Author Topic: mechanical scale/lee dipper (Read 1030 times)

Bart Solo · « **on:** January 04, 2005, 03:48:59 PM »

Long ago when I was even dumber I bought a Lee Loader in 6mm and some IMR -4350 and started loading using the dipper provided by Lee. I didn't have a scale. After about 20 years I loaded up some of 100 grain bullets last week and fired them on Sunday. They worked ok. Shot a couple of inches lower at 75 yards than the factory loads. On Saturday I bought a Lee reloading kit. With it came a lee safety powder scale. I set the scale to zero. It seems to work ok. Tonight I thought I would experiment with the scale. I took out the powder and the dipper and ran a number of tests on the scale. They all showed that the standard dipper contained 32.9+ grains. The Lee Loader instructions indicate that the dipper is supposed to dip 37 grains of IMR-4350. Now do I believe the scales or the dipper? If I believe the scale and it is off 4 grains, if I load up 40 grains as indicated on the scale and the scale is wrong, I will be close to 44 grains, which is toward the top of the RCBS chart which indicates 45 grains is the maximum load for a 100 grain bullet using IMR-4350. If the scale is right, 37 grains will be a pretty light starting load to work up. I have no reason to doubt the scale and the dipper is consistently loading 32.9+ grains so I don't have any reason to think the dipper is not being pulled through the powder properly. Is it possible that Lee cheated low on the old dipper (a 20 year old product liability thing)? Is it possible that both the dipper and scale are right but the 20 year old powder has lost moisture content over time? If that is the case should I treat the dipper as actually loading 37 grains and move up accordingly? That is load some with 34 grains according to the scale and treat it like it was loading 38 grains. Then move up. That would mean I would top out at 41 grains according to the scale to remain below the 45 grain maxim. Questions, questions, questions.

goodconcretecolor · « **Reply #1 on:** January 04, 2005, 04:23:28 PM »

I would go by the scale. The dippers are intentionally made to err on the light side for safety( Though that amount of error does seem excessive).
I calibrate mechanical and electronic scales as part of my job and mechanical balances only get out of calibration if broken or dirty. You would do well to locate some calibration weights. A local scale distributor may be willing to calibrate/verify your scale for less than the price of buying some weights(they can be pricey). ALso if a copy of the Lee reloading manual did not come with your kit, get one. It has a lot of useful information on the dippers and the safety scale.

Dand · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2005, 07:42:42 PM »

Lyman and possibly other major reloading tool makers offer a check weight set for a modest price. In my experience, some people can use the Lee dippers with relative repeatable precision (not me) like you have indicated, but are not necessarily accurate as to advertised charge thrown. Same for Lee Auto disks - I use one of these a lot - but ALWAYS check the throw weight with a scale. Invariably, the cataloged throw weight is higher than my actual measurements - so I pick the disk that gets the weight I want. Much of my powder is 10+ yrs old and here in AK we have pretty low humididity so maybe accounts for some difference.

I started on Lee dippers but after a more experienced friend showed me how inconsistent I was with them, I've gone with a scale - Redding, Lyman, Hornady. Now I strongly recommend a good scale to any beginnner. The Lee is probably fine but I also like to weigh bullets and or cases now and then and like the greater range of the above named brands.

Duffy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2005, 08:12:06 PM »

Different lot's of powder over the years have different densitys and that's why you get different readings. I have some old 296 and some new. In my powder measure the new throws 1.5 grains more than the old lot with the same setting.

jgalar · « **Reply #4 on:** January 05, 2005, 01:42:41 AM »

All the powders that I have checked using the dippers and other Lee powder measuring tools have weighed lighter than published weights.

The Lee scale is accurate, just clumsy to use. To verify either get check weights or if you know someone else who reloads weigh an item with both scales.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #5 on:** January 05, 2005, 04:46:56 AM »

Thanks for all the good advice. What I think I will do is assume the scale is accurate and work up slowly from 37 grains. Even if it is off the 4 grains it is still below the recommended maximum. There are only about 80 or so charges left in the can, so I will be changing powder soon anyway. My guess is that while my dipper technique is consistent, it probably is consistently low and over time there has been a modest reduction in mosture content.

The scale is brand new and hasn't been damaged in any way. I agree that the lee scale is a little awkward.

dave375hh · « **Reply #6 on:** January 05, 2005, 07:43:12 AM »

Just weigh a few jacketed bullets most are within one grain of the wt on the box. I'm betting on the scale's accuracy but this should end your doubts. Nobody should reload without a scale! It's foolish economy at best. OK I'm off the soapbox.

superhornet · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2005, 09:30:00 AM »

I would ask what is the number on the dipper you were using ?? Was it out of an old kit?? The modern dipper kit shows IMR4350----Dipper 2.5=34gr. 2.8=38.1gr. 3.1=42.2 I have loaded thousands of rounds using the Lee Dippers. One thing for sure, you are never going to get an over charge, as has been said, they actually load on the low side. Having said that, I have never seen one with the spread you have..Have seen them off by 1.5 grain. They are good for a quick plinking load and I have shot a few head of whitetail using them.......Deer don't know the difference between a dipper and a scale....IMHO

Bart Solo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 05, 2005, 04:32:52 PM »

The number is 167. It claims a charge of 37 grains of IMR 4350. The loader is ancient. The date on the card say 1969. I remember walking from my old office in downtown Kansas City to the gun shop where I bought it. I haven't worked there since 1976. My guess is was sometime around 1975. In the period 1975 - 1985 I loaded hundreds of rounds. Since then not so many. When you are trying to save money and pay for a house and raising a baby you use the tools at hand. A scale wasn't one of them. I have a scale now.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #9 on:** January 05, 2005, 04:47:18 PM »

I just weighted 4 100 grain Hornady spire point bullets. The scale indicated between 99.7 and 99.8 grains for each--closer to .8 than .7 on three of them. I guess that answers the question of whether the scale is accurate.

PS, I just weighed some 100 grain Hornady btsp bullets. Same result. 99.7, 99.8 grains. The bullet weight tolerances seem to be less than .3 grains.

legolas · « **Reply #10 on:** January 06, 2005, 09:51:50 AM »

RB
Just want to confirm your hunch. I have been using Lee's Auto Powder measure which uses 24 variable fixed cavity bushings. If my recollection is right (I am at work and on my break right now), Dick Lee in his book list the .49 bushing to dump 4.5 grains of Unique. My Lee scale tells me that this cavity is dumping 4.0 grains. I had to use the 0.53 bushing to obtain 4.4 grains of Unique. The 0.53 is supposed to give 4.9 grains of Unique. My method is to dispense and weigh the charge weight 5 times and get the average. If there is one reedeming quality about the Lee Auto Disk Powder Measure it is that the dispensed weight were off by as little as 0.1 grains +/-.
Since this was a fixed cavity bushing, I think it is comparable to your dipper. These are tools that yield pretty consistent results especially when paired with a consistent technique. But as some suspected, the charge weights that they throw are listed on the heavy side when they are in fact dispensing a lighter charge weight.

charlie45 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2005, 01:59:11 PM »

:eek: after buying four sets of reloading dies from lee, and a press set, i bought a electronic scale with test weighs. i find that all of the dippers throw light. the lee scale is right on if!! you calibrating it before each use.
set the empty pan on the scale before each use and check for 0. if not 0 adjust per instructions to 0.
best deal buy electronic scale for$99.00 or less calibrate at beginning of each use and be sure.