 inch run. I purchased my rifle new in 1993, so I don't know if they've changed since Marlin became their daddy. Curious for sure because most folks believe theirs to be 1 in 10" based on published information.
    JPH, Why don't you and  a few others check your barrels to see for sure.
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Offline quickdtoo

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2005, 03:14:56 PM »
I just checked mine, 1 in 10", don't know how old my barrel is, got it off ebay. It's marked SB2.
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Offline MSP Ret

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2005, 03:29:40 PM »
:D, OK guys I can almost get into this now, as soon as my new to me but gently used 30-30 barrel ( :-D ) gets here I will check the twist and post it here. Special thanks to lik2hunt, foxcaller and marv for making all this possible and to all that wished me well in finally getting my 30-30 barrel....<><....:grin:
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Offline JPH45

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2005, 03:45:36 PM »
Vance, mine is 1:10, I purchased it last year serial is NR319XXX. Could be the previous years manufacture, I don't know, the shop seems to sell a fair number of these. It is definately an SB2 made during Marlins ownership.

On a lighter note, now that I've run a patch down my perfectly dirty bore for that most exellent first shot placement....If I miss my deer can I blame you???? :roll:  :grin:  :-D
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Offline JPH45

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2005, 04:14:43 PM »
I didn't finish......

I'm curious as to why you mant to know about the twist rate. If you are going to try for heavier bullets, don't worry, Sam Fadala and others have for quite sometime taken the Winchester 190 Silver Tip from 303 Savage ammo and loaded them in their Winchester 94's, duplicating the 1950 fps of the Savage with 32 grains of IMR 3031 and then went and shot themselves an elk with their 30-30. The 94 uses the 1:12 twist.

I've never calculated the twist for a 30, but I wonder if the 1:10 doesn't come from the 30-40 Krag which was originally issued with a 220 grain bullet at some 2200 fps, (this is a really long bullet) and the 30-03 was the same bullet at some 2400 fps. The 30-03 (I'm getting into dangerous territory for my memory here) was the same basic case as the 30-06, difference being a slightly longer neck and the heavier bullet. The Germans switched to a lighter bullet in the '98 Mauser, a 170 grainer I believe (If I'm wrong I'm sure I will be corrected, cause it could have been to a 150 from a 170) and we, not willing to let the Krauts (If I might, by the way I am one....) upstage us, modified our ammo to use a 150 grainer at 2700 fps or so. The modification became the famous 30-06 (year of adoption, of course) It strikes me that they kept the twist rate the same, as there was no need to retool for that as the 1:10 stabilized the 150 just fine. This all occured in an arms race that depending on how one sees it didn't end untill the collaspe of the Soviet Union, and ran well over 100 years and encompassed at least 5 wars. In this arms race we went from single shot breech loading  BP cartridge rifles to the AR15 and AK74.

I easily get 2245 fps with Noslers 180 Partition, and am sure the Speer MagTip would give quite the same velocity using 33.7 grains of WC 846 and it doesn't show any excessive signs on the primer, in fact the edge radius of the primer appears as unfired. The primer is CCI Large Rifle, so there ain't nothing special there
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Offline JPH45

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2005, 05:38:02 PM »
Vance, I went back and checked that 3031 data for the heavy bullets, ( I don't trust my memory anymore) R.H. VanDenburg in the 18th edition of Handloader Digest give 29.5 grains and the 190 Winchester Silver Tip  for a velocity of 2024 fps. He gives 30.5 grians of 3031 for 2054 with the Mag Tip, 31 grains with a 170 bullet gives 2120, 31.5 gives 2175 and 32 gets above 2200 but begins to show excessive pressure in the 94. He doesn't say if the signs are flattened primers and case streaching, or if the action is beginning to unlock. The Winchest factory load of the 190 grain 303 Savage listed a velocity of 1950 fps.

Interestingly, he quotes from Townsend Whelen who apparently used the 30-30 for quite a bit of hunting, Whelen says in 1901 and '02 he used the 30-30 to take many mule deer, sheep and goats at ranges out to 150 yards, and on his last hunt used one to take an Imperial Elk. Of the 30-30 Whelen is quoted "The 30-30 is not to be despised as an all around rifle"
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Offline Airsporter

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2005, 11:20:38 PM »
JPH45, I have an old Lyman manual lying around someplace.  If memory serves me, they mentioned the 190 grain (303 Savage) as the most accurate bullet they tested in the 30-30.

Offline mag41vance

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2005, 09:05:41 AM »
The reason I was curious about the twist rate, is that most published .30-30 data is for 1-12 twist, and I guess when comparing published stuff with reality, it helps to know all the things that go in to making a good round.

 The thing thats strange to me is that my 1-12 barrel shoots 150gr spirepoint bullet like a lazer with IMR4350 , and Marv's 1-10 barrel also likes that combination.
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Offline MSP Ret

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2005, 09:16:52 AM »
:-D , Well here I am, finally part of the 30-30 crowd...all things come to he who waits! If you guys missed an earlier post the barrel came yesterday!!! FAST shipping, Mailed from Arizona on Monday, delivered to Cape Cod on Wednesday!! Can't beat that USPS Priority Mail,  thanks again foxcaller for shipping so promptly!!!. I checked the twist today and mine is a 1 in 10" barrel....<><.... :grin:
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Offline quickdtoo

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2005, 09:21:56 AM »
Hurray for MSP Ret!!!! :D  :grin:
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Offline JPH45

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1 in 12" rifling in the NEF .30-30
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2005, 04:20:25 PM »
Vance, I'm not surprised by that in the lest. Either twist will do to stabilize a 150 grainer, and that bunk about over stabilization is just that, bunk. It'd be like over balancing a tire, or being too balanced when you are standing up, how do you do that? A bullet can be torn apart by centrifugal force, but only a few such are on the market and have to be driven above 4000 fps in 1:7 barrels, we are of course talking about .22 centerfires here. I recently read a very good article on this subject, but my memory has let the source fade away. If I remember, I'll let you know. Basically the author addressed gyroscopic effects, which is what we give a bullet when we spin it, and a bullet that would become unstable from too great an rpm would be unstable, in fact unshootable (from the standpoint of hitting what you are shooting at) at any speed/ rate of twist.  

A bullet that is out of balance is out of balance, and no speed of rotation will balance it. In fact, the more unbalanced a bullet is, the more it will deviate (yaw) from the flight path. Higher rates of twists have the effect of multiplying the out of balance condition. That is why we are so concerned with bullets being of equal weight. The more even a group of bullets are in weight, the more equally the mass is distributed in the bullet and the greater the likelyhood of their being "balanced". When we spin a bullet, we are not balancing it, we are stabilizing it around it's center of mass. If the center of mass is off the centerline of the flight path, then the bullet yaws around the flight path and becomes a flyer on the target.

It is the same as fletching on an arrow, the fletching makes the arrow spin which stablizes it along its flight path. Strip the fletching off an arrow and you will see what happens to a bullet with no stabilizing force.  It is not a question of balance, it is a question of gyroscopic stablization. Once that is achieved, it doesn't matter how fast you spin it, stabilized is stabilized.

I suspect that benchrest shooters who are using slower twists with lighter for caliber bullets are doing so to gain velocity a sresult of loosing rotation friction in the bore as well as staying in the concept of deforming a bullet as little as possible allows it to be more accurate. How much difference this really makes is measured in thousandth's of an inch, it ain;t gonna matter where the rubber meets the road or more to the point where the bullet hits the game. However, stick a 220 grainer in that 1:12 and you would likely get funny oblong holes in your target, if you could hit it at all, as required twist is a function of bullet length not weight.
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