Who's had luck with a Carcano?

[kombi1976]

Each time I read a post bashing Carcanos I can't help thinking that with the 6.5 cal cartridge they use and light weight build that there must be some out there that are actually nice little rifles. This suspicion was further fueled by a couple of guys I've spoken to recently who both said they were fun rifles to play with. Furthermore they'd loaded them with .264 cal bullets, not .268, and had been very pleased by the performance and accuracy.
Now I'm aware that there are quite a few which have stocks that fit quite appallingly and that others even had misfitting barrels but that aside, is there anyone out there who has a nice specimen that they've enjoyed using on the range and even perhaps in the field?  :roll:

[His lordship.]

I had a Model 38 Carcano short rifle, made in 1941 by Beretta, for 8 years.  This rifle was particular about ammo, loved NORMA brand, and the Italian army surplus that came with the trade, a real tack driver.  Did not like the German made surplus, or any other brands as well.

With the trade the gun came with the stock cut down for a youth, and 3 boxes of 1936 dated army ammo,  some salt/peppery bore damage, but strong rifling otherwise.  I installed a brand new stock, and touched up the bluing, collected the clips to go with it and was planning to handload the ammo.  It was a nice shooter, can be shot single shot without clips, while the butt plate was a bit narrow, the 6.5 did not kick much so it was a pleasure to shoot.

They seem to have a light weight, cheap look to them, but when I took it apart to install the new stock, it was a well made and thought out gun, I was surprised as it did not seem that way at first.

I sold in in 1993 when I got laid off, and before I started handloading, I really wanted a nice long barrel of the Carcano, instead of the carbine, as I was into the bigger guns.  The long versions are really rare, I don't know why?  If I had the same deal put before me again, sure, I would buy another Carcano.  Fun shooter, and different from the big ol' Mauser 98'. :-)

[Mikey]

Kombi - in the mid-60s I worked for a private security firm in Peoria, Ill., that accepted a contract from the warren Commission to test 6.5mm Carcano rifles of the type that allegedly killed JFK, to determine is siad rifles were actually accurate enough to do that type of shooting.

We tested dozens, as they were readily available at the time.  Tested some of the longer barrelled jobs too.  The M38s were a hodgepodge of quality - some shot very well, some shot well, some were quite inaccurate.  We used a variety of ammo, including lots of Winchester mil-spec production using a 160 gn bullet, some Norma ammo using the same weight hunting load, and bunches of mil-surp ammo.  The sectionalized bullet that was supposed to have been recovered on JFKs gurney (supposedly having passed through his body???), was a plant.  Those slugs all came apart at the end of the barrel when we tested them, and we had come to understand they were used for perimeter defense and broke up to send 7 pellets downrange.

Accuracy wise, I purchased two of the most accurate I tested, for $10 each and a bunch of ammo for a lot less than that.  I used those rifles to hunt with in Colorado until I found I needed a bigger rifle, but they worked just fine with that 160 gn load on game up to the size of small Elk.

The rifle itself is an interesting design - it is a combination of both the Mauser and the Arisaka designs, both of which are very strong.  In all the testing I saw and all the rifles I saw fired, none ever came apart.  Later, even with reloads, and especially with reloads, my two were very accurate and that sold me on the effectiveness of the 6.5 bore.  Some may have that 'cheap' look to them but they are rugged little hunks of rifle.  The Norma ammo is good quality and uses the proper sized bullet (.264-.265 as I recall).  Some of the mil-spec stuff might not be of sufficient quality to be accurate.  

Now that Graf and sons are producing new ammo, some of those oldies might shoot again.  Yes, during wartime production you often had a poor fit 'twixt' stock and action, but bedding the stock can help that.  HTH.  Mikey.

[S.S.]

I have never seen one in even good condition!
The ones I have seen would have had difficulty
hitting a dinner plate at 75 meters.
I do not believe that Kennedy was killed by one
simply because they are so innacurate.
Unless he at that time was truely one of the most un-lucky
men on earth.

[His lordship.]

When I got my Model 38 Carcano I did look at the historical possibility of this type of rifle being used in the JFK assasination.  My first issue with the rifle is the stiff action, it is not very smooth, but with good upper body strength, and training, which Lee Harvey Oswald had, he was an ex-marine, that stiffness limit could be worked around.  My rifle was also low mileage, which could have accounted for the stiffness.

Another advantage that Oswald had was a scope.  I only used the military sites on mine, but they shot to the point of aim, and I thought they were good.  Whether Oswald had a Carcano, or a Remington 700 custom accurized, those moving shots at someone's head that he made would have been tough.

The Carcano Model 38 has a nice balance to it, it's a short rifle, handy like a 30-30 Winchester lever action 94.  If I had mounted a good scope on mine, and handloaded I am sure I could have had a ragged one hole group at 100 yards.

We are also judging a series of rifles that were last made in the 1940's.  With so many people not liking the Italian soldiers as fighting men many of these rifles were neglected in someone's garage or basement and allowed to rust.  I have seen lots of Japanese guns that ended up that way as well.  My Carcano had surface rust on it and required finish work, there was also faint overspray of white paint on it, so it was obviously not regarded well in someone's house.

I remember seeing some of the carbines with the attached bayonet in the early 90's, but did not buy one as the cost of the ammo was really a big problem as you were either lucky to find military surplus at the gun shows, or buy the NORMA brand which was going for around $27.00 a box then.

[kombi1976]

I have never seen one in even good condition!
The ones I have seen would have had difficulty
hitting a dinner plate at 75 meters.
I do not believe that Kennedy was killed by one
simply because they are so innacurate.
Unless he at that time was truely one of the most un-lucky
men on earth.

But how many have you actually seen fired or shot yourself?
My post was asking who'd had success with one.
There are plenty of service rifles that came out of the factory or due to abuse in the field ended up very inaccurate.
Most firearms though aren't inherently inaccurate and the Carcano was designed by Mannlicher, who are renowned for their good rifles.
No.5 SMLE Jungle Carbines are highly valued and yet they aren't all that accurate in comparison to other SMLE rifles.
They also tend to kick more due to their lighter overall weight.
Does this make every No.5 a bad rifle......by no means.

[S.S.]

I worked in Ballistics with multiple law enforcement agencies.
There are not many models of weapons that I have not put
lots of rounds through. I actually singled out the Carcano many
years ago because I do not believe one killed Kennedy. I have
tested many of them and It would have been a Miracle or Fate
if one could hit a moving target. I have had far more weapons
training than Oswald had in the Marines, so I would rate myself
as at the very least as good of a shot as he was.
Don't get me wrong, I see no problem with having a Carcano
for it's historical value, and if you have one that shoots well
consider yourself a fortunate man. There is nothing wrong
with the cartridge, I just don't care for the rifles that fired them.

[kombi1976]

Fair call, S.Sumner.
Actually, in a related subject, that's one of the reasons I like the GrayBeard forums.
There are so many experienced individuals like yourself that regularly have input on the topics posted and it really helps give understanding and insight to both the way particular firearms work and their suitability for certain tasks.
This is especially good for a rank amateur such as myself who(and I'm actually ashamed to say this) has only been shooting for 3 years due to growing up in the city and is on a pretty limited budget between a young family and college loans.  :oops:
Guys such as yourself & Mikey have given me sensible tips and I've also been reassured that it's o.k. to want to have a go at the more unusual cartridges.  :-)
It's a sad thing that the big companies like Remington and Winchester would have us believe that only the more modern rounds they chamber in their new rifles are the ones worth using.
The Aussie market, being so small, has even less choices, being constantly bombarded with .223, .243, .270, .308, 30-06 and few other choices between.  :?
New firearms also tend to be close to the $1000 mark for a decent product so you can understand me getting frustrated when I have to fork out a grand of my hard earned(before scope of course) and still can't get something a bit different.  :roll:
So being a bit of a closet rebel anyway(I'm a VW enthusiast & that usually means quirky), I've tended to look past the obvious cartridges & rifles and look into more unusual ones.
Since I already reload it's given me more possibilities too.
Anyhow, that about spells out why I'm asking if a Carcano is a reasonable proposition.
The other consideration was a T38 Arisaka in 6.5x50 but brass is really hard to get and really expensive because I could probably only get Norma cases although the Arisaka action is allegedly a really cracker and super strong.
Of course, because of that the T38s tend to be more expensive.
But I digress.  :wink:

[kevin.303]

i'll digress even further. speaking of oswald has anyone read the book "Mortal Error" by Bonar Menninger? about a gunsmith and parttime detctive who ivestigated whete JFK was killed with a 6.5 Carcano by oswald or with a differednt gun from a different position. the infamous grassy knoll.

[kombi1976]

i'll digress even further. speaking of oswald has anyone read the book "Mortal Error" by Bonar Menninger? about a gunsmith and parttime detctive who ivestigated whete JFK was killed with a 6.5 Carcano by oswald or with a differednt gun from a different position. the infamous grassy knoll.

That was definitely an "act of digression" as defined by the Geneva convention.  :?
We're teetering on the point of war here!!  :eek:
Oh, wait, no one's had any intelligence alleging the existence of "weapons of mass discussion".  :-D

[S.S.]

I have a T38 in 6.5x50 also,
GRAF makes brass for it that runs
around $30 (U.S.) per 100.
So far I have been very pleased
with their stuff.

[kombi1976]

S.Sumner, does anyone make a scope mount for the T38, either scout mount or drill-&-tap unit?